100% veg oil in minus conditions

[overrun]

If the car starts (and obviously is veg friendly...) are there any other issues? I am guessing not, as it is only the change in viscosity due to freezing temperatures that would cause any problems, and that would be it just refusing to start, correct?

 

I have ran an Astra, Escort and 106 on straight SVO in the past, but been caught out when the temps dropped and the Pug in particular iirc, was very difficult to start and ran like shit until warm, if it wasn't running a mix.

I started up the Rexton just before, and aside from taking a little longer turning over and then for a second or two being lumpy, it was happy. That was at around -3 deg C and 100% SVO.

 

Veg oil becoming thicker and harder to pump/heat up is surely just the same as diesel doing so in very cold climates, and what can you do there but just attempt to start your car?

Do these activities harm pumps?

 

Obviously if I can, I will run straight SVO or bio all of the time. I have a strong battery and so far, she seems happy.

 

Thoughts?

[DodgeRover]

Don't do it, too thick will shaft the injection pump with expensive consequences.

I used to leave a bottle of veg outside the door overnight to check what it's consistency was in the morning. It was virtually solid a couple of times (cold filtered WVO)

[overrun]

Fair enough, mate. It would be interesting to see how thick the pump can handle, but there is only way and as you say, that gets expensive lol.

[KruJoe]

My thinking is that because the colder it is, the more viscous the oil, then greater strain is put of the seals between components of your fuel system, especially parts under suction. This will probably not show as fuel leaks, but you'll have symptoms of air being drawn in (bad starting, lumpiness, low power, etc). If all your pipes are black (not clear), finding the source of your woes becomes a right PITA.

[overrun]

  On 27/01/2017 at 09:09, KruJoe said:

My thinking is that because the colder it is, the more viscous the oil, then greater strain is put of the seals between components of your fuel system, especially parts under suction. This will probably not show as fuel leaks, but you'll have symptoms of air being drawn in. If all your pipes are black (not clear), finding the source of your woes becomes a right PITA.

 

True, true. It obviously puts more load on the pump, it's just knowing how much is too much. It is a bit of a piss take, granted.

 

It's just not worth the potential hassle, eh? It's not as if we experience the temperatures for that much of the year, either.

I'll stop being tight and run a decent mix, when freezing.

 

With the other cars, the Isuzu Astra and mk6 Escort in particular, I wasn't so bothered if they expired, as at the time it would have been easy to get another.

This thing I would like to keep in good mechanical fettle, though.

[Lacquer Peel]

I ran my 405 TD on a veg/petrol mix down to - 20c. Not precisely measured but it was in the 10-20% range.

When it gets cold, thin it down.

If you're buying new oil it is probably soya based, it starts gelling above freezing.

Does the Ssangyong have a fuel heater?

[overrun]

  On 27/01/2017 at 09:13, Lacquer Peel said:

I ran my 405 TD on a veg/petrol mix down to - 20c. Not precisely measured but it was in the 10-20% range.

When it gets cold, thin it down.

If you're buying new oil it is probably soya based, it starts gelling above freezing.

Does the Ssangyong have a fuel heater?

 

I was hoping you would also chime in, mate.

No fuel heater here, so another reason not to be even more of a pikey, eh? I will be visiting one half of the Cleland Bros shortly and acquiring some of Will's bio, so with that mixed, it should be happier all round.

[KruJoe]

Here's a thought, (anyone tried it?) how about a low-pressure 12v inline fuel pump, close to the fuel tank?

It might help with lifting your gloop and pushing it through the filters, reducing the suction forces on the upstream side of the injection pump. Daft idea?

[Lacquer Peel]

I've tried a Facet pump mounted in the engine bay, it helps a lot.

 

You can get away with very strong veg mixes in XUDs and old Mercedes diesels, with or without fuel heating but 100% oil will turn to jelly at low temperatures.

 

Overrun, it might be worth setting up a looped return, mingebag fuel heating solution.

[barmatt]

I wouldn't risk using svo in this weather, I always ran around a 20% mix of derv in the cold to keep it nice and thin. It's still quite a good saving and a lot cheaper than a new pump.

[Lacquer Peel]

Mixing with diesel is throwing money away, petrol is more effective and you don't need to use as much.

[oman5]

I had a leyland daf 200 with the Perkins engine, on veg it was just really sluggish in the cold because the stuff was just too thick for the pump. You'd be driving along and it would momentarily bog down when a particularly lumpy bit tried to get to the engine. The van was only a heartbeat from the scrapyard at the time so I was fine with risking it.

My Volvo 940 with the d24 engine gets very hard to start on veg if it's cold, so I only use it in the summer months now.

[DodgeRover]

I ran my Lucas pumped Astra on a 50/50 WVO derv mix through the winter, but like I said that was already cold filtered at about 4 or 5 degrees. The bio I used to get started to go thick at not much below zero either.

Fuel filter heater won't help the injection pump at all on cold start up and that's where the problems will occur.

I take it the beast from the east doesn't have a seperate fuel burning heater as plumbing that up to the engine coolant then running heated fuel lines would be the ideal solution for cold starts

[Jim Bell]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322378798477

 

For the sake of £35, would this not help?

[Lacquer Peel]

They aren't very effective and certainly not from cold starts, it might warm the oil surrounding it but won't touch the injection pump and injectors.

[Lankytim]

I ran my XM on pure veg at -4 a few times. Didn't like it but it was fine.

[forddeliveryboy]

GM Soya can be gelling from 4C down (and can set solid in the tank, lines and IP - eek), rapeseed oil is good for well under -10C.

 

As above, too viscous and the chances are if you haven't sorted the joints and sender unit properly there'll be air drawn in. If not, the car may run but revving it will place huge strain on IP seals. 

 

The MB pumps fitted to their old 5 and 6 cylinder engines are of a totally different type from others, they're inline and have 5 or 6 pistons pumping up and down to deliver the fuel and lubed by sump oil, so very tolerant of a wide range of fuel viscosity. But performance will be dismal with gloopy fuel and you risk blowing the delivery valve seals, which are easy enough to diy but best avoided.

 

Fuel preheating is a good thing, not the 12v electrical sorts (one or two glow plugs vs a mass of cold metal in the head and IP) but one heated by coolant using a fphe like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/plate-HEAT-EXCHANGER-biofuel-veg-vegetable-cooking-oil-SVO-WVO-biodiesel-Pol-UCO-/262793464676?hash=item3d2fb60b64:g:OOkAAOSwECZUqxpk. Obviously this doesn't sort out cold starting (the glow plugs ones don't either), but I managed fine with this alone through 2010 where overnight temps were down to -18C on 85-90% rapeseed oil. I was caught out and hadn't fitted a 240v preheater but the TDi started really well. It took about 2 minutes of running for the fuel to be thinned well by the heat from the coolant and so normal performance restored.

 

I always add 5% or more diesel summer or winter, it isn't for thinning but more to improve the slipperiness and combuston of the mix - there are some clever additives in pump diesel which seem to have a huge effect even at low concentration. Better starting, better economy and more power.

 

Petrol (or misfuel) is used to adjust the viscosity - I find too much affects starting (adversely), so it's a matter of learning what works best at a given temp. Definitely no more than 10% - which is what I used at -18C. Expect a fair loss of power and economy at that strength. 

[beko1987]

I had my zx full of neat new veg last winter by accident and it thickened up like a bastard and needed much revs to push it through. It stalled on idle and was a pig to start. The thicker veg also clogged the fuel filter.

 

A never below 3k drive to the petrol station and £20 of derv had it sorted, and I put a new filter in too cos it's cheap to do.

[forddeliveryboy]

Yer plonker!

 

The £200 or so needed to equip a car for preheated starts and coolant-heated (thin) fuel is saved after only 3 or 4 tanks of wvo - it's a no-brainer, the bits are easily swapped from one car to the next.

[beko1987]

Was the 'you plonker' for me? I don't quite see the point in spending £200 on a £200 car that already ran veg perfectly fine for 87% of the year so it can run it for the rest.

 

The xantia just has derv now, it's easier!

[Lacquer Peel]

Veg = cheap or free, diesel = far from cheap or free

[forddeliveryboy]

Was meaning it in a friendly way, beko.

[beko1987]

I know! On something expensive I imagine it's very much worth it. I just learnt the lesson to not bother with veg in winter!

[Lacquer Peel]

All you need to do is thin it down.

[forddeliveryboy]

  On 27/01/2017 at 11:37, beko1987 said:

I know! On something expensive I imagine it's very much worth it. I just learnt the lesson to not bother with veg in winter!

 

 

Aye, but make sure you get the right nozzle… 

 

It's perhaps because I've done it for so long now, but putting a veg-dispensing nozzle into the filler followed by a splash of petrol in cold weather is way easier than queuing on a forecourt for a pump, then queuing to pay. Even ignoring the whole business of pouring thousands of taxed income into a product which is 70% tax, and which you waste 70% of in use. Once a month I have to collect the stuff, then pour it into a receptor which pumps it into the system - I forget how many hundreds of pounds an hour this minor chore works out to.

[2MB]

I never even thought about giving the Merc 190 anything but 100% veg until ambient temps dropped below zero, and it never complained. VAG engines (1.6td and 2.5tdi) seem a bit more sensitive to the cold. Current Volvo V70 with the tdi donkey gets 40l of veg and 30l of diesel and runs fine, with a bit of lumpiness at idle for the first half a minute. When winter is over I'll try a dash of petrol with 100% veg

[Cavcraft]

I ran a BX on it 100% for about two years and about the same on my 306. It was just a bastard to start on the really cold mornings, but no bother once it fired up. That said, I've had others that would struggle on fairly warm days with 50/50, so it's a 'suck it and see' job I reckon.

[Lacquer Peel]

Some of the issues with cold running on veg are not so much down to the engine but the fuel delivery - perished pipes and fuel filter housings drawing in air.

 

Older VW IDI diesels are not very good on veg, neither is the 5 cylinder TDI even though the 4 pot is a champ.

[Cavcraft]

Incidentally I've nevr run a car with any (extra, from standard) fancy pre-heater, every one has just had veg thrown in it and coped. Or not, as was the case with the FX4 taxi and the DW8 306 estate.

[Lacquer Peel]

The DW8 in the Berlingo wasn't great on veg when the engine was cold, again I think that's down to fuel delivery limitations rather than any inherent flaw. It's cheap and easy to replace the standard circuitous fuel pipe with one length of (usually) 8mm rubber pipe, doing that can make a huge difference to running on veg.