Bwlch y Groes

[Squire_Dawson]

No, I don't know how to pronounce it either but I took the Aggy up this mountain pass recently.

 

[Squire_Dawson]

[sierraman]

Is that in Wales?

[Louise2cv]

"In the early twentieth century the pass was used by the Austin Motor Company to road test new cars"

 

Cool huh?

[Louise2cv]

Bulk* uh gr-oi-s

 

Is the best way I can think to type it by the way...

 

* Bulk: but the ch is the throat clearing kind of sound, similar to the sound at the end of the Scottish Loch.

 

Uh: as in monosyllabic teenager grunt

 

Gr-oi-s: I suppose it rhymes with voice.

[richardmorris]

As louise says.

 

Something like buwch uh groice.

 

A couple of calendar shots there too!

[For Fiats Sake]

I lived in Wales for a time and never made any sense of the Language, bloody warning signs at the sides of roads were useless as in two languages and very small print.  Two words I did pick up were ARAF and HEDDLU.  

 

For those of a Welsh disposition, I'm so sorry for you and your phlegm ridden language which to my ears sounds like gargling diarrhea, but hey, you get free prescriptions! 

[richardmorris]

Oops.

[richardmorris]

I agree about the signs. By the time you've noticed the Welsh and moved on to the English you've passed the damn thing.

 

Heddlu ALWAYS makes me think of blazing saddles and Hedley Lamarr!

[mat_the_cat]

Uh: as in monosyllabic teenager grunt

 

 

Something like buwch uh groice.

 

I'd always thought y in Welsh was pronounced ee - is that ever the case or does it depend on the context? Have I been getting it wrong for years?

[mouseflakes]

Love the photos of the Allegro in the mountains!

[richardmorris]

I'd always thought y in Welsh was pronounced ee - is that ever the case or does it depend on the context? Have I been getting it wrong for years?

Don't ask me! It's sort of accent, it's more of a grunt than an EE buy gum though

Also depends on north and South Wales ( I and think Louise am north).

I was forced to do Welsh in school until 16, but can remember virtually none of it as it's not relevant. And was taught by a witch. Honestly making up new Welsh words - e bost for email is just hysterically poor. Microwave = popty ping! ( oven is popty.)

[Louise2cv]

Y is the one letter that changes sound depending on where in a word it is (but I don't know the actual rule).

 

It is generally more of an uh than ee I believe, but don't forget regional accents might affect the sound.

 

Ysbyty is an example uhs-buh-tee.

 

Round here I'd say it's "uh velinheli" or "bet-us uh coid" but I think in natural speech that might come out between the two; say "bet-us uh coid" fast enough and it kinds of morphs into the "bet-us ee coid" you might hear.

 

ETA:

 

I am in North Wales, and for me Welsh is very relevant because pretty much everyone speaks it, and speaks it first, although they have no problem switching to English if necessary. Also I get to watch Hinterland/y gwyll before it comes on proper telly

[richardmorris]

Or, as I keep explaining to friends asking how to pronounce rhosllanerchrugog. I say Rhoas

[Jim Bell]

Lovely pics.

[New POD]

I lived in Wales for a time and never made any sense of the Language, bloody warning signs at the sides of roads were useless as in two languages and very small print.  Two words I did pick up were ARAF and HEDDLU.  

 

For those of a Welsh disposition, I'm so sorry for you and your phlegm ridden language which to my ears sounds like gargling diarrhea, but hey, you get free prescriptions! 

 

I'll let my Dad know, it's not only me that thinks like this.

 

He was born in Burnley, and grew up in Rossall Beach (North of Blackpool) and married my mum who was born in Poulton Le Fylde and was bought up in Bexley Heath. ie NOT Welsh.

 

They retired to Ynys Mon in 2000, and immediately started attending Welsh Classes. Mother has done the beginners course 5 times, whilst Dad managed to Achieve an A* at A level eventually.  Now he does lay preaching in the Chapels in Welsh.

 

He is not impressed by my assertion that it's a made up language and should be consigned to the scrap heap.

[Louise2cv]

Well... It isn't a made up language.

 

English has loads of borrowed words, and new words. Why shouldn't the Welsh language grow as new things happen?

 

And actually, microwave is microdan, not popty-ping.

 

ETA. I am an "incomer" and I'm learning Welsh because of manners, 80% first language here, and it really is the first language you hear out on the street etc, its natural and not done for effect! Also I genuinely think it's a beautiful language and I'm jealous for my Welsh friends who grew up with bilingual brains, having two culture streams to tap into. I really want my kids to have those opportunities.

 

Some Welsh language activism is off putting but mostly my experience of Welsh is of a positive, vibrant and very much living everyday language.

 

I'll leave it at that though, because Allegro.

[Skizzer]

I'd always thought y in Welsh was pronounced ee - is that ever the case or does it depend on the context? Have I been getting it wrong for years?

It's u that's pronounced 'ee'. Y is normally pronounced 'uh'. As in Cymru ('come-ree'). Louise is right though, y is pronounced 'ee' at the end of a word; in fact you sometimes see Cymru spelled Cymry in older documents.

 

That might be down to the ignorant, patronising English though. See post 7 for details.

[richardmorris]

I'm all for Welsh culture, but my history is tempered by my dad, who was born in Wales of Welsh parents and grandparents, but when attending bangor teacher training college in the early 1960s was told he wasn't really Welsh as he didn't speak it. Welsh nationalists then made it very difficult for non Welsh speakers - friends of my parents ( Welsh born and bread) had their camerthenshire holiday home burnt out in the 80s.

 

My main problem has always been people speaking English who then switch to Welsh when a stranger walks in. As if a, they're conducting a national secret discourse, and b, you couldn't understand them, and c. Would be interested anyway. Some of our teachers did this which obviously showed that they didn't think much of their own Welsh teaching! In shops when they did this I always made a point of saying bore da ( borra darr) to them.

 

Anyway, this is very off topic from the lovely scenic allegro photos.

[Alusilber]

Don't knock Welsh, it (or at least older forms of it) was once the native language of Britain, before the Angles, Saxons, Danes, Irish etc came here and brought their foreign languages with them

[richardmorris]

Well... It isn't a made up language.

English has loads of borrowed words, and new words. Why shouldn't the Welsh language grow as new things happen?

And actually, microwave is microdan, not popty-ping.

I know really, but still,several members of church in wrexham call it y popty ping.

[dollywobbler]

It's not true that they start speaking Welsh when an English person walks in. They always speak Welsh! But it's very common in some parts to switch between the two, even mid-sentence sometime. You should see my Facebook feed. Don't be so suspicious!

[richardmorris]

It's not true that they start speaking Welsh when an English person walks in. They always speak Welsh! But it's very common in some parts to switch between the two, even mid-sentence sometime. You should see my Facebook feed. Don't be so suspicious!

It is. I've experienced it. Not because English, but because stranger.

[Skizzer]

NICE ALLEGRO.

[Peblig]

Some of the posts above are frankly, ignorant. Please read this - https://whywelsh.wordpress.com/

 

Plus, the comments on how to pronounce Welsh are generally wrong.

 

But, to avoid going off at a tangent, Bwlch Y Groes is pronounced Boo-ull-ch (ch as in loch) Uh Gr-oh-ess. Let's get back to cars and avoid the casual racism please.

 

And a microwave is a meicrodon. Microwave Oven = Popty Meicrodon. The Popty Ping thing was a joke that some people seem to have failed to get. But that has nothing to do with Bwlch Y Groes.

[mat_the_cat]

Round here I'd say it's "uh velinheli" or "bet-us uh coid" but I think in natural speech that might come out between the two; say "bet-us uh coid" fast enough and it kinds of morphs into the "bet-us ee coid" you might hear.

 

That's pretty much where I'd picked up the y = ee assumption from. But at least I progressed from Betsy Co-ed...

 

Back OT, it used to be on my scenic detour to work, and I went along to a 2CV meet there a few years ago:

 

[richardmorris]

Please elaborate. No one seems to have been ignorant nor racist. You've been a member on here for three years and sole post is to moan about Welsh pronunciation?

[Louise2cv]

Meicrodon ah yes, I thought it didn't look right, my mistake.

 

However, up here groes would definitely be closer to "voice". We live in Groeslon and I have never heard it pronounced gr-oh-ess lon. Having said that, it's hard to write down pronunciation.

 

I'm trying to work out if my Allegro went that way on its way up to me...

[richardmorris]

I'd say groicelon too. Must be n Wales voice!

[Asimo]