Rave Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 So what major job might require a complete takeover of the kitchen table like this then? Replacing the brushes on a Valeo alternator you say? Oh. Well, now the weather's warmed up, I finally ran out of excuses for not getting it back in the car: ...which is this ex-police 3.0 Ghia X. Borderline shite when I bought it from Reading's finest no reserve ebay vendors 4 years ago, nailed on shite now I reckon. Getting the alternator out was marginally easier than I had anticipated, but only because I had anticipated complete failure. But anyway, wheel off, and safety first when working under cars: You need to unbolt the track rod end and ARB drop link to make enough space to get it in and out: Bolting it back in is the hardest bit, as it's pretty bloody heavy, and the top bolt is an absolute sod to get to. But I got there in the end, albeit after unbolting it again once as I was convinced that the top bolt wouldn't actually go in once it was held in position by the bottom two. I found out that I was wrong when the fucker fell out while I was doing up the bottom bolts for the second time. I also managed to lose one of the washers from the bottom bolts without noticing at this point. I seem to recall that I had removed the top bolt using a ratchet and a flexi link extension, but getting it back in with that was really not working, so I just did it up as tight as I dared with a ratchet spanner and the 3/8" adaptor that came with them. So now to get the belt back on. The tensioner has a hole in it for a 3/8" drive but there's almost no room; I found that I'd actually left my little mini breaker bar in there for 4 months: You'd need to be Geoff Capes to actually move the thing with that though, so I took it out and put my 3/8" ratchet in instead, then attached a little extra leverage: ...managed to avoid scratching the leading edge of the bonnet this time, unlike when I was removing it . Anyway I had to get the Mrs out at this point to hold it while I put the belt over the aircon compressor from under the wheelarch, but that was easy enough. Bolted the track rod and drop link back up: ...then put the wheel back on, dropped the car down, reconnected the battery, climbed in, crossed my fingers and started the car. So did it work? No. Anyone know a good auto electrician within limping distance of SE London? Or shall I just torch the bloody thing... RobT, Skizzer, Junkman and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dome Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Arses. I feel your pain, in the midst of valeo alternator replacement on the Clio. It has a combined brush/regulator unit that I have on order and will be fitting shortly. I thought the clios alternator was a pain to get off (bumper, slam panel and headlight off) but I think you win. Clios tensioner is similar, a jubilee clip round the tensioner is the way to do it on them. Rave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_Rocket Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Good effort, crappy result. Have you checked all fuses are ok? Rave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 From what I can gather I've either failed to fix the alternator, or the fault is a break in the wires, possibly the Smart Charge ones that go to the ECU. Quite a common fault apparently. Come to think of it I haven't tried it with that connector unplugged yet, perhaps I should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 I think I've checked all the fuses, but I will have another look before I give up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairymel Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 is it charging? if the smart charge part of the alternator is borked or the smart charge wiring has frayed it will default to 'normal' charging and switch off heated windows etc and light up the battery light. multi meter across the battery - check voltage (probably 12-13 volts) start the car and recheck. if its the same or less then the alt is not charging if its more (14+ volts usually) then it is the smart charge system that has failed, but the battery will still be charging and you should be ok to drive around and ignore the light if you so choose. also think a non oem alternator, non oem battery type and possibly temp sensor for battery can throw up a light. Rave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Result. Supernaut, hairymel, robinmasters and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 On a serious note maybe a better alternator may solve the problem. However, speaking from experience, not many auto electricians will take on fault finding on an "old" modern - my sister was advised regarding her 03 focus that the labour would exceed the cars value with no guarantee the fault would be located. Rave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 is it charging? if the smart charge part of the alternator is borked or the smart charge wiring has frayed it will default to 'normal' charging and switch off heated windows etc and light up the battery light. multi meter across the battery - check voltage (probably 12-13 volts) start the car and recheck. if its the same or less then the alt is not charging if its more (14+ volts usually) then it is the smart charge system that has failed, but the battery will still be charging and you should be ok to drive around and ignore the light if you so choose. also think a non oem alternator, non oem battery type and possibly temp sensor for battery can throw up a light. No, it's not charging at all. Voltage across the battery when I tested it just now with the engine running was 11.7V. Perhaps I should have attempted to test the alternator somehow before bolting it back in... Edit: alternator is original as far as I know, battery is non-standard but it was fine for the first 4 years of ownership. It pinged the battery light on last October as I was on my way to pick up my mate from Heathrow airport. I made it as far as Heston services before it completely conked out. I've been borrowing another car in the meantime, but it's time to get this one going again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 I know focus requires a calcium battery for the smart charge, so I assume mondeo will be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Furious Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Damn, that sucks, good effort on getting it out and back in, I'd heard it was a job you needed to drop the subframe for. Can't offer any wisdom on the fault though I'm afraid, despite owning a V6 Mondeo it's the one thing I haven't had problems with yet, and I'm kinda dreading the day I do. My bet would be on the alternator itself tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairymel Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 not charging at all tbh i think your best bet is another alternator - 'second user' units are available from £50 delivered on ebay. there are also freewheel clutched alternator pulleys available which could also be a possibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1703 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 I changed a focus alt and still had a battery light, cleared obd and it went off Rave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 I changed a focus alt and still had a battery light, cleared obd and it went off Hmm, I hadn't thought of doing that I must admit, but since there's no apparent charging (smart or otherwise) going on at the battery terminals, I wouldn't have thought that would be the problem? I have a knock-off ELM321, so no harm in trying I guess. Edit: clutch mechanism seemed to be fine Mel. No probs with bearings or anything like that either. I didn't bother cleaning up the slip ring when I changed the brushes but I had good continuity between the slip ring and the terminals where I'd soldered the new brushes in. Anyway, I've calmed down and had a think about it now, and this is what I reckon I'm going to do. 1) Check fuses, just in case. 2) Check for continuity between the alternator body and the engine block. 3) Check for continuity between the battery negative lead and the engine block. 4) Probably with the help of an extension wire for my multimeter, check for continuity between the main wire out of the alternator and the battery positive lead- these should be directly connected right? Assuming that's all as it should be, 5) pull the alternator out again and take/send it off for repair. Now I know what I'm doing I reckon I can get it out again in well under an hour; I copper greased all the bolts during re-installation etc. I'm reluctant to take a punt on a secondhand alternator as who knows how long it'll last before doing the same thing? They're not that easy to come by on ebay either, the 3.0 / ST220 ones are different to those fitted to the 2.5 I think. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hooli Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Try clearing the codes too. I'd guess it's possible that some stored faults could switch off the charging system until reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Station Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 I did the starter motor, alternator, tensioner and a variety of other things on my dads mk3."Flipping Nora" x 10003.6 no space to fit your hand - literally tickling an Allen key with the tip of your finger in hope that it loosens a 200nm tightened bolt.Actually not that bad to work on apart from limited space. Have you tried disconnecting battery and give it a good charge overnight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkman Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 You need to unbolt the track rod end and ARB drop link to make enough space to get it in and out: Try clearing the codes too. I'd guess it's possible that some stored faults could switch off the charging system until reset. I increasingly fail to believe how shit this post 1986 tosh really is. Lacquer Peel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hooli Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 It can make sense. Hows this for an idea - massively over volting due to a dead regulator, it kills the charging & you can probably get home/dealer before the battery exploderates.Of course it's also as annoying as fook at other times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Furious Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 You think that's shit, the even newer fangled tosh is much worse. I had to have a new battery on a company car a couple of years back and it (apparently) has to be registered with the car to tell it it has a new battery, so the 'intelligent battery system' knows how to charge it correctly Now there is a dealer shakedown if ever I heard one, I wasn't paying obviously but I dread to think, the battery was effin huge and had to be a specific type for start/stop too. Junkman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Faark me, my idea of an awkward alternator is one that demands I find two 1/2" spanners.I think there may be a market for converted Lucas ACRs, the pulley replaced with a deep knurled wheel, and a spring loaded hinge added so it can be self tappered inside a back wheelarch, rubbing off the tyre like on a pushbike. hairymel, AMC Rebel, forddeliveryboy and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 I will definitely try clearing the codes, as it will take all of ten minutes including reinstalling the battery (which is currently getting a top up from my Lidl smart charger). Can the Smart Charge system kill the charge completely if it's upset about something? I'm pretty sure the battery is O.K. anyway (it's smaller than it should be, but a proper calcium one). When the battery light first came on it drove a further 15 miles with the headlights on before it conked. Obviously I pulled the battery straight out and charged it after the RAC had towed us home, to stop the plates sulphating. I then put it back in the car and ran the car for a few minutes while testing voltages etc. to establish that it really wasn't charging. Then I left it in the car for the last 4 months or so. Today it started the car again (twice) with no bother, so I doubt it's knackered. Googling 'alternator repair' hasn't yet shown up anyone offering to do the job for me. I'm inclined to think it is the regulator at fault somehow, new ones seem to be 20-40 quid. I'd happily pay someone £20 to test it before bolting a new one on though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddeliveryboy Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I increasingly fail to believe how shit this post 1986 tosh really is.The sufferation-tolerance of people is surprisingly high and long-lived before they fully realise the downward slope doesn't have a trough, and form a revolutionary mob. I am currently cursing early-90s Volvo-ness, where the simplicity and flexibility of the old single v-belt and good access was replaced with a serpentine nightmare of nastiness. Junkman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMC Rebel Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 You think that's shit, the even newer fangled tosh is much worse. I had to have a new battery on a company car a couple of years back and it (apparently) has to be registered with the car to tell it it has a new battery, so the 'intelligent battery system' knows how to charge it correctly Now there is a dealer shakedown if ever I heard one, I wasn't paying obviously but I dread to think, the battery was effin huge and had to be a specific type for start/stop too. Some these feckers have two batteries - the main one and then one in an obscure location that tries to catch you out - then there are the ones with a big flip off capacitor too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sierraman Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I'd put money on the alternator you've fitted being goosed. How much is an exchange alternator? Not sure about going back to the days of having a V belt. You were forever changing them and they'd snap at a moments notice. A Mondeo will do 100-150k on the original aux belt. Lacquer Peel, overrun and Rave 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaughant Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Worth checking everything for continuity as you mentioned, quick one though in those is that crappy thin loom off the alternator fails regularly but as stated above shouldn't cause main charging issues.I've had seemingly insignificant fuses fail on fords that control charging systems but that was admittedly on older models.You seem clued up electrically but when you say you copper greased all bolts do you mean connectors as well, I.e where the actual high tension wires connect as I did this before on a Nissan and it caused all manner of issues until all copper grease was removed? I think it created a few parallel paths etc, certainly showed several high resistances on the meter? Rave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castros_bro Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Not sure how far you have progressed but..... assuming the alternator is working as an alternator then the Ford smart charge, and any problem with it, can be disabled by unplugging the smart charge connector, and leaving unplugged at the alternator then it will behave as a normal alternator BUT the warning light will be on as the smart charge will have an error. If there is an issue with the main cable the make a new one from the big connector on the alternator to the battery +ve.Stick one of these in the cig lighter to monitor the battery http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Display-Cigarette-Lighter-Electric-Voltage-Meter-For-Auto-Car-Battery-HTJV-/132050782905?hash=item1ebed70ab9:g:WRsAAOSwT~9WkHoe If the alternator may be defective I use these people, Guildford Surrey, who chain it on a test rig for £5 and abuse it then give a prognosis and suggest the cure.http://www.sedltd.com/ If I really want to go down the Ford Fart Charge endless route of darking gloom then the home of guru is also in Surrey http://www.petercoopercarrepairs.co.uk/ford_focus_alternator_smart_charging.htm Peter Cooper Car Repairs17 Wintersells Road Byfleet Surrey KT14 7LF01932 340384 Rave and Jifflemon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 Thanks all. It might be Friday before I get another chance to poke around the car now. I'm 90% convinced that the bit in my second picture, which I guess is called the regulator, has problems other than worn out brushes. It was foolish of me not to test the alternator with the smart charge connector removed, not least because I think I'm going to have to pull the bloody wheel and arch liner off again to get to it, but I will do before I pull it all out again. Vaughant, I didn't copper grease the main connector, just the retaining bolts (and the drop link / track rod / hub flange...). Castro's_bro, thanks a lot for that! I would like to have the smart charge working, because you need it for the quick clear windscreen do you not? Well worth paying out money for that alone . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sierraman Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Paint the warning light black. That way it won't annoy you. michael1703 and Eddie Honda 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 I had time to shove the battery back in. The 7.5A fuse under the bonnet which is apparently the alternator fuse wasn't blown. My OBD reader found no faults at all, the car's been disconnected so long that it's even forgotten about its faulty post-cat lambda sensor, though it won't take it long to remember if/when I do eventually get it going again . Clearing fault codes didn't make the battery light go off. More tests on Friday, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sierraman Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I'd get the alternator tested or find a recon one with a guarantee. With stuff from breakers etc you take your chances. What is it shared with? Would one off a 1.8/2.0 work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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