Running a small petrol car vs Running a big car, on gas..

[richardthestag]

That Russian LPG explosion didn't look too bad - no-one hurt.

 

cleared the earwax I reckon

 

 

UK LPG has an additive that you can smell, so any leak is very obvious 

[cros]

I just noticed a Leicester LPG outfit offering a liquid injection kit now. This uses the existing petrol injectors and needs no mixer with it's attendant water heating pipery and valves. The idea looks appealing or am I missing something?

[Broadsword]

I chased the dream of getting an LPG Jag for a while and eventually gave up. None of the LPG Jags I came across ran properly for one reason or another. I feel that no-one will sell an such an LPG car on till they have thoroughly got their money's worth out of it hence by the time it come your way it will be past it's best and at the very least need a good service. Only go for the very best LPG conversions. The 4.0 V8 is a marvelous experience when running properly, but that can change easily, so it needs a very good LPG conversion. On balance I came to the conclusion that old Jags are not for serious commuting on my budget and I just pay for the petrol and drive them a bit less. I hope I'm wrong and that the one you are considering though is a goodun.

[DaveDorson]

I chased the dream of getting an LPG Jag for a while and eventually gave up. None of the LPG Jags I came across ran properly for one reason or another. I feel that no-one will sell an such an LPG car on till they have thoroughly got their money's worth out of it hence by the time it come your way it will be past it's best and at the very least need a good service. Only go for the very best LPG conversions. The 4.0 V8 is a marvelous experience when running properly, but that can change easily, so it needs a very good LPG conversion. On balance I came to the conclusion that old Jags are not for serious commuting on my budget and I just pay for the petrol and drive them a bit less. I hope I'm wrong and that the one you are considering though is a goodun.

 

I ended up with a Focus ST170, then sold it. and now I'm getting a diesel Mondeo.

 

Things have changed a fair bit since that post mind

[Broadsword]

Ha, sorry I got completely confused. Holy thread resurection etc. Matching date but wrong year threw me off.

[DaveDorson]

Ha, sorry I got completely confused. Holy thread resurection etc. Matching date but wrong year threw me off.

 

that's fine.

 

I did do the whole looking at LPG Jags thing again before deciding to get a diesel Mondeo to be honest.

 

I kind of need the load capacity of an estate these days for the bicycle related stuff.

[DodgeRover]

I just noticed a Leicester LPG outfit offering a liquid injection kit now. This uses the existing petrol injectors and needs no mixer with it's attendant water heating pipery and valves. The idea looks appealing or am I missing something?

Is that Tinley Tech? There has been some chat about that system on the lpg forum I think.

There's also a injection kit for carb'd vehicles, I don't know why lpg isn't more popular.

 

We are currently looking for another less crusty Lexus RX300 on gas to replace ours unless I get my finger out and change the subframe before the next MOT, conversion costs are about the same as what the vehicle is worth 1500-2000 for a pro install with good kit. Theoretical payback time for the lexus is 1&1/2 to 2 years at 10k per annum according to DriveLPG which seems quite a long time compared to what we have noticed in real life.

[cros]

No, I tried to speak to Tinley Tech yesterday but just got a message saying they're busy in the afternoons. I've had 7 kits from them over the years, but there's nothing on their website about this new system that the Leicester firm are offering. I'll also have to look at the injection kit for carbed cars as both mine are this set up. I've got a blos LPG carb on the MG and a cheap universal thing you shove in the induction hose on the P4. Neither ever give bother. I tried fitting a closed loop device on my Sherpa that used a lambda sensor in the exhaust to finely control the gas mixture, but it seemed to offer no discernable benefits in economy or performance and was just something else to go wrong.

[Ian_Fearn]

I ran a 5.7 Hemi Jeep on LPG. It had a Prins kit with Keihin injectors so good quality kit.

 

It ran perfectly on LPG, never flagged the ECU light, switched from petrol to gas without any noticeable change or effect. I really couldn't fault it in that respect.

 

The PO had it fitted (about £2500) 10 years and about 60k previously. The only evidence of servicing I could find was a receipt for a vaporiser rebuild within a year of installation. I discussed having it looked over with an LPG specialist. He asked me some directed questions and we both agreed from a running perspective it was spot on.

 

It had a sticking fill valve event which was unpleasant and attracted a lot of unwanted attention on the forecourt, I had no idea what to do other than let it vent.

 

The vaporiser was leaking coolant and needed new seals which required a rebuild and would then have needed connecting to a computer to be setup again. The software alone was over £100 iirc.

 

It made the fuel cost of daily motoring tolerable (I got 15mpg on gas) unless I was doing short journeys in which case it didn't get warm enough to switch to gas. Then I was doing about 10mpg on petrol, ouch.

 

It didn't reduce the much higher cost of running a huge vehicle (tyres, fluids, exhausts etc). The complexity (and lack of reliability of the car itself) combined with the cost of parts made me sell the car rather than the cost of the fuel. I'm positive I spent more on servicing and parts than on fuel.

 

It didn't have flashlube and I was beginning to wonder if the top end was sounding rattly. I'd want to be 100% sure if I were buying something already gas'd without flashlube. 

 

I rarely ran out of LPG but I reckon I had to cover more miles overall to find LPG stations. Sometimes wasted when the pump was out of action (this happened quite a few times). The wife thought it was stupid and made me aware she thought so.....

 

I really like the benefits of LPG, I would buy another LPG car and I would recommend it. But, in my experience you do need to be more dedicated for the extra hassle it can entail. 

[DodgeRover]

No, I tried to speak to Tinley Tech yesterday but just got a message saying they're busy in the afternoons. I've had 7 kits from them over the years, but there's nothing on their website about this new system that the Leicester firm are offering. I'll also have to look at the injection kit for carbed cars as both mine are this set up. I've got a blos LPG carb on the MG and a cheap universal thing you shove in the induction hose on the P4. Neither ever give bother. I tried fitting a closed loop device on my Sherpa that used a lambda sensor in the exhaust to finely control the gas mixture, but it seemed to offer no discernable benefits in economy or performance and was just something else to go wrong.

How do you get on with the BLOS I can't get my mixture correct at idle no matter where I set the idle mixture screw on it, I have tried with the idle bypass fully closed and it's still out.

[cros]

Big thirsty motors mean that you have to look for a filling station more often which must detract from LPG to an extent. I get about 28mpg from my MGB (32 on petrol) so with an 80l tank it has a reasonable range. If you have to go out of your way to find a garage the benefits can be squandered. It's always best to fill up whenever the opportunity presents itself as garages often run out or their pumps go wrong.

I've had a look around and can't find anything on injectors for carb engines.

[DodgeRover]

Big thirsty motors mean that you have to look for a filling station more often which must detract from LPG to an extent. I get about 28mpg from my MGB (32 on petrol) so with an 80l tank it has a reasonable range. If you have to go out of your way to find a garage the benefits can be squandered. It's always best to fill up whenever the opportunity presents itself as garages often run out or their pumps go wrong.

I've had a look around and can't find anything on injectors for carb engines.

Will look it out for you

 

I rarely ran out of LPG but I reckon I had to cover more miles overall to find LPG stations. Sometimes wasted when the pump was out of action (this happened quite a few times). The wife thought it was stupid and made me aware she thought so.....

 

I really like the benefits of LPG, I would buy another LPG car and I would recommend it. But, in my experience you do need to be more dedicated for the extra hassle it can entail.

I always tell people to go for the absolute biggest tanks possible, I'm fitting yet another in the van when I get time to take me over 200l useable. Makes a big difference when I can fill at the 54ppl Sainsburys rather than the 64ppl or 74ppl locally.

[Ian_Fearn]

I always tell people to go for the absolute biggest tanks possible, I'm fitting yet another in the van when I get time to take me over 200l useable. Makes a big difference when I can fill at the 54ppl Sainsburys rather than the 64ppl or 74ppl locally.

 

Good advice, mine was 90l but at 15mpg the range was still low. 90l was the biggest you could fit in the spare wheel well on the Jeep. Its something else to consider with LPG, where the tank goes and the practicality loss. 

[cros]

How do you get on with the BLOS I can't get my mixture correct at idle no matter where I set the idle mixture screw on it, I have tried with the idle bypass fully closed and it's still out.

Blos is fine at idle, better than the mixer I had previously on the single SU.

I went to a single carb as there is, for some reason, a cheap single carb 'performance' manifold available which saves having two mixers. This would be risky on petrol due to being unheated and thus prone to icing but is not a issue on gas. One other issue on SU carbed stuff is needle wear on the later sprung-needle types. I fitted an earlier carb where you have to centre the needle, but doesn't wear the jet as it goes up and down with no 'wet' fuel to lubricate things.

[DodgeRover]

You could fit the needle lifters they used to sell for rangies?

[Psycho Charlie Knobcheese]

It's being considered.

 

Thing is I'd need to be looking to use it every day.  I'm beginning to think all sensible and that a warm hatchback from the early 2000's might be a better plan.

 

I'm after something that's not dog eggs, that can seat me and a few mates comfortably, that I can commute in, and that I'll enjoy.

 

And, because I'm a bit of a petrol head and like stuff somewhat, but not entirely lairy, something with a sporty moniker.

 

I've ruled out anything from the VW Audi Group, because turbo's.  That also rules out the hotter of the Astra SRi's.

 

I don't want a diesesal.

 

I remember my mate having a BMW Mini One when they were new.. and the back seats being nothing short of farcical.

 

The Clio 172's are either dead, close to dead, or just a bit too small, but I reckon they'd be hugely rewarding to drive.

 

Civic Type R has an image problem, they're still expensive cars, parts are horror show expensive if they ever go wrong.

 

That doesn't really leave a lot does it?

 

Focus ST170?, Celica VVL-I 190, both apparently a bit wet unless you wring the neck out of them.  The Celica isn't really my cuppa either.  I could live with a nice, unmodified Focus ST170 mind.

 

MGZR160 is a car I've long fancied, and I had a 1.4 105bhp version that was fun enough, but silly things broke on it.. I'd want to be using it every day.  I'd feel happier that a Focus would get me there and back daily without fuss, especially if I buy a late one.

 

And I'm after something that I can find a home for later on, in a few years, when I've decided I want to have a proper mid life crisis and buy something like a Hondull S2000.

 

Been having similar thoughts. Corolla T Sport? 

[cros]

Agreed on tank location. The Rover has a lousy design of boot whose floor slopes towards the back so that everything tries to fall out. It's hard to spoil it, and I got a nice big tank squeezed up at the front. I did a quick photo, couldn't be arsed to clear it out.

Normally MGBs keep their spare wheel in the boot, and substituting it with a tank you actually get more usuable space. Which I've filled with rubbish.

The Petrol pump can now live on the boot floor protected by the tank instead of the stupid factory location hanging out under the wheel arch where it used to get covered in shit. Ironic really as it's now very rarely used.

I managed to use a pair of Range-Rover tanks under the floor of my Sherpa van, but lots of work to get them in- re-routing the exhaust is the easy bit...

I did something similar on a Landrover, but never again.

[pilninggas]

Run a small car on lpg and enjoy not worrying about running costs.

[cros]

You could fit the needle lifters they used to sell for rangies?

I saw them, but you have to buy them with money. Fixed needle carb has been fine since 2008 and they used to be everywhere. Don't suppose they are now though.

[pilninggas]

No, I tried to speak to Tinley Tech yesterday but just got a message saying they're busy in the afternoons. I've had 7 kits from them over the years, but there's nothing on their website about this new system that the Leicester firm are offering. I'll also have to look at the injection kit for carbed cars as both mine are this set up. I've got a blos LPG carb on the MG and a cheap universal thing you shove in the induction hose on the P4. Neither ever give bother. I tried fitting a closed loop device on my Sherpa that used a lambda sensor in the exhaust to finely control the gas mixture, but it seemed to offer no discernable benefits in economy or performance and was just something else to go wrong.

I just converted my Duster to lpg (5th car to do so)

 

I did get a quote for parts supply of the Vialle LSI from lpg shop but it was only a few quid less than a grand!

 

I had a Stag 200, Tomasetto Artic and some Valtek 30s lying around and after buying an external toroidal from autogas-diy the whole conversion cost less than the £250- although i do need to get it certified.

[cros]

Run a small car on lpg and enjoy not worrying about running costs.

I spoke to a bloke filling a C1 with gas a while back. He said he drove all day for his work and made a decent whack out of expenses. Smart.

[pilninggas]

I spoke to a bloke filling a C1 with gas a while back. He said he drove all day for his work and made a decent whack out of expenses. Smart.

i used to do the same. it was ace when lpg was 22p litre in Asda Cribbs Causeway and unleaded was 99p. My rate was based on petrol, so i used to make a good whack back.

[Ian_Fearn]

I just converted my Duster to lpg (5th car to do so)

 

I did get a quote for parts supply of the Vialle LSI from lpg shop but it was only a few quid less than a grand!

 

I had a Stag 200, Tomasetto Artic and some Valtek 30s lying around and after buying an external toroidal from autogas-diy the whole conversion cost lesson the £250- although i do need to get it certified.

Did you take any pictures of the conversion?

 

Would be very interested.

[pilninggas]

Did you take any pictures of the conversion?

 

Would be very interested.

there are tons of photos of converted K4Ms on the net. It's not the first one ive converted [my phase 2 laguna ran it when i was commuting 80 miles/day] and they run well on lpg with little or no VSR.

 

if i get chance ill take some pics.

 

The tank is underslung (77L dry) suspended using some turned ally bushes. The spud are mounted in the same location on the manifold as OEM. Injector rail is where the aluminium petrol injector cover lives.

Drives well enough. I need to tweak the fuel trims to stop the long term going to cock.

[Ian_Fearn]

Are you going to get it certified? When I had an LPG VW T25 years ago, insurers were super keen to see the certificate. 

 

When I insured the Jeep, the certificate was out of date but the insurance company had no interest anyway. Just a modification declaration from me that it was LPG converted. I had read the UK LPG register wasn't an 'approved' body and therefore no legal requirement exists to carry out certification?

 

A mate of mine ran an old 1.8 Passat on a DIY conversion for years, he was never asked for a certificate with various insurers.

[Rusty_Rocket]

I ran a 5.7 Hemi Jeep on LPG. It had a Prins kit with Keihin injectors so good quality kit.

 

It ran perfectly on LPG, never flagged the ECU light, switched from petrol to gas without any noticeable change or effect. I really couldn't fault it in that respect.

 

The PO had it fitted (about £2500) 10 years and about 60k previously. The only evidence of servicing I could find was a receipt for a vaporiser rebuild within a year of installation. I discussed having it looked over with an LPG specialist. He asked me some directed questions and we both agreed from a running perspective it was spot on.

 

It had a sticking fill valve event which was unpleasant and attracted a lot of unwanted attention on the forecourt, I had no idea what to do other than let it vent.

 

The vaporiser was leaking coolant and needed new seals which required a rebuild and would then have needed connecting to a computer to be setup again. The software alone was over £100 iirc.

 

It made the fuel cost of daily motoring tolerable (I got 15mpg on gas) unless I was doing short journeys in which case it didn't get warm enough to switch to gas. Then I was doing about 10mpg on petrol, ouch.

 

It didn't reduce the much higher cost of running a huge vehicle (tyres, fluids, exhausts etc). The complexity (and lack of reliability of the car itself) combined with the cost of parts made me sell the car rather than the cost of the fuel. I'm positive I spent more on servicing and parts than on fuel.

 

It didn't have flashlube and I was beginning to wonder if the top end was sounding rattly. I'd want to be 100% sure if I were buying something already gas'd without flashlube. 

 

I rarely ran out of LPG but I reckon I had to cover more miles overall to find LPG stations. Sometimes wasted when the pump was out of action (this happened quite a few times). The wife thought it was stupid and made me aware she thought so.....

 

I really like the benefits of LPG, I would buy another LPG car and I would recommend it. But, in my experience you do need to be more dedicated for the extra hassle it can entail. 

 

That's similar to my experience with LPG cars.  I've had an Omega V6, P38 RR, Zafira dualfuel and a Transit, all on LPG.  None of them ever ran as nicely as they did on petrol, all put on the management light at some point, all needed regular attention to the vaporiser, hoses, injectors etc and all had to accommodate the tank of course.

I might have been unlucky, but I came to the conclusion that the equivalent diesel would have been so much easier to live with.  Price of LPG varies widely and sometimes I reckon it was no cheaper than just using petrol and enjoying the extra power and less faff...

[DaveDorson]

Been having similar thoughts. Corolla T Sport? 

 

 

After owning one, I'd gladly have another ST170 if that helps at all

 

Mine went because the clutch went at a very inopportune moment, and a cheap diesel came along at the right money, when I needed to cut my spend a bit.

 

I'm currently looking for another, but it has to be a 3 door, a later car, and in the right colour.

[DodgeRover]

Are you going to get it certified? When I had an LPG VW T25 years ago, insurers were super keen to see the certificate.

 

When I insured the Jeep, the certificate was out of date but the insurance company had no interest anyway. Just a modification declaration from me that it was LPG converted. I had read the UK LPG register wasn't an 'approved' body and therefore no legal requirement exists to carry out certification?

 

A mate of mine ran an old 1.8 Passat on a DIY conversion for years, he was never asked for a certificate with various insurers.

It just depends on the insurer, the only legal requirement is to inform your insurers and the DVLA, quite wether the DVLA will listen is another matter.

[cros]

That's similar to my experience with LPG cars. I've had an Omega V6, P38 RR, Zafira dualfuel and a Transit, all on LPG. None of them ever ran as nicely as they did on petrol, all put on the management light at some point, all needed regular attention to the vaporiser, hoses, injectors etc and all had to accommodate the tank of course.

I might have been unlucky, but I came to the conclusion that the equivalent diesel would have been so much easier to live with. Price of LPG varies widely and sometimes I reckon it was no cheaper than just using petrol and enjoying the extra power and less faff...

I think this is a common problem and must be why the uptake of LPG remains low. I've seen several poorly converted vehicles that have their load space ruined by a tank plonked inconveniently, are hard to start, and backfire occasionally.

I can't speak for modern engines but the vehicles I've converted (Sherpa, Morris Minor, series Landrover, Fergie tractor, and the two above) all ran more smoothly on LPG and never suffered from poor starting. I always start on gas down to freezing temperatures, though this isn't usually the case on injected vehicles.

The guide that I read stressed the importance of keeping the ignition system in good order, and making sure the engine is not 'tired' as these factors have a greater impact when running on LPG.

One other drawback is that in doing a conversion you introduce a load more electrical components plus hot water feed to the vaporiser and a small filter. These will all need looking after and though I've never had even one solenoid valve fail so far, one day it's bound to happen.

Yet another problem is that its hard to avoid a degree of power loss. This isn't so critical when you're talking about several litres of V8, but on a Minor you've not got much to start with. My approach was to have the head skimmed and fit a bigger carb and manifold, so I experienced no loss over the original engine. This sort of thing is very easy and cheap on A and B series engines, possibly not on others.

A big step forward would be if this new system of squirting LPG through the existing petrol injectors is a goer. Not only does it do away with the vaporiser and it's water heating bits, it is said to give the same or more power as well as not needing to switch over for starting. I like the sound of it.

[Zelandeth]

I've zip experience with LPG, but my former flatmate had a thing for Jags, so I've lived alongside XJ's of each iteration from mid 80s to around 2000.

 

They're universally lovely to drive when working well.

 

They are however bloody complicated cars, and can be frustrating to work on, parts tend towards the expensive side of reasonable, and the online enthusiast community generally seem to be the type who are more concerned about the fact that you haven't polished the chrome cap on the windscreen washer jets than answering the basic nuts and bolts question you asked.

 

The IRS setup on the early 90s cars at least was an absolute swine to sort out on the one car, and I reckon we must have replaced every damn bush on the back of the car - and it still bloody clonked sometimes. I also hope never to have to change another cabin heater circulator water pump ever again. Yes, the heater has its own water pump. On the late 90s XJ8, it tries to occupy the same physical space as the nearside exhaust manifold, which is where most of the skin from my knuckles and wrist still resides.

 

They're made to be driven and to be thrown at a well equipped garage by an owner with deep pockets.

 

I still regret not buying the green one...but at the same time I know how big the bills my mate paid just in parts and I know how many hours we both spent on them...it would have both bankrupted me and driven me insane.

 

I'm not saying don't do it, but just make sure you're going in eyes open. Buy the absolute best car you can too, none of these cars like sitting around, so have a look at MOT histories and keep that in mind if it's clearly only been out for the occasional Sunday and to the testing station... that's not necessarily a good thing.