Ruskies and Canuks buy GM

[Father Ted]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8074834.stmSo what does that mean for the Astra?

Magna, backed by a Russian bank and Russian truckmaker GAZ, says it will invest more than 500m euros into Opel

[pogweasel]

Quality. I am looking forward to seeing the 2010 Volga rolling off the production line at Ellesmere Port and the carparks outside IBC Luton busting full of UAZ 4x4 vans.

[AnthonyG]

GAZ involvement is worrying, they shat on LDV, and are run by that Deripaska 'oligarch' twat who had (hopefully not in a biblical sense !)Lord Mandy and George Osborne on his yacht. IIRC Magna tried to buy Chrysler off Daimler Benz 2 years ago, they are probably glad they didn't - Chrysler's a much bigger mess than Opel-Vauxhall. Opel products are OK, they just need to work out how to sell them without high discounts.Still Fiat would have resulted in ultimate shuttage of the UK plants and a massive product overlap. The Vivaro van and Renault tie up would ultimately have gone too, meaning the end of Luton, as presumably Fiat make a competitor product in conjunction with PSA.Why they are still interested in Saab when they can't make a go of Lancia I do not know. Not sure Alfa is actually turning a profit either, although I hope so for the long term future of the marque.Fiat will have more than enough to do sorting out Chrysler, and they still need eventually to work out how to make a Fiat bigger (more profitable) than the Grande Punto that will actually sell in volume to people outside Italy. Still I could see why Fiat went for it with Opel, it's not every day control of a credible European player (i.e. not MG Rover or Saab) is basically given away in a fire sale. Seeing an opportunity, taking a risk and going for it is all part and parcel of business, and can really transform a company if it goes right.P.S They'll need to invest a lot more tha 500m euros over the long term if the are serious - MGR couldn't make a go of it with £500m nearly 10 years ago (although shockingly piss poor management didn't help ) Hopefully Magna rather than GAZ will be in the lead, as Russians don't understand how to make and sell consumer products at all. Industrial stuff like generators they are much better at, a legacy of the Soviet command economy days.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I dont know why GAZ aren't being told to f##k off in view of their record with LDV. They've got no money anyway, all they're 'bringing to the party' is a factory.

[Pete-M]

As far as I'm concerned the quicker Vauxhall dies, the better.

 

Quite like the Omega, loved my Carlton GSi 24v, was a fan of the Senator / Royale / Monza but GM Europe have not made a single FWD car that has given me even a millisecond of "Oooh, want".

 

Not a good state of affairs for a huge car company. Other than the Koreans, everyone does something I like.

 

It's like Rover all over again, but without the sheer class and amusement of the ZT 260. Huge company, lots of people like their stuff, but GM keep insisting on building stodge. Ok, to give GM their due, at least Corsas and Vectras are reliable but they're shite to drive. Dumbed down to the lowest denominator, made to be driven by people in comas, sneeze factor steering etc. Its as if Vauxhalls are designed to be as enjoyment-free as possible. Even the super-hot GSi Vectra 3.2 jobbies were shit to drive. Quick, but shit.

 

I won't miss 'em. I've been waiting too long for this to happen.

[Mr Lobster]

It does seem that Vauxhall is building dependable but dull cars and offers nothing intersting or different. The whole marketing message is one of reliable but boring. I mean FFS that Meriva / Zafira ad with the two little twats in it, was that the best they could manage? What will this mean for the future? Well, I'd like to see them drop the Vauxhall brand and become Opel, might give them the opportunity to lose some of that image they have and hopefully try and build cars that are more than just bland products and become the sort of thing people actually want. We got the oddly named and largely meaningless VX220 roadster, in Euroland they got the Opel Speedster. Whether the thing is any good or not doesn't really matter but I know which sounds most appealing.Otherwise it's probably just going to be Rover all over again. I wouldn't think 500m Euros buys that much when you have a range of cars to develop.

[Station]

Of course Vauxhall is going to disappear, in both marque and production lines. It's okay for Lord Mandleson to jet around claiming the glory, etc, but in 6 - 12 months when the headlines are 'Vauxhall Factories to close', he's done absolutely nothing, he's probably done more harm going to the press with his 'I'm confident blah blah blah'. Cunt.There can't be much left in the form of 'owning of brands' and 'mass production' is there?

[gtd2000]

We got the oddly named and largely meaningless VX220 roadster, in Euroland they got the Opel Speedster. Whether the thing is any good or not doesn't really matter but I know which sounds most appealing.

With a Proton Persona for a daily driver I find the thought of both of them quite appealing

[Station]

We got the oddly named and largely meaningless VX220 roadster, in Euroland they got the Opel Speedster. Whether the thing is any good or not doesn't really matter but I know which sounds most appealing.

VX220 is an awesome car, allegedly 'better' than the Elise, and you can get a turbo. I think 'VX' sounds better than the Speedster, it also relates to heritage, there have been a few "VX" monikered cars in the past. No-one has done something like a Lotus Carlton either. And Vauxhall brought over the Monaro, you can't get an Opel Monaro.

[Mr Lobster]

No, I'm not disputing if the VX220 is any good or not, I don't doubt for a second that I would very much like it. I just think the name 'Speedster' sounds better than 'VX220' in the minds of the public.Point taken on the Monaro though

[Pete-M]

I believe the VX220 is a bit of a beast, and I love the Holden Monaro, but the Astra GSi? No thanks. Vectra GSi, still no. The Insignia looks like a badly executed Merc rip-off. Front looks fine, but the back end looks bloody awful to me.I drove a current shape Corsa SXi thing a couple of hundred miles last year and absolutely despised it. Even on the motorway - the one place Vauxhalls are actually adequate - it felt sleepy and as if all the controls were hiding something. Combined with truly abysmal visibility and extraordinarily gormless steering it wasn't a pleasurable thing at all. I ended up just wringing its neck just in an effort to get out sooner.The basic feeling I always get in a Vauxhall is that the car thinks it has to protect the driver from enjoying themselves. Everything just puts you off wanting to drive it. I've covered my thoughts on the Vectra elsewhere. The word 'crap' comes into it a lot.One day, someone will have the balls to make a proper 'normal' car again. Something as lethal as a 205 GTi 1.9 or Sunbeam Lotus. Fast, anti-social and enjoyable. Something where absolutely nothing is 'soft touch', wind up windows, no central locking, no ABS or traction control, RWD preferably, easy to work on and fun to tweak.I don't want a billion airbags, cruise or cupholders in a car. Just a lot more feel, a lot less squidge, and a whole world less politically correct. There are loads of mega-reliable big power engines about, why can't one manufacturer go "Tell ya what, here's something the size of a Fiesta with 350 bhp, RWD, an LSD and a fruity 'track only' exhaust and induction option. It's not comfy, it's not quiet, but it's more fun than a Mk2 Escort and we'll sell you all the bits to make it into a tarmac rally weapon for buttons. Oh, it needs a service every 10k miles whether you cane it everywhere or not, but you can do that yourself."

[gallondrunk]

.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

In typical GM style, they chronically mismanaged Vauxhall. What they SHOULD have done is to take control (i.e buy out) the dealers, dump the Vauxhall name and its council image and rebadge everything as Opel, beginning with a new model. With the exception of a couple of UK built cars, they're all German anyway. There hasn't been any serious design work in the UK for centuries.In the world we now live in, everything has to have a Badge. Just being a good car is no longer enough, and GM stuff is okay these days. They have problems, but what car doesn't?The problem is quite simple. 20 years ago, a Merc 190E or 318i with wind up windows and bugger all options was £11'000. A decent spec 1.8 Cavalier with roof, windows, stereo, 'lloys was about £8000. Vauxhall man knew his place and Merc weren't bothered about shifting big volumes - they didn't need to.In 2009 however, the most basic C Class Benx has air, windows, alloys, roof etc. £25'000 to you Sir, and it's a very good car with decent resale value. Or a Vectrum/Insipidia for £21'000?After 3 years it's not worth a cup of cold piss.That's a tough one, eh?On another note, I'm glad Fiat didn't get involved. GM would have dragged them under in short order, and Fiat has a stronger image than Vauxhall. They just didn't need it.

[Pillock]

Trouble is, VX (and Opel) make mediocre cars that aren't as well screwed together as a German, aren't as stylish as an Italian, and aren't as cheap as a French. They're pretty British to be honest, in that they sort of do everything to some extent without excelling.Ford have really picked up recently, the new Mondeo is honest-to-god one of the best assembled cars I've seen, especially since MB is going downhill and BMW are disappearing up their own Bangle-designed arse. Similarly the original Focus set new standards for handling, and the Fiesta is simply the best small car you can buy.As such they've been able to put prices up but they're still worth it. My ma picked up a new-from-the-dealer 57 Fiesta for £9k all in and it's got aircon, electric stuff, a decent engine, alloys yada yada. I'd rate it as capable as, if not better than a Polo of the same vintage which IMHO is one of the generally accepted qualitry small cars - with the price premium to match. Vauxhall are staying in the same price range as Ford and increasing year on year but their stuff just isn't worth it. I've sat in 56 plate Corsas and had bits of trim come away in my hand. I've seen 54 plate Astras with electrical issues the Italians would be proud of, and a 54 Vectra that just looks at home inside the dealer it's been there that often. Alternator, sensors, gearbox, alarm, ECU - all seemingly made of chocolate.

[Guest]

In typical GM style, they chronically mismanaged Vauxhall.

Hang on, didnt GM buy Vauxhall in the 1920s? Surely long enough to sort the image out

[Albert Ross]

I work at a Vauxhall dealer. They are all shit. Except the Agila really, and the diesel Meriva (Isuzu engined) so basically the sooner they go to the wall they do us all a favour, and I get to hit the dole queue.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Trouble is, VX (and Opel) make mediocre cars that aren't as well screwed together as a German, aren't as stylish as an Italian, and aren't as cheap as a French. They're pretty British to be honest, in that they sort of do everything to some extent without excelling.Ford have really picked up recently, the new Mondeo is honest-to-god one of the best assembled cars I've seen, especially since MB is going downhill and BMW are disappearing up their own Bangle-designed arse. Similarly the original Focus set new standards for handling, and the Fiesta is simply the best small car you can buy.As such they've been able to put prices up but they're still worth it. My ma picked up a new-from-the-dealer 57 Fiesta for £9k all in and it's got aircon, electric stuff, a decent engine, alloys yada yada. I'd rate it as capable as, if not better than a Polo of the same vintage which IMHO is one of the generally accepted qualitry small cars - with the price premium to match. Vauxhall are staying in the same price range as Ford and increasing year on year but their stuff just isn't worth it. I've sat in 56 plate Corsas and had bits of trim come away in my hand. I've seen 54 plate Astras with electrical issues the Italians would be proud of, and a 54 Vectra that just looks at home inside the dealer it's been there that often. Alternator, sensors, gearbox, alarm, ECU - all seemingly made of chocolate.

Hammer, nail, head.Ford are rapidly getting away from the old Council image, starting with the Focus some 10-11 years ago. They do make mistakes (Fusion, Probe, Cougar) but by and large they have their act together. I agree on the Mondeo. It's a superb car and if someone else was paying I'd gladly have one.Mercedes seem to be rapidly improving as well. Since they ditched Chrysler, they have put a lot of effort into ramping up build quality - they can't afford not to. BMW are going off on some weird tangent but they still sell okay and there's a much nicer new 3 and 5 Series next year.Anyway, GM are bankrupt as of today. Fucking idiots. I have no sympathy apart from the poor sods who work on the lines building the shitters.Ford seem to be trundling along without Government help for now, but I wonder how long for?

[M'coli]

Except the Agila really

Other than being a Suzuki wagon R or whatever, what's not shit about the Agila? Would getting a wagon R be the better(cheaper) bet? It's on my options-for-sensible-modern list.

[AnthonyG]

Ford seem to be trundling along without Government help for now, but I wonder how long for?

Depends on whether the effects of GM/Chrysler bankruptcy, such as parts suppliers going tits up, will ripple out towards Ford.Also on whether the new Fiesta (to be called something else and available as a sedan but essentially the same car) and the Fusion hybrid are a hit. N.B. American Fusion is a middle of the range sedan, not the OAP mobile we get here.A lot of Americans (who as a rule generally hate government interference) have a much more positive attitude to Ford at the moment precisely because they are seen as still standing on their own two feet. Naturally Ford Mgt are desperate to ensure this state of affairs continues.

[martc]

Out of interest, do we know what's happening with Daewoo and Isuzu (do GM still own them?).You would have thought it prudent for GM to hang onto them. The US government have decreed that domestic manufacturers need to produce much more economical cars and both Daewoo and Isuzu have plenty of experience in this field (as did thier European operations.......).

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Yeah I wonder whats happening with Holden as well.

[Negative Creep]

One day, someone will have the balls to make a proper 'normal' car again. Something as lethal as a 205 GTi 1.9 or Sunbeam Lotus. Fast, anti-social and enjoyable. Something where absolutely nothing is 'soft touch', wind up windows, no central locking, no ABS or traction control, RWD preferably, easy to work on and fun to tweak.I don't want a billion airbags, cruise or cupholders in a car. Just a lot more feel, a lot less squidge, and a whole world less politically correct. There are loads of mega-reliable big power engines about, why can't one manufacturer go "Tell ya what, here's something the size of a Fiesta with 350 bhp, RWD, an LSD and a fruity 'track only' exhaust and induction option. It's not comfy, it's not quiet, but it's more fun than a Mk2 Escort and we'll sell you all the bits to make it into a tarmac rally weapon for buttons. Oh, it needs a service every 10k miles whether you cane it everywhere or not, but you can do that yourself."

Sadly crash regulations mean it will never happen, but kudos to Renault for putting out the next best thing in the Megane R26. As for Vauxhall, I don't want to see people losing their jobs but other than that I couldn't care less if the went under. It would just mean Avis have to go somewhere else

[r.welfare]

It would just mean Avis have to go somewhere else

Yeah, they'll have to try harder*!BOOM BOOMAvis's ad strapline used to be "We try harder". Dunno if it still is, but it gets a mention in "Mr Nice" by Howard Marks

[Mash]

I've been driving new hire cars recently and I too have to agree that Vauxhalls are among the least pleasant I've experienced. The new Corsa is a monstrosity to look at, visibility is pants, headroom in the back a joke and quality of interior fittings worse than the car it replaced.The Vectra is possibly the most numb car I have ever driven with absolutely no feel to the controls at all apart from a disturbing throttle delay plus those daft indicators on a flexible stalk that have been mentioned elsewhere. Great for sticking the cruise control on and tanking down an empty motorway but far to big and dead for anything else.New mainstream cars are just so disappointing to me it's unreal. I get much more pleasure from my '85 Sunny which in itself was a pretty bland thing but has character in abundance compared to today's offerings.As we know there have been no proper Vauxhall's since the 70s, and as someone said, it's been American owned for decades, but to be fair I think it's a shame the name may die - I'll always have fond memories of my FB Victor and grandad's Mk1 Cav. No sense carrying on with just a good name on a shit car by someone else though