Trailers and towing...

[DS20]

...please tell me about them

 

It occurred to me a little while ago

1. that trailers - particularly car transporters - are cheap to hire round here

2. that I take my Saabshite and Citroenshite on long one-way trips a few times a year, involving public transport on the return leg (& I hate public transport, having commuted in and out of London for five years)

3. that my RangeRovershite is supposed to be a good tow vehicle (I've never towed with it)

 

and that I could use the RangeRovershite to transport the other stuff via trailer.

 

Only thing is, the local rental people won't let me rent a trailer as I don't have B+E entitlement - just plain B (but passed in 1999, after the magic 1997 drive-anything-entitlement).

 

 

I wondered if any of you have taken the B+E test, and if so, what was it like? Easy to get through or not? Also, is towing a car trailer (with something like a Range Rover) fairly straightforward?

 

My towing experience is...patchy. When younger and stupider, I bought a BFO 15-foot unbraked trailer that the vendor had made at home out of a Land Rover axle and girders (I bought it from a dodge address in Cowdenbeath) and towed it around behind my Accord. It was illegal because no brakes and WELL over 750kg, but the Accord seemed to cope really well and it was quite easy to manage. Is a better tow car (i.e. RangeRovershite) and a proper trailer (i.e. with brakes) going to be easier to drive, or at least no harder?

 

 

Advice appreciated Pleasethankyou in advance.

[mat_the_cat]

Is a better tow car (i.e. RangeRovershite) and a proper trailer (i.e. with brakes) going to be easier to drive?

 

Yes. With decent trailer brakes, if you stamp on the pedal you can feel them pull back on the tow hitch a moment later. RR should be fine with towing; I find it handy to drop into low box when manoeuvring tightly - even easier with an auto but if yours is manual it'll save on clutch slip. Longer trailers I find easier to reverse...I hate those tiny box trailers where you can't even see them in your mirrors until they've started the turn.

[Richard]

From what I've heard you pretty much have to go to one of those industrial training centres and pay £££ to get trailer entitlement.

 

It's getting to be a problem for outward bound type organisations. They need to tow trailers for canoes and other equipment and quite often need to be driving minibuses too. As the youngest people with automatic entitlement edge towards 40 it's hard to find people who can drive the vehicles and want to do the rest of the job.

[Taff]

I wasn't aware that there were restrictions on towing, I got mine (all the way up to C+E and hazmat) while still in the army.

 

Just avoid caravans, eh? Unless you want to be hunted down...

[dollywobbler]

I'm old enough to have trailer entitlement. Sorry. But a Range Rover is a fine tow vehicle. As long as the clutch doesn't start failing (leaky slave I think!). Not fun on the tight streets of Brizzle, I must admit...

 

Before this shot was taken, I'd had to reverse through that gap. As Mat says, the ability to drop into low box is a major advantage so you can really creep along.

[Station]

There's a section on the VOSA website which says any car that is transported using an a-frame, it is then 'treated' as a trailer and must have a light board and the car you are towing with must be correct weight.

I've read all kinds of rubbish about it being completely illegal etc. It's in black and white on the website if you look for it.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

I've often seen box trailers sign written with 'Trailer towing lessons' etc trundling around. It seems that you can just take the test though; https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-trailer-practical-test.

The requirements for trailer and load look very specific and £115. (£141 at weekends) is taking the piss for a 20 minute drive round the block and a quick reverse between cones.

If anyone needs to borrow a little box trailer that seems to fit the criteria and's the most controllable small trailer I've ever reversed,to do the test,they're welcome( it's in Milton Keynes though)

 

Seems daft that my mother- in-law that can't reverse her Lupo into an empty double garage without hitting the wall could quite legally manoeuvre a LWB Sprinter minibus and big pikey caravan, just because of when she took her test.

[Station]

A few years ago, my boss said 'can you hitch the trailer up to the Land Rover and take it up to Nantwich?' To which I replied 'I've never towed a trailer before', which then got the response 'You'll be alright', and the trailer was two metres long and had a tarp over it carrying incinerating equipment (used for disposing of cattle during the foot and mouth epidemic - basically a couple of drums which might've had Kerosene in them and a number of devices that looked like flamethrowers) and the road to Nantwich contained about 100 bends through country roads.

When we had to 'occupy' a farm full of cattle working on a case involving a dodgy farmer and about 200 cattle, I had to collect an RV (not a little campervan type vehicle, a full sized American RV) with a trailer on the back from Wigan and bring it back to Chester. I'd never driven something this big and I couldn't even see the trailer in the rear view mirror. I then had to reverse the trailer into the car park, and had everyone looking out of the office windows at my 50th attempt of reverse parking.

I found trailering to be easy if you've got a vehicle that'll pull it easily and is heavy enough (ie a 4x4). I wouldn't bother with a smallish estate with an engine smaller than 2l.

[panhard65]

I can't say about the test as I got my licence years ago and have been towing most things since. As others have said a decent big trailer is much easier to reverse etc than a horrid little single axle box. Just make sure it is well maintained with working brakes and all will be well. I have found the range rover classic is a bit light weight for the job. The discovery is better or if you really like a challenge a P38. You want a long wheelbase and either 4x4 or rear wheel drive. I think most of the "learn to tow" places use small twin axle box trailers to teach with so they will be really easy. Caravan's are a whole different story and some of the new ones even come with abs and stability controls. I would go for it and take a test it will be worth it.

[dollywobbler]

How can a Range Rover Classic be inferior to a Discovery when the kerb weights are identical? The only notable difference is that the Disco has beefier rear springs, so is less likely to sag (the Rangie should self level, but most don't do this anymore). 

 

Totally agree about diesels for towing. The Maverick was hopeless, as it just didn't have any low down grunt at all. The first time I towed a car trailer was with a Transit van, which lacked any rear windows. I found it surprisingly easy to be honest - helps that the tow vehicle was a similar width to the trailer. Towing a full-size car trailer with a car is a very different experience.

[DS20]

Thanks, all  It's good to hear that it's not too difficult - and particularly that twin-axle trailers are easier than smaller single-axle jobs (even if only for reversing).  

 

It looks like a couple of lessons and a test are in order.  I could do with being coached through the reverse-park element of the test, and also being told of the various things the examiner will be looking for on a towing test (TBH I've forgotten what my driving test was like, now).  I wish I'd passed my test before 1997 and all of this towing stuff was introduced.  

 

If a heavy unbraked trailer with a 2-litre Honda was ok, I'm sure a slightly-heavier, braked trailer with a Range Rover will be no worse.  Mine is an LSE, meaning that it is longer and heavier than the Discoveries and normal-wheelbase Range Rovers of the time, plus it has (working) air suspension which self-levels, so it shouldn't feel like driving an accelerating speedboat.  And it's automatic, which might save some clutch-slippage.  

 

 

P.S. 

There's no danger of me wanting to tow any caravans - worry not

Edited September 22, 2014 by DS20

[mercrocker]

When I worked for a haulage company about 35 years ago I used to bank the artics up ready for loading to get the drivers away a bit early (they had horrendous pre- tacho drive patterns).   I shouldn't have been doing it as I had no HGV and obviously f-all insurance.   I managed quite well really until somebody suspected and suggested nobody without necessary licence should be doing such things.   Thinking this might stand me in good stead when I bought a small caravan a few years ago I was totally stunned at how uncontrollable the little prick is in reverse.   Admittedly, I knew nothing about manual trailer brakes and the need to over-clip the sliding part of the coupling bar but even after that I still had LOADs of trouble.   Like most things in life that I have blagged my way through I found a good hour in an empty car park watching what happens with every move of the wheel was far better than trying to listen to anybody else or study a 1964 AA towing guide....Power steering probably NOT helpful with this particular little bastard, I should think....

[mat_the_cat]

Mine is an LSE, meaning that it is longer and heavier than the Discoveries and normal-wheelbase Range Rovers of the time, plus it has (working) air suspension which self-levels, so it shouldn't feel like driving an accelerating speedboat.  And it's automatic, which might save some clutch-slippage.  

 

LWB will help - I actually find the van better stability-wise for towing than the Disco which I believe is down to the longer wheelbase as weights will be similar. It's a little* bit down on power with 95 rather than 180 bhp so the Disco is quicker, although there's less in it than than you'd think. We tow a horse around quite a bit, which can be a bit disconcerting when you can hear him stamping his feet in the trailer as you're going along! Cars are a lot less trouble

[forddeliveryboy]

Sorry. But a Range Rover is a fine tow vehicle.

 

You want a long wheelbase and either 4x4 or rear wheel drive.

Caravan's are a whole different story and some of the new ones even come with abs and stability controls.

 

A lwb RR may be ok, but the one I used was as totally inept as you'd expect over 40mph with the steering, short wheelbase and massive overhang. But it was good setting off up a slippery slipway with the heavy trailer hitched, which everyone else was doing with two wheel drive and a winch or two wheel drive and a towrope.

 

I can see how a relatively lightwight BX on a trailer isn't going to trouble an old RR much because of the relative masses. Given their low weight and tiny engine, a 2cv is an amazingly good towcar - better than a RR I'd suggest, weight for weight. Front wheel drive can be ok for towing if the engine and box are well forwards (so inline works well if the engine's at the front) and the overhang isn't too much. I've dragged trailers up slippery slopes with fwd when BMWs and Sierras have been slithering backwards.

 

Bloody hell, caravans with ABS and stability controls? Wotteva next?

[Jon]

I have the stupid post '97 licence, so took my Class C when I wanted to be able to drive 7.5t lorries for work, as I've mentioned before (it cost the same for a C or C1 licence - the only difference was the size of lorry driven on test). Still can't tow a trailer more than 750kg though, as that's a separate test and I couldn't justify the extra expense of C+E at the time just for that. However, in NZ a car licence allows you to drive up to 6 tonnes (I think) and tow most things behind a car, hence me doing this when I moved house:

 

 

Must say it was rather an arse-puckering experience, having never towed before. Having a long draw bar helped for reversing - much more so than our silly little trailer we have for picking up firewood at taking stuff to the tip. Thankfully, we only moved 20 miles down the road and most of the road is flat, as the Nissan diesel engine was struggling a bit. Despite the looks, it wasn't too heavy a load but I'd rather have something with a bit more grunt for towing. STUNO's Audi 200 quattro turbo faired very well towing a twin axle trailer 400km or so, half of the journey loaded with a scrap 205 GTi and spares. A very enjoyable towing experience in comparison.

 

What I'd like to know is, could I get away with towing stuff back in the UK, using my NZ licence?

[DS20]

We tow a horse around quite a bit, which can be a bit disconcerting when you can hear him stamping his feet in the trailer as you're going along! Cars are a lot less trouble

 

 

Now I'm wondering whether the Saab or the Citroen is more likely to stamp its wheels while being towed    My money's on the Saab, because it would rather be driven, while the DS doesn't mind settling itself for a nice sit-down and cup of tea.  

 

 

The fee for the B+E test (it's over a hundred quid) is steep, though.  I'm going to have to save up for that one.  

[danthecapriman]

I had to do the B+E trailer test, for work. They paid for mine so I have no idea about the cost!

 

It's pretty easy really, there's a bit about hitching up properly (doing each bit in correct order) and reversing into a coned bay, with a yellow line at the back. Cross the line or hit a cone and you fail. I think you can have a max of two 'shunts' to get it right though, the third being a fail. Then it's just a bit of driving. Good observations and mirror use are essential and try to make it obvious to the examiner that you are looking in your mirrors! You may have to pull up and do hill starts.

I was told by the examiner after I passed that most people who fail only fail because their actual driving skills aren't up to standard or they have picked up bad habits! For example you can tow perfectly but they will still fail you for not indicating properly or poor vehicle control etc. push pull steering is expected aswell so no one arm, palming or crossing your arms either! I would just practice a bit in the meantime by driving around in the same manner as you would when doing your driving test just so your ready.

I did my trailer test at rush hour in the middle of Reading and still passed so it's not hard as long as you prepare for it.

I tow 2 ton oil tankers almost everyday at work behind a Sprinter, so I prefer big rwd vans for towing but a big car or 4x4 is good enough. Also long trailers are easier to tow than short ones and heavy, preferably twin axle trailers are easier than light single axle ones aswell, IMHO. When reversing it pays to go as slow as possible and be accurate with the steering and turning, too fast or poor steering control results in the trailer going too far round and you will probably end up failing for it.

 

Hope that helps!

[forddeliveryboy]

but they will still fail you ... push pull steering is expected as well so no one arm, palming or crossing your arms either!

 

 

That's plain daft, even the police accepted years ago that the push-pull thing was out of the 1950s so didn't insist.

[Taff]

"sniggers"

 

[danthecapriman]

That's plain daft, even the police accepted years ago that the push-pull thing was out of the 1950s so didn't insist.

It is daft! I kept doing it, I had an hours towing lesson before the test just to get me up to speed with what I was going to have to do and kept getting bollocked by the instructor for doing it!

The examiner I had was a nasty little git aswell, it was almost any excuse however minor, that he could get you on or fail you for he'd do it. I ended up having an argument with him in the end as he was very rude and putting me off during the test! Just what you need on a test!! Still, I passed inspite of him.

 

It is of course possible that the company I did it with were just a bad company and maybe they aren't all like it.

[warninglight]

I'm just in the process of booking my B+E this week, as it's something I'll use time and time again!

 

The rules about trailers etc are quite stringent so it works out best to use an instructor's setup in most cases, so I'll be doing a 2 day course, with the test on the afternoon of day 2. Including the test fee it's looking at being about £400 all in which is ok. Given the fuel the Disco would use to pull the only box trailer I know of (an Ifor 3.5T job) to get to and from Carlisle two days on the trot...

 

I had enquired about it a while back as with the Disco I'm limited with what I can pull, without the licence. With the licence, the world's my oyster at 3500kg though!

 

So yesterday I accidentally bought this on eBay, so picked it up in Newark. Nice bit of kit for what I paid, should be useful once I've done the test, won't be carrying anything on it til then!

 

[DS20]

I had to do the B+E trailer test, for work. They paid for mine so I have no idea about the cost!

 

It's pretty easy really, there's a bit about hitching up properly (doing each bit in correct order) and reversing into a coned bay, with a yellow line at the back. Cross the line or hit a cone and you fail. I think you can have a max of two 'shunts' to get it right though, the third being a fail. Then it's just a bit of driving. Good observations and mirror use are essential and try to make it obvious to the examiner that you are looking in your mirrors! You may have to pull up and do hill starts.

I was told by the examiner after I passed that most people who fail only fail because their actual driving skills aren't up to standard or they have picked up bad habits! For example you can tow perfectly but they will still fail you for not indicating properly or poor vehicle control etc. push pull steering is expected aswell so no one arm, palming or crossing your arms either! I would just practice a bit in the meantime by driving around in the same manner as you would when doing your driving test just so your ready.

I did my trailer test at rush hour in the middle of Reading and still passed so it's not hard as long as you prepare for it.

I tow 2 ton oil tankers almost everyday at work behind a Sprinter, so I prefer big rwd vans for towing but a big car or 4x4 is good enough. Also long trailers are easier to tow than short ones and heavy, preferably twin axle trailers are easier than light single axle ones aswell, IMHO. When reversing it pays to go as slow as possible and be accurate with the steering and turning, too fast or poor steering control results in the trailer going too far round and you will probably end up failing for it.

 

Hope that helps!

 

 

Thanks - that's v helpful - appreciated  I'll do some good driving practice to prepare.  

[DS20]

I'm just in the process of booking my B+E this week, as it's something I'll use time and time again!

 

The rules about trailers etc are quite stringent so it works out best to use an instructor's setup in most cases, so I'll be doing a 2 day course, with the test on the afternoon of day 2. Including the test fee it's looking at being about £400 all in which is ok. Given the fuel the Disco would use to pull the only box trailer I know of (an Ifor 3.5T job) to get to and from Carlisle two days on the trot...

 

I had enquired about it a while back as with the Disco I'm limited with what I can pull, without the licence. With the licence, the world's my oyster at 3500kg though!

 

So yesterday I accidentally bought this on eBay, so picked it up in Newark. Nice bit of kit for what I paid, should be useful once I've done the test, won't be carrying anything on it til then!

 

 

 

Yes, having read the rules about what the trailer can be / can't be, I think I'll be using an instructor's car and trailer; aside from anything else, I don't feel like buying 800kg of aggregate, or whatever it is!  

 

Good luck with the test, and let me know what it's like - I'm not looking forward to being examined again, as I thought that the driving test fifteen years ago would be the end of all that 

[scruff]

A lwb RR may be ok, but the one I used was as totally inept as you'd expect over 40mph with the steering, short wheelbase and massive overhang. But it was good setting off up a slippery slipway with the heavy trailer hitched, which everyone else was doing with two wheel drive and a winch or two wheel drive and a towrope.

 

I can see how a relatively lightwight BX on a trailer isn't going to trouble an old RR much because of the relative masses. Given their low weight and tiny engine, a 2cv is an amazingly good towcar - better than a RR I'd suggest, weight for weight. Front wheel drive can be ok for towing if the engine and box are well forwards (so inline works well if the engine's at the front) and the overhang isn't too much. I've dragged trailers up slippery slopes with fwd when BMWs and Sierras have been slithering backwards.

 

 

How odd then that I have managed many miles with mini diggers and small tractors on the back of various old RRs without any trouble. 

Not tried an LSE but a air-sprung V8 auto 3.9 was the best of the bunch. Cruise came in useful to keep the thing at legal speed.

My old (SWB) RR is a great tow wagon albeit a bit underpowered being the 300Tdi. A friend of mine has got a old 4.2 Land Cruiser and that's the cat's whiskers. 

[JohnDeere]

I have B+E having passed my test in 1988, but had never towed anything till a few weeks ago. I then borrowed my neighbour's twin-axle Ifor Williams and loaded it up with a couple of tonnes of house clearance behind the Disco.

 

All in all, I found it dead simple, and even enjoyed some tricky reversing - the very first one from a busy main road back into a steep driveway worked first time, thankfully.

 

I'd heard that twin axles are easier to reverse than singles, which is probably true. And I found that I couldn't do it in the mirrors, I had to twist round and look (not forgetting to make sure I wasn't about to smack something with the front of the car as it swings round)

[forddeliveryboy]

scruff, I suppose all things are relative. And not odd in the slightest that you've towed many things, I could have driven thousands of miles with the boat and trailer behind that RR perfectly safely, I'd have just continued to make the allowances needed.

 

I love old Range Rovers, but not suited to towing that load (lack of stability) much over 40mph which on a longish journey was a pain.

[DS20]

So I had a towing lesson today. All was well on the road, and I got on okay at the trailer-reverse-manoeuvre, so I'm going to go for the test soon. When I say soon, I mean December, as there's a 2-month wait for B+E tests here in Grimsby.

 

The trailer was a small braked twin axle job, with 600kg of water in it. The tow car was a Å koda Fabia with a diesel engine; it did ok, but was inclined to wheelspin, not helped by the ferociously wet weather. The brakes were good, though. Still nervous about spending an hour in the car with an examiner...

[Matt]

[...] is heavy enough (ie a 4x4). I wouldn't bother with a smallish estate with an engine smaller than 2l.

 

So you are saying that it might be foolhardy for me to tow an 800 kg load on a braked trailer with my 993cc, 3 cylinder Suzuki Swift? Suzuki says that's the maximum but if it wouldn't work... Well shoot.

[PiperCub]

IIRC from my HGV1 almost exactly 20 years ago, my instructor - an ex-REME sgt major tank transporter type - told me the best trailers were the ones that the pivot point (on either the 5th wheel or a towbar) was furthest away from the centre of the trailer axles as they are slow to react to any steering changes so the driver has greater control. That's the reason that the little 350-600kg box trailers are such a whore to reverse but big trailers aren't.

[stephen01]

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

For example:
a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

 

I passed in 2002 and have been towing a caravan for the last two years as I'm well under the limits..