Writeoff?

[nigel bickle]

How little does it now take to write a car off these days?Whilst in my friendly MOT station this morning (as you might guess -I have long standing regular booked appointments!) I noticed a nice, albeit bland,clean little'R' plate Fiesta being pushed out the bay in prep for a days work.Helping to push it (- sadly,over my own foot) I was told the story that the genuine 1 ladyowner low mileage car was likely to be scrapped.Seems the exhaust had come adrift, dug in, speared its way though the passenger footwell (which must have been exciting!)-and the gear linkage felt 'odd' now.Looked to little ol' me that an hours welding, a replacement exhaust system & 10 mins straightening the linkage in a vicewould have it sorted.Instead of which they are going to throw it away & force her into some nasty modern Korean shite- or suchlike.Still- at least she'll be ''green''......

[ashmicro]

some old giffer in a Focus tagged my Jag last week. When I was down at the reapirers' to pick it up, I saw a new model Mondeo with pretty minor frontal damage. The chap told me it was to be scrapped due, in the main, to the cost of replacing the airbags and associated trim.Shocker.

[Guest]

I hope that's R-plate prefix reg and not R-plate suffix reg, an early mk1 Fiesta is worth decent coin these days.

[Volksy]

I does seem crazy that for something so minor it would be written off, however I forget that 'R' reg is now an 11 year old car. Insurance practice will dictate that the car would have had to have a new floorpan on one side i would have thought, rather than just being welded up, and therefore that alone would, in the views of an assesor consign it to the bin.Sad really.

[outlaw118]

I agree, it's outrageous. I bashed my Astra (rip) xmas 07, bent the bonnet, broken headlight.Did what I was told, took it to an approved repairer, and they told me, basically, to empty the boot and glovebox, they'd cart it off for me there and then!!I refused, and sourced the bits myself (bonnet-green on graphite car, but wtf- headlight, nsf indicator) for £35!I paid the grease-monkeys round the corner £100 cash to sort it (I couldn't be arsed, it was cold) and bob was indeed my uncle!

[Anglevan]

Depends how long you've got to discuss this one - all sorts of factors come into it. Give you a scenario.Mr A has a 1995 BMW 316 and has a light scrape against a gate post damaging both N/S doors. His own fault but needs 2 doors to be rite.Mr A goes to local but nice 'Fred in the shed' He quotes him 2 second hand doors and flash the colour down the side - the second hand doors have the mouldings and the trims saving more money. Total bill including doors for arguments sake £400 - not on total loss register, no insurance involvement guys happy and back on the road.Now same car differant scenario..Mr A driving along and some nut case pulls out of a side road and hits his N/S doors. The same Mr A thinks 'Ah' i'll claim on the insurance, he could still use Fred in the shed but decides as insurance paying he'll take to BMW. Said Mr A goes to BMW (or to save argument any franchised repairer) They quote for 2 new doors, trims, mouldings and flash down the side - total bill £2000, cars worth say £1000. Oh did I say My A also wants a like for like vehicle while his is being repaired (Wont go down the loss of vale or whiplash that probably also is being claimed)Insurance guy goes out agrees figures with BMW but contacts MR A and suggets he use an alternative repairer / maybe consider second hand parts. Mr A goes no way not my fault I want new doors, I want BMW to repair etc and i'm also going to claim £125 a day hire while off the road.What does the insurance guy do but write it off and CAT C it for his trouble as he's folowing the ABI code of practice.Us lot see said BMW at scrappers and say why was that written off only wanted 2 doors. I could give you more scenarios but that might sum some of the issues ??discuss

[CortinaDave]

In about 2000 I had a J reg 1.8 ghia i orion... was a lovely car, with only 60 odd K on the clock. I'd paid £1200 for itAnyway some daft biddy ran up the backside of it at a roundabout and put a small crack in the back bumper.I had a quick look and told her not to worry about it..She was in a right state though and insisted that as it was her fault she would get it sorted..So a week or so later i got a call to take it to Ford for assessment and left it there... and was then told the insurance were writing it off!Over a bloody cracked bumper! Insurance paid out nearly £2k to me and I bought back the "salvage" for a couple of hundred and ran it another year before selling it on (still with the crack) Great for me, but utterly ridiculous.

[Mr Lobster]

It takes surprisingly little to 'write off' a car these days.Had a 54 plate Kangoo van at work the other week, very clean, 50k miles and generally a decent enough thing. Customer brings it back with a dent sufficient to require a new sliding door and rear quarter. Result of that is its now gone for salvage as insurance consider it not worth it.Really, anything over about five years old that acquires any moderate damage repair will be written of even though it is easiliy repairable.

[Guest]

I think the whole recorded write-off system is incredibly flawed and should be abolished to be honest. I reckon it lures people into a false sense of security in many ways, especially the idea that if they HPi it and it comes up OK it's fine, when clearly there's a lot of people out there repairing unrecorded damage.

[Volksy]

There are a certain amount of cars that slip through the 'recorded' net. Ex hire cars for example generally do not get put through the insurance system. Someone I knew a few years back used to make a good living from buying 'written off' hire cars from a salvage auction down bedfordshire way, and we're talking 5 week old focus' and Mundaneos, meganes, espaces, vans etc etc. Some had really quite substancial damage to them, and due to the major hire companies buying them is such bulk, and therefore the cost of replacement is minimal, they never claimed. Just sent the remains to auction.This chap used to repair them using second hand panels and parts - including stitching in second hand chassis legs and boot floors.... Then he would sell them back to main dealers at a massive profit!Also as no 'new' parts had been bought from the dealer, if the customer buying the car, and the dealer themselves did a check with parts against the registration none of it showed up.He didn't have to declare any repairs, as they were off HPi, and the dealers got in cheap cars that were then in demand.I must say he bought carefully, making sure there was a demand for the model, things like Focus Autos and Diesel Mondeos when the new generation one first came out. Working at the garage repairing some of these for him, I was the first person in the UK to repair a headgasket on a New Mondeo Duratec (as it had bust its rad in the crash and been left running). I called Ford to get the tech info for the vehicle and the dealer had none (they had only been out 4 weeks) and were somewhat cagey about supplying any too!He only got caught out once or twice, and just claimed ignorance. Reduced the price to the dealer and if they didn't bite, sent it to auction.

[TheScrapman]

I think the whole recorded write-off system is incredibly flawed and should be abolished to be honest. I reckon it lures people into a false sense of security in many ways, especially the idea that if they HPi it and it comes up OK it's fine, when clearly there's a lot of people out there repairing unrecorded damage.

Absolutely, but it sometimes works in the autoshite lovers favour. I've just bought a very tidy '98 S320 (long wheel base model) which I'm picking up next weekend.The bloke I have bought it off paid good money for it, but when he received the v5, he realised that it had been cat d written off at some point, so he threw all his toys out of the pram and sold it to me very cheap! Hurrah!A little digging revealed that it was written off when the seats were stolen. It's been used as a limo all it's life, and always looked after otherwise. Double hurrah!

[Pillock]

AFAIK the writeoff limit hasn't changed... it's around 2/3rds of the book price of the car. What HAS changed is that bodyshops are racking their labour rates up, because new cars cost more, hence they can get away with charging insurance companies more to fix them.To be fair new advances in repair, such as waterbased paint and plastic panels have caused their fair share of price hikes, repairers having to train staff and buy new equipment. They need to make that cash back somehow.But, because they charge the same hourly rate for a 1986 Escort as they do for a 2006 BMW, insurers won't pay it.A rear 1/4 panel was just fitted to our 51 Saxo, and that was borderline writeoff.

[pompei]

When a car is Cat C or D and repaired, is there any way of 1. Finding out why it was written off.2. Establishing that any repairs have been properly done.Mrs P and I are shortly both going to be in the market for some older stuff - if write-offs save big coin then that's great, but not if the little'un's safety is compromised.

[Father Ted]

Mr A goes no way not my fault I want new doors, I want BMW to repair etc and i'm also going to claim £125 a day hire while off the road.What does the insurance guy do but write it off and CAT C it for his trouble as he's folowing the ABI code of practice.discuss

Now if the claim isnt Mr. A's fault he can AFAIK demand that the car is returned to its pre accident state and insist its not written off, fair play if that means second hand doors, I have no problems with that, but to Cat C the car becuase Mr. 3rd PartysInsuranceMan says its going to cost more than the car is worth is not on, and Im pretty sure not legally enforcable. i know I have had a run in with the insurance before when they wanted to write off the wifes car for want of a drivers door. I dug my heels in and they did repair the car in the end (all the time the car hire was racking up). I also had to hide a car once that the hire company were trying to take back as they said that the repair time of the car had taken longer than the garage estimate and the insurance company woud not pay for it any more. I told them that wasnt my fault, that they should take it up with the approved repair shop, the third party's insurance company, Direct Line, the fugging Pope and that they could get bent if they thouht they were getting their Astra back untill I was mobile again, so I hid the car untill I got mine back.

[MrRegieRitmo]

Unsurprisingly perhaps, my colleagues V40 has been written off, however, they wished to query the accident report as it stated that there was damage to the passenger side which we weren't aware of, the car did not strike anything on anywhere other than the front as could be seen in the picture. It was also noted down that the car was not driveable when we had been informed by the recovery driver when he transported us to the crash repair centre that it would be driveable! However, they soon gave up their vain pursuit of having the write off decision reversed when it was explained that the front impact had shifted the panels along the passenger side so that they would need total realignment, so with the also required bonnet, bumper, lights, grille, radiator plus maybe other things, the quote was £2995 or around that, making it a write off when the car can be replaced for a coupla thou. Even with the quote possibly being the wrong side of reality, if you knock a few hundred off they'd still be better off finding themselves a replacement vehicle than trying to resurrect this one!

[Mr Lobster]

There are a certain amount of cars that slip through the 'recorded' net. Ex hire cars for example generally do not get put through the insurance system. Someone I knew a few years back used to make a good living from buying 'written off' hire cars from a salvage auction down bedfordshire way, and we're talking 5 week old focus' and Mundaneos, meganes, espaces, vans etc etc. .

Generally depends on the rental company tbh. A lot of the nationals are effectively self insured so end up paying for their own repairs. We have a £20k excess at work and as we can buy cars so cheaply at the moment an awful lots is sold as salvage rather than getting repaired and a fair amount is unrecorded.

[Volksy]

Most IIRC, were ex Avis, Enterprise, and Hertz.

[retrogeezer]

I love a nice cat c/d write-off, I bought this Vectra in 2003 for £300 (market value would have been about £1500 at the time)

 

 

One 2nd hand wing £20, one indicator(£5), a wheel trim (£2), some araldite for the bumper fixing, 2 hours polishing and a Halfords touch-up later:

 

 

I used it for 3 years and then sold it for £700.

[ayd]

prime example

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1998-VAUXHALL-AST ... 240%3A1318

[Anglevan]

I think the whole recorded write-off system is incredibly flawed and should be abolished to be honest. I reckon it lures people into a false sense of security in many ways, especially the idea that if they HPi it and it comes up OK it's fine, when clearly there's a lot of people out there repairing unrecorded damage.

Totally agree with this for one simple reason 51 plate Astra needs a few front end parts - car worth £1500 repair costs £1600 makes it a CAT C 08 plate Porsche worth £40000 has £30000 worth of damage makes it a CAT D !!!! would you buy a porsche knowing that £30,000 damage was on it - dont nit pic this, dont read into it too much it's just an example.

There are a certain amount of cars that slip through the 'recorded' net. Ex hire cars for example generally do not get put through the insurance system. Someone I knew a few years back used to make a good living from buying 'written off' hire cars from a salvage auction down bedfordshire way, and we're talking 5 week old focus' and Mundaneos, meganes, espaces, vans etc etc.

It's not just hire companies - it's really anyone thats self insured. They get more for damaged vehicles if not recorded. If vehicle should be a CAT C, not recorded and HPI wont show owt. Some manufactures record parts ordered against a VIN but thats not fool proof as second hand parts may be fitted.

AFAIK the writeoff limit hasn't changed... it's around 2/3rds of the book price of the car. What HAS changed is that bodyshops are racking their labour rates up, because new cars cost more, hence they can get away with charging insurance companies more to fix them.

I dont know any insurers that work on the 2/3 rds scenario - they did years and years ago but most work on a percentage for eg PAV up to £1000 - 10 % up to £3000 - 15% up to £7000 - 25% they are diffences as it all depends what the insurer agreed with the salvage agent. theyre maybe some insurers still work on the 2/3 rds but i'm not aware of any and the big players certainly dont.

When a car is Cat C or D and repaired, is there any way of 1. Finding out why it was written off. 2. Establishing that any repairs have been properly done. Mrs P and I are shortly both going to be in the market for some older stuff - if write-offs save big coin then that's great, but not if the little'un's safety is compromised.

Simple answer is no - unless you contact previous keeper (s) .It would not bother me in the slightest if the vehicle was a previous total loss so long as repaired properly. I know what i'm looking for so i'm not bothered but if you dont then dont dip your fingers in the water you might get bitten. Irrespective of hpi if it's a lot of money that you cant afford to lose get an independant engineers report.

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anglevan wrote: Mr A goes no way not my fault I want new doors, I want BMW to repair etc and i'm also going to claim £125 a day hire while off the road. What does the insurance guy do but write it off and CAT C it for his trouble as he's folowing the ABI code of practice. discuss Now if the claim isnt Mr. A's fault he can AFAIK demand that the car is returned to its pre accident state and insist its not written off, fair play if that means second hand doors, I have no problems with that, but to Cat C the car becuase Mr. 3rd PartysInsuranceMan says its going to cost more than the car is worth is not on, and Im pretty sure not legally enforcable. i know I have had a run in with the insurance before when they wanted to write off the wifes car for want of a drivers door. I dug my heels in and they did repair the car in the end (all the time the car hire was racking up). I also had to hide a car once that the hire company were trying to take back as they said that the repair time of the car had taken longer than the garage estimate and the insurance company woud not pay for it any more. I told them that wasnt my fault, that they should take it up with the approved repair shop, the third party's insurance company, Direct Line, the fugging Pope and that they could get bent if they thouht they were getting their Astra back untill I was mobile again, so I hid the car untill I got mine back.

Sorry father ted but your wrong on this - you cant demand that it's repaired. There is an FOS ruling that you can demand that it's repaired up to market value (and the insurers cant allow for salvage) but other than that you will not be suported if you take it to the FOS.In the scenario i gave the person would not accept second hand bits - if you do then fine but not every one will. You did well to get that sorted, i've heard where coutesy cars have been hidden like you mention and they are reported stolen and you get prosecuted. So good luck if you sort it but it's not as simple - especially on a discussion form. Over a pint i'm sure we could have a lengthy discussion

[Father Ted]

Sorry father ted but your wrong on this - you cant demand that it's repaired. There is an FOS ruling that you can demand that it's repaired up to market value (and the insurers cant allow for salvage) but other than that you will not be suported if you take it to the FOS

Over a pint i'm sure we could have a lengthy discussion

Fair enough, ive obvioulsy been misinformed (and will STFU) - though it seems unfair that you can loose your pride an joy because (despite being kept in an airtight tupperware box, never taken out in the rain and only done 500 miles a year from new) the Autoshed is only worth £2.50 accordig to Glasses / cap or Parkers (please dont tell me that loss adjusters use autotrader to guage a value as one tried to tell me when i wrote a Laguna off as his value and what similar cars were being advertised for were poles appart). I wonder how many old Mini owners are being stung because Parkers say its worth a couple of chocolate buttons, but the sceen tax say its worth a bag of sand?

 

So, correct me if Im wrong, that means that your £1000 car can in effect have £1000 worth of repair work before its written off, rather than £1000 less say £300 salvage?

If your up north i'll treat you to a pint here....

[Anglevan]

So, correct me if Im wrong, that means that your £1000 car can in effect have £1000 worth of repair work before its written off, rather than £1000 less say £300 salvage?

Yeah spot on, the engineers will deny it or say not company policy etc but tough thats the ruling sent out by the governing body.As for 'our type of cars' It's real shame that your right some engineers are blinkered and just look in a book and say thats the value. There's good ones out there. My wifes mk2 XR2 was bought as an insurance write off Cat D (should have been a C, and some engineers might have cat 'B'd it, such is the descrepencies out there) I paid £100 for it with 30,000 genuine. Repaired it for a second hand door and new genuine ford sill fitted where damaged. Still looks mint 4 years down the line and now 43,000 on the clock... By rites the value is the market place not a guide etc. So long as your sensible they will be rite with you. If you start given 30,000K gen miles GLX models when yours is a 130,000k base model your gonna get no where.If i was to offer any advise - if you want to keep the car after been damaged before you allow an engineer to see it do your research, get a friend / local garage to estimate it (dont go to main dealers they will just up the price) Be flexible on the use of second hand parts - say from day one that no matter what the car is to be repaired. The problems occur when you dont say owt and the vehicle gets recorded (near impossible to remove a cat - but can be done ) and where up north are you for that pint

[Guest]

My wifes mk2 XR2 was bought as an insurance write off Cat D (should have been a C, and some engineers might have cat 'B'd it, such is the descrepencies out there) I paid £100 for it with 30,000 genuine. Repaired it for a second hand door and new genuine ford sill fitted where damaged. Still looks mint 4 years down the line and now 43,000 on the clock...

Got any before and after pics? That's probably near enough a £1500 motor nowadays.

[Father Ted]

and where up north are you for that pint

Preston