Shiter instructables: Winter veg oil tips and tricks

[forddeliveryboy]

There are loads of man-in-the-pub-sez type rumours about veg-running, so as there must be at least a dozen of us on here running veg in these temps (and reading the Moog's probs with fuel starvation) I'm prompted to jot these snippets down:

 

Gloopy fuel = bad, obv. Leave some of your mix in a jamjar outside overnight if you're not sure how bad things are, the sample will probably go gloopier than what's in-tank becoz physics. Thick fuel = vacuum = leaks = air = FTP.

 

Petrol added = thinner fuel = good. Up to about 10%, beyond which there can be vapour-lock.

 

Diesel added = slightly thinner fuel. But slippery-additives and better mpg = good.

 

Kero = mega-illegal unless you're in Norway. But awesome, perfect additive for a diesel genny running on veg.

 

Jubilee-style clips = leaks. The real thing don't crimp the pipe so no gap for air. (See pics)

 

In-tank strainer = bad, punch three or four holes in it to a max size of about 80% of the pipe ID. Fit an inline filter under the bonnet (see pic below) - way easier (and cheaper) to clean/change and if the tank's filthy, it steadily cleans it out rather than keeping it all in the tank. Result = more power and better response to the accelerator.

 

No in-built fuel heater and sub-zero temps? Easy fix - T the return back into the supply line before the filter.

 

  

 

I think both Laquer Peel and meself have run in temps way under -15C on high veg % no bother, without the help of blowtorches, mains-powered engine heaters or owt fancy like that. Why spend the price of two decent family holidays every year on fuel when waste veg is increasingly cheap and plentiful?

 

Knackered glow plugs are a bad idea, as is low compression or worn injector nozzles. But a kettle of boiling water over the IP and the injector pipes will usually see a non-starter fire into life - that goes for those running on diesel, too.

[forddeliveryboy]

People are now even experimenting with veg in common rail as prices fall to banger levels - it needs blending with diesel and a little petrol, there's talk of 70% being ok. Rapeseed oil makes your engine run better and more economically compared with GM Soya, and doesn't gel until -15C or lower - the Soya stuff is starting to gel at +4C and so needs loads more diesel and petrol to keep it useable.

 

I ran a Lucas-pumped PSA diesel over 30,000 miles at high veg% and down to -10C no bother on 75% ish veg, eventually I lost at cambelt roulette. You just have not to rev the things from stone cold. Some of the worst cars for veg can be old Mercs - they've a tendency to gum the rings due to retarded timing and short stroke cylinders. There were several failures of these engines over on the vegoildiesel forum, which always surprises folk.

 

When I started in the mid 2000s, a gingerly-poured bottle of sunflower oil into the Merc convinced me it was going to wreck things even though I knew and understood how it couldn't. Slowly the realisation grew that it's a better fuel than mineral oil diesel - which needs many nasty additives to burn clean-ish and not soot up an engine. When a mate and I changed the HG on a VW which had run rapeseed oil for the best part of 100,000 miles, neither of us could believe how shiny and clean the combustion chambers were - unlike anything we'd ever seen.

 

Five years ago it was much sought-after as pump prices soared, now govt has taken away tax breaks for commercial bio-diesel production and FF prices have crashed there's a lot of unwanted oil sitting at the back of hotels and restaurants, much of it the good stuff. Go back ten or more years and they were paying to have it taken away.

[320touring]

I have this very day managed to wrestle 3 of 4 glowplugs out the 306 and fit new.

 

this makes it much happier to start, So I'll be getting some WVO action on at next fill.

 

I have previously run an old Polo 1.9D (Lucas) on 50% svo (new), but am contemplating trying WVO on the 306-which also has a Lucas pump

 

So far its had a full service, glowplugs and fuel filter in the last 500 miles.

 

Where can I fit an inline filter on an XUD?

 

I Filter my own down to 5 microns, and buy it dewatered.

 

do I start with a light mix 25% or just go straight to 50%?

 

thanks

[colnerov]

 Hi, With regard to veg oil in common rail engines. About 3 or 4 years ago I was talking to a commercial recovery mechanic and he commented that he was starting to pull in trucks because of no go. Apparently they were getting problems on Bio diesel and common rail with algae growing in the fuel system and it clogging up filters because the engines were putting a lot of heat into the fuel and encouraging growth of it. I know cars might not be running for such extended periods as a commercial vehicle, But it will be something to bear in mind and look out for, having glass bowls on the bottom of fuel filters will enable an early warning.

 

 Colin

[forddeliveryboy]

Where can I fit an inline filter on an XUD?

 

I Filter my own down to 5 microns, and buy it dewatered.

 

do I start with a light mix 25% or just go straight to 50%?

 

thanks

 

Fit the inline pre-filter somewhere in the supply line between where it appears under the bonnet and before the main filter element. That way any crud coming from the tank isn't going to make it to the main filter.

 

Running a Lucas pump in winter, I'd want the fuel heated as well as poss, so either do the mod to the existing housing using a 1p or 2p piece (can't remember which) http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Filter_modification_for_Peugeot_and_Citroen or install a separate coolant-powered heater. I used one out of a combi boiler which cost a tenner, superb! Or just T the return, making sure all air is purged.

 

It's up to you how high to go - maybe 50/45/5 veg/diesel/pet for 0C ambient and perhaps to 80/20 veg/diesel in mid-summer. I ran 75% veg in the coldest weather, but it was rapeseed which is a LOT thinner and doesn't crud up the injectors at all, unlike the Soya stuff.

 

There's no warning of pump failure, it's simply a factor of fuel viscosity and pump speed. I let the engine idle for a bit before setting off, perhaps 15s in summer and a couple of minutes when frosty. Obv increase the revs progressively until the engine's heated right through. When I was driving around in -10C on a 75% mix, I limited the thing to 2,500rpm - plenty fast enough anyway with a turbo-diesel.

[forddeliveryboy]

Hi Colin, algae is a problem with pure diesel too, not just biofuels. If it happens with biodiesel then the chances are it was either poorly made (there is no British Standard and no official testing - in Germany it's tested pretty stringently) or the tanks had algae in small amounts to begin with and it liked the bio more than diesel. Easily sorted with an additive - or better still, well made fuel.

[twosmoke300]

Ask any farmer with a combine about the fuel bug !

[320touring]

Thanks very much for the tips- the fuel heater mod looks like a fair set of opportunities for introducing air leaks-futher reading/staring at the 306 required.

 

How does the filter body come off?

 

I'll scout out potential inline filter options tomorrow-as I reckon I'll beed to fill the tank in the next day or two. I imagine that I'll need one that doesnt restrict the flow too much when fitted- is it worth increasing the line size?

 

Not too fussed re fuel pump failure tbh. It'll likely get a Bosch fitted if it survives another few weeks:)

[Cavcraft]

I often read about fuel/pre-heaters, and to be fair they must help, but I've always just lobbed veg in and been lucky to have had good batteries on my cars.

The old 306 had new glow plugs and started without too much grief in all weathers on 100% veg.

[beko1987]

How coincidental!

 

Mine is running well on a high veg concentration (30l of veg to probably £10 of derv) after wills visit to Danny last week. It was running fine tbh, started fine as proven in the clag thread.

 

But, heeding advice on here I lobbed a tenner of this in on the way home

 

 

I'll brim her up with veg in the morning when I can see what I'm doing and not slop veg all over me/he car.

[forddeliveryboy]

^^ Is that on a Lucas pump then? 2 galls of pez (if that's what it is) sounds a lot, even then - it's going to be at least 25% isn't it? Must be a green diesel pump.

 

320 - if you're not worried about wrecking the pump then why not do a test, upping the % from 50 to 90 and seeing if it survives?! That mod on the biopowered wiki is meant to be a blinder, easy to do and failsafe, not prone to air leaks. Loads have done it, even French veg forums have linked to it.

[320touring]

320 - if you're not worried about wrecking the pump then why not do a test, upping the % from 50 to 90 and seeing if it survives?! That mod on the biopowered wiki is meant to be a blinder, easy to do and failsafe, not prone to air leaks. Loads have done it, even French veg forums have linked to it.

Cool- so how does the filter body come off then? I'll check it out further and see what I can do..

 

got some veg filtering so will aim to start with a 50%

 

Edit: I see its a 13mm bolt accesses from inside once filter is removed;)

[beko1987]

^^ Is that on a Lucas pump then? 2 galls of pez (if that's what it is) sounds a lot, even then - it's going to be at least 25% isn't it? Must be a green diesel pump.

 

320 - if you're not worried about wrecking the pump then why not do a test, upping the % from 50 to 90 and seeing if it survives?! That mod on the biopowered wiki is meant to be a blinder, easy to do and failsafe, not prone to air leaks. Loads have done it, even French veg forums have linked to it.

Nope, bosch pump. 50 litres in the tank, so 10 of pez and 40 of veg sounds about fair.

 

Like I said, it was running well without it, but I don't want it conking out on the m40 at 6.45am in minus figures. Plus I've never done it before!

 

If you think it's a lot of pez, then I'll happily run it down to half a tank then top it up with moar veg

[Lacquer Peel]

Those PSA plastic fuel filter housings are hateful, but I reckon if you're meticulous and clean you can get them to seal ok.

 

Not long before my Xantia estate was rear ended I bypassed the standard filter housing with a spin on filter, it ran so much better.

 

I was running straight waste soya oil recently because skintness and ended up nearly screwing up a night out with Miss Peel with my mingebaggery. Great job. Don't use oil unless it's totally clear and runny at the ambient temperature, it's not worth the hassle.

[forddeliveryboy]

Beko, 10 pez to 40 other is still 20% which I'd say is a lot. People have come unstuck with much more than 10%, it can start vapour-locking where it hits a hot spot (for example the heat exchanger at the base of the filter housing) once everything's up to temperature, made worse if you stop the engine and restart - or try to - when still warm or hot. You'll also lose a fair amount of power (esp noticeable if it's not a turbo) - I'd be adding veg or diesel to knock that % down a bit.

 

The VAG TDis like 1% of pez whenever it's under 10C because the injector nozzles have several tiny holes and inject twice instead of one big one and one squirt as with the indirect engines like the XUD - I'd say 5% ish petrol when it's subzero for an XUD, with 10% diesel - to be on the safe side. But it's worth experimenting alittle to get the best results - every car's a bit different, all used oil is different.

 

The most I've ever used was about 7% when it was down to near -20C, with about 10% diesel (4cyl TDi). Having said that, there's an American vegoiler with a forum nick jhanananda who would use up to 50% petrol with veg and reckoned the power available rose. That was in massive Yank diesels, though, where revs stay low and the technology is less advanced. Could have been fatty oil, too - the petrol would dissolve the fats (which are very energy dense). http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/mybbforum/forumdisplay.php?fid=25&page=6

[PiperCub]

Hi Colin, algae is a problem with pure diesel too, not just biofuels. If it happens with biodiesel then the chances are it was either poorly made (there is no British Standard and no official testing - in Germany it's tested pretty stringently) or the tanks had algae in small amounts to begin with and it liked the bio more than diesel. Easily sorted with an additive - or better still, well made fuel.

 

Ask any farmer with a combine about the fuel bug !

 

Or motorboat owners, they have the same issues with both white or red diesel. 

[forddeliveryboy]

LP, those plastic housings can leak but my issue was always the small size of the filter element - a bit bigger on the 2.1s. The bigger the element surface the less resistance to flow which is obv what you want with vegoil, particularly that Soya stuff.

I was once on an early morning run to the airport with a future MiL, I was a novice at the whole veg thing. At the time I was hot filtering through a couple of old pillow cases then a 5u sock, not letting the stuff settle for long at ambient - it was good oil generally but the latest few cubies had (it turned out) come complete with some fats after the menu had changed. It'd been mild for the time of year and there'd been no running problems - plus the filter wasn't very old. No worries then.

 

In the old 124s the filter sits right at the front of the engine for Vmax/max cooling on autobahns. Cold air rushing over it cooled the fuel and those fats started dropping out, slowly clogging the element so that Vmax was about 40 on the level. There were hills, too. WIth the heater on full (which routes the coolant through a fuel heater) we made it to the station with a minute to spare - you live and learn.

[forddeliveryboy]

Or motorboat owners, they have the same issues with both white or red diesel. 

 

It's a huge problem for standby generators too, there are specialists who go round trying to sort the problem, which suggests they never do, completely. It thrives on oxygen in water, which in the British climate is everywhere. Obviously fuel which isn't dry to begin with is a massive boost for the bug - loads of biodiesel is pretty poor, with soaps, methanol and water in it. It helps give all plant-based fuel oil a bad name - most people reckon it will knacker their engine, having heard their local garage on the matter.

 

I've left cars with 90% veg in the fuel tank for two or more years (not really recommended) and there's never been any problem, with either oxidation or the dreaded bug. Diesel does have some -icide or similar in as a matter of course, though that's the least of your worries if you're sitting behind a diesel car or truck - some of the other additives are very nasty on the lungs by the time they come out of the tailpipe, added to which your body has to deal with the nano-particles which common rail injection creates (and which pass directly through your lungs into the blood stream). Busy motorways - not good for your health.

[twosmoke300]

The diesel bug is a royal pain in the ass . The jollop you put on the tank kills it but the slime is still in the tank and keeps blocking filters and outlets .

Tank off - steam ( not pressure wash ) out and get bone dry before refitting is the only way .

[explosive-cabbage]

I have this very day managed to wrestle 3 of 4 glowplugs out the 306 and fit new.

 

 

NOOOO! This pisses me off! Do it properly FFS or don't bother doing it at all!!

 

Remove all the removable bits from the back left of the fuel pump, (fuel lines, unions, etc) remove the injector lines from the left hand pair, and go at it with a swan-neck spanner!

[KruJoe]

Calm down bro!

It's an old shitter, and it's much improved already. He can do that one when the pump comes off for the Bosch swap in a few weeks.

[320touring]

NOOOO! This pisses me off! Do it properly FFS or don't bother doing it at all!!

 

Remove all the removable bits from the back left of the fuel pump, (fuel lines, unions, etc) remove the injector lines from the left hand pair, and go at it with a swan-neck spanner!

I hear ya but 2 reasons I didn't..

 

1. Only fully functioning car available-totally disabling it by removing fuel system is more than I wanted to do.

 

2. As per your bro's observation:)

 

if its getting kept and the pump changed then number 2 can be done!

[beko1987]

Beko, 10 pez to 40 other is still 20% which I'd say is a lot. People have come unstuck with much more than 10%, it can start vapour-locking where it hits a hot spot (for example the heat exchanger at the base of the filter housing) once everything's up to temperature, made worse if you stop the engine and restart - or try to - when still warm or hot. You'll also lose a fair amount of power (esp noticeable if it's not a turbo) - I'd be adding veg or diesel to knock that % down a bit.

 

And that is why I'm shit at maths! But it's done now, WCPGW? Seemed fine this morning on the way in, no noticable loss of power and I brimmed it up to the filler cap. When it goes down to 1/2 in a week or so I'll top it up without putting any more pez in.

[oldcars]

How coincidental!

 

Mine is running well on a high veg concentration (30l of veg to probably £10 of derv) after wills visit to Danny last week. It was running fine tbh, started fine as proven in the clag thread.

 

But, heeding advice on here I lobbed a tenner of this in on the way home

 

IMAG0760.jpg

 

I'll brim her up with veg in the morning when I can see what I'm doing and not slop veg all over me/he car.

Do you ever folk saying you miss fueling the diesel?

[beko1987]

Do you ever folk saying you miss fueling the diesel?

I was the only one at the station, but I put it up on facebook and got a few people commenting 'oh noes' about it!

 

It did feel slightly odd I have to say, mainly because I make myself double check when filling up the meriva and my car one after the other occasionally.

[forddeliveryboy]

So after years of running on waste veg and a (polished and dried) waste veg which I reckon is better than any forecourt slurp, I cocked up yesterday, big time. Since it was in part fuel related, I thought it was worth giving the world at large the benefit of my oversight.

 

This car has been used for nothing but <7 mile trips recently, often in the dark. On Saturday I took it all of half a mile, then yesterday evening when we were due out it wouldn't bloody start. It was the battery which prevented things, too many short trips in mid-winter, with starting taking a couple of seconds when it's freezing and so lots of amps, there just wasn't enough juice in it. Curses from gf and self-inflicted ones too, for being so stupid. 

 

Fortunately there were a couple of kettles of hot water on the wood stove which soon heated the IP and injectors/head enough to make a second gear jump start down the drive quite easy. Felt a fool, having left the jump leads at the workshop. It didn't help being in the middle of a snowstorm, bonnet up, undoing the crap engine cover. You live and learn.

[Station]

There's a Fifth Gear test of running a petrol car on diesel and vice-versa. An Escort diesel and an Astra mk3 petrol (or could've been the other way round). Either car ran surprisingly well running either even after flushing the tanks. This can't be a joke surely, especially diesel in a petrol car.

 

Last year diesel XM was brown trousers 'please start' every cold morning. Heating up the glow plugs twice or three times helped, as did leaving the key on until you hear the relay click off. The Merc has a knackered 100a battery, I've had to jump it with a spare in the boot when I first use it everyday.

A new or working starter does wonders as well, especially when crank sensor is trying to find the signal.

[Lacquer Peel]

Some manufacturers recommend mixing a percentage of petrol with diesel in very cold conditions.

[beko1987]

I've bravely run away from veg for now!

 

I think my issues started with putting the wrong ratio of pez to veg, which caused much gumming. Thinned it out with derv, ran that a bit then put 20l of veg in. Then it dropped to -3 in the mornings. Were I able to step back, and play with mixtures regularly I would crack it, but I don't. I drive to work and back, barely see the car otherwise! It's fine in summer though, even on neat (gets a bit down on power sometimes though doing that but nothing too noticable)

 

She runs so much better now with nearly a full tank of derv. Gonna stash the 60l I have left of the veg until the summer, and keep all the empty cubies ready to make another order for SF

[forddeliveryboy]

I've bravely run away from veg for now!

 

I think my issues started with putting the wrong ratio of pez to veg, which caused much gumming. Thinned it out with derv, ran that a bit then put 20l of veg in. Then it dropped to -3 in the mornings. 

 

'Gumming' is a description of the drying, oxidation (with contact to the air) or baking (through partial combsution) of veg oil, most used to describe what happens to the piston rings when there's unburnt oil flowing down the pistons when excess, unburnt fuel is pooling. It's the precursor to engine failure. 

 

Adding excess petrol to veg can cause dropout and suspension of fats in poor oil, which then blocks the filter if things aren't warmed up. I think this what you're describing, beko - as well as vapour-locking of the mix in the pipes on top of a hot engine. Similar bad things would happen if you tried to run a petrol car on 40% diesel.