The Doctor, SOGA and fit for purpose

[cheguava]

This subject does seem to yank people's chain. Rather than mess up other threads, I thought it deserved one of its own.

 

In the Ebay tat thread, someone asked if there was case law. As far as I can see, and I'm happy to be corrected, there is little, and most of it goes back a long way. The most relevant case I saw pre-dated SOGa, being Crowther v Shannon Motor Co. A summary of the case can be found here.

 

http://www.legalmax.info/members2/sog/crowther.htm

 

Basically, the plaintiff bought a 8 year old Jag from the Doctor's previous incarnation, and then did 2000+ miles in 3 weeks before the engine called time and joined the choir invisibule. The judge ruled that as the plaintiff had explained the use he planned to make of the car (I guess aka high mileage hack) that the seller was liable for the engine going pop. The garage was probably not helped by a former owner turning up to support the claimant, saying he'd bought the Jag from the same delers a year ago and chopped it back in as the engine was shot.

 

As far as I can see, SOGA and fit for purpose hinges on purpose. The doctor's ad for the Golf seems to state that he sees it as a show queen. He does statethat it may be of interest to a retro type as a daily, but he's been perfectly straight as far as I can see about its previous use. He points out the state of the tyres, which seems fair given that a show queen owner may not be bothered, but a daily driver should be.

 

This is the nub as far as I see it. If you go to a dealer and want a reliable daily, the dealer is on notice of your needs, as in Crowther v Shannon Motors. If you're bidding on ebay, the dealer isn't, unless you've messaged him asking if the vehicle would be a good daily runabout. I reckon the doctor would probably decline to offer such an endorsement. Obviously, if they say "this car is barely run in" they may be leaving themselves open, which might give sellers of Toyotas and Mercs pause for thought these days. But if you're bidding on a car that's advertised as being recently woken from a deep slumber, how would you be surprised by issues arising from that, unless you had been assured that the purpose you proposed for the car was compatable with your use?

 

I'm interested to know what other people think, which is why I've posted this, plus it avoids clogging other, better threads.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

[Vin]

I just read the first post and then saw what Mr B posted. I've only just stopped laughing!!! I had to get up and walk about

 

As for the Doc. Who cares??(NOT ME) He's just trying to make coin selling old cars. Good luck to him. I'm pretty sure he will be well versed in all the necessary legal niceties.

[fiatdaft]

DOKTOR IS MA HEERO.

[pbottomley]

The Doctor is a profiteering nothing more nothing less.

 

Everyone lies but some more open than others.

 

To some people classic cars are a hobby and money shouldn't rule the heart, to others that's all a car is, cash in the back pocket. The two parties will never agree.

 

Personally I see some cars as a cheap hobby and no way do I want prices going up off the back of some overpriced polished to shit heap, sold to some chinless wonder who couldn't spot shill bidding if he was slapped on the arse by Madam Shill in some back room brothel, with a Keyboard connected to the Doctors ebay auctions.

[fiatdaft]

What is wrong with making a profit?

[dollywobbler]

There seems to be an utter hatred of making a profit. I've never understood this. If you're selling cars as fully restored when they're nothing more than bodged spray-jobs, you deserve all the vitriol you get. If you buy a car, clean it up, deal with an endless stream of muppets (seriously, have people tried selling actual cars? It's horrible!) and managed to make money then fair play to you. If you do it using fairly typical rose-tinted salesman prose, then that's up to you. I'm not going to knock it. He's found something that works. Fair play to him.

[Hertz]

I don't have a problem at all with people making a few quid on motors. The Doctor does it well and presents them superbly so good luck to him. However I think trying to make £2k out of a base model VW Golf is a bit greedy. If you check out his feedback it doesn't look like he sells a great deal. Maybe if he was less greedy he would sell more?

[fiatdaft]

Nobody is forced to pay his prices or buy off him.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

He auctions his stuff! How can that be greedy? Folk bid on it through choice!

[Alexg]

How can the The Doctor be greedy when he starts his auctions from nothing. He puts the effort in and he gets his reward, I admire his work.

[fiatdaft]

If anybody says they wouldn't do what he does if they were in the same position,they are either liars or idiots !

[Hertz]

Yes it's an auction but he has a reserve so he has a price he wants for it and I quote from the ebay auction:

 

The highest bidder will most certainly recognise this car for exactly what it is- a sure-fire appreciating classic. The final price should no doubt reflect this and you might expect that to be over £4,000.

[fiatdaft]

Don't bid then.

[Hertz]

Hang on a minute....

 

However if you will be pleasantly surprised to learn that the reserve does not start with a four or even a three but, incredibly for such a low mileage 3 door Golf in outstanding original condition, with a two.

 

Top bloke that Doctor I never doubted him

[Mr_Bo11ox]

He can put whatever reserve he likes on though can't he, if its unrealistically high it just won't sell.

[fiatdaft]

And he still starts them at 99p,and you still don't have to bid,great that eh! Hertz do you work for a company?

[Hertz]

And he still starts them at 99p,and you still don't have to bid,great that eh! Hertz do you work for a company?

 

I dropped a clanger (read my previous post on page 1).

 

I am in employment yes, not Hertz though that's a nickname.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Hang on a minute....

 

However if you will be pleasantly surprised to learn that the reserve does not start with a four or even a three but, incredibly for such a low mileage 3 door Golf in outstanding original condition, with a two.

 

Top bloke that Doctor I never doubted him

 

To be fair to him, two hundred quid sounds about right for a povo spec mk2 Golf with no history and in need of some new tyres.

[fiatdaft]

So Hertz does the company you work not make a profit?

[Cavcraft]

I don't have a problem at all with people making a few quid on motors. The Doctor does it well and presents them superbly so good luck to him. However I think trying to make £2k out of a base model VW Golf is a bit greedy. If you check out his feedback it doesn't look like he sells a great deal. Maybe if he was less greedy he would sell more?

 

 

If that were the case then surely he'd have realised that and lowered the prices? He won't be in business long even if he was 'greedy' (he's not, they're auction type listings) so he must be doing something right.

 

 

Why on earth is there so much hatred for the fella?

[Pete-M]

Anyone on here could do what the Doc does, but it's too much work for most of us. Finding old car, cleaning old car, sorting paint 'faults' on old car, getting photos of old car on suspiciously sunny day, advertising old car with tons of flowery prose and history.

 

Lets face it, he makes the chod he's flogging look about as good as it can. That ain't easy or we'd all do it. He had a lovely Mk1 Capri a couple of years ago that I still wish I'd bought.

 

I say good luck to him. Fuck SOGA, only cunts think it's reasonable to use that on the kind of stuff the Doc flogs.

[fiatdaft]

As somebody mentioned before,its jealousy.

[dollywobbler]

As somebody mentioned before,its jealousy.

 

That and the assumption that he's getting money for doing sod all. Which clearly isn't the case. These cars need finding and collecting after all. I wonder how many times the Doc has gone to look at a 'mint' car to find it an absolute wob-fest. I've spoken to many traders who have wasted an insane amount of time looking at 'good' cars, only to have to walk away. If it was that bloody easy, we'd all be doing it!

[Alexg]

So what's suggested, that he cap his profit margin? How does that happen and why should it happen when people want to bid on the car? How do you even know what profit he has made? Please also consider the hidden costs involved in selling a used car. It's not - buy for one price, sell for another and you make the difference.

 

Firstly of all THE DOCTORS cars are immaculate and detailed within an inch of their lives. Work of that quality doesn't come cheap.

 

Secondly there will undoubtably need some reconditioning/repair of bodywork or interior trim and mechanical issues that will take time and money.

 

Thirdly, being a motor dealer he'll have to pay VAT on his profit margin. That's the difference between what he bought it for and what he sold it for, NOT what it owes him after prepping and what he sold it for. (I'm sure this is correct, maybe FIATDAFT can correct me on this)

 

What about his time, whats that worth? Preparing the adverts, photographing the car. And then there is advertising fees etc etc etc..... yawn.

[Albert Ross]

That was me that mentioned jealousy. I work for a company that turns a profit. That's why I still have a job. That's called good business. Let's be honest though..... he couldn't sell ANYTHING if people didn't want it or have the money to spend.....

[fiatdaft]

Exactly, just like any other profit making company.

[Richard]

Fuck SOGA, only cunts think it's reasonable to use that on the kind of stuff the Doc flogs.

 

I must be a cunt then. Personally I prefer to buy cheap and deal with any issues but if I did pay top money for something, especially on the strength of a glowing description, I wouldn't expect to have any nasty surprises.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

I say good luck to him. Fuck SOGA, only cunts think it's reasonable to use that on the kind of stuff the Doc flogs.

 

Most judges must be cunts then....Hm, on second thoughts, I might agree with that.

 

 

I must be a cunt then. Personally I prefer to buy cheap and deal with any issues but if I did pay top money for something, especially on the strength of a glowing description, I wouldn't expect to have any nasty surprises.

 

Exactly. The condition/fitness for purpose needs to correspond to the price paid. Although the courts don't even take that into account (in the process wiping out small traders who'd like to sell 500-quid Vectras).

[Wilko220]

I don't have any experience of or much knowledge about the doctor so don't really feel qualified to spout an opinion on it. However, from what I can see, it's not the fact he makes a profit that has upset people, but the fact that he allegedly puts untrue information in his adverts and engages in shill bidding. I've no idea if those suggestions are true but, if they are, then the complaints seem legitimate (regardless of whether those complaining work for a company).