**Resolved ** Any Sale of Goods Act Experts?

[gtd2000]

Cheers for that

[gtd2000]

Another owner bites the dust - a '56 plate 30,000 miler.

 

Turns out there is a KIA UK (I Like KIA) Facebook page

[gtd2000]

Kia Motors UK

We are trying to find the most travelled Kia in the UK. Why not let us know your Kia model, the year of registration and current mileage if you think you are a contender? We wonder if anyone is approaching a milestone mileage mark….?

 

Gavin Davidson ‎

2004 KIA Picanto 32,000 miles and the crankshaft pulley bolt failed....not sure if that's a record or not but most of them failed around the same mileage (or less - some at 2,500km) from the list I've garnered to date.

[gtd2000]

Well here is the latest back from KIA UK...completely avoiding answering nearly all points.

 

 

[ashmicro]

SHABBY. Send it to What Car?

[gtd2000]

SHABBY. Send it to What Car?

 

Iv'e just submitted the info to Watchdog but happy to send it to all and sundry now

[pompei]

Daily Telegraph's Honest John has had success in the past dealing with problems like this.

 

I'd reply to Kia telling them politely that unless they wish to fullly reconsider within say 14 days you'll have no alternative but to give the matter much wider publicity.

[gtd2000]

Daily Telegraph's Honest John has had success in the past dealing with problems like this.

 

I'd reply to Kia telling them politely that unless they wish to fullly reconsider within say 14 days you'll have no alternative but to give the matter much wider publicity.

 

I can certainly do that - not a lot to lose really.

 

I've had over 18,000 views of the thread at the kiaowners forum, so a fair number of people are reading about it - a simple google search of "kia picanto crankshaft pulley bolt" will bring the thread up to the top of the list too!

[gtd2000]

Does anybody here actually feel I'm in the wrong here at all?

 

I'm pretty sure the sale of goods act covers this scenario completely?

[pompei]

I think it's quite normal to have doubts about seeing complaints through - but it's not as though you've got a shredded windscreen wiper blade - this is a serious issue which the company is trying to avoid. I reckon you are absolutely right to pursue this. Good luck

[Parky]

I had a Picanto between 2005 and 2008 and I knew about this problem as well as the fires caused by mobile phone chargers being too strong for the pissy cigarette lighter wiring. Two dealers I spoke to knew nothing of these (of course). I didnt have the problems myself, in fact I thought the Picanto was a cracking motor for what it cost but I suppose was lucky enough to punt it on before any issues occured.

 

Hyundai used the same engine - are there any cases of similar failures in the Getz or i10 which I assume used similar motors? If not why would they fail in a Kia as I'm sure they are all built in the same Hyundai factory?

[gtd2000]

I had a Picanto between 2005 and 2008 and I knew about this problem as well as the fires caused by mobile phone chargers being too strong for the pissy cigarette lighter wiring. Two dealers I spoke to knew nothing of these (of course). I didnt have the problems myself, in fact I thought the Picanto was a cracking motor for what it cost but I suppose was lucky enough to punt it on before any issues occured.

 

Hyundai used the same engine - are there any cases of similar failures in the Getz or i10 which I assume used similar motors? If not why would they fail in a Kia as I'm sure they are all built in the same Hyundai factory?

 

Yes it's ironic, I also still think the Picanto is a cracking little car - I'm just not impressed at all by KIA UK and how they are handling this at the end of the day.

 

I'm not sure why the problem is so common using this engine in the Picanto - I think it's the Atoz (Atos?) that uses the same motor and I've not heard anything about them failing so far?

 

A Dutch consumer TV program brought KIA NL on to the show and they said they would pay for the repairs in full.

 

It's not as if I'm asking for a free repair for something that's a one off or even caused by my mother....it's a KIA problem... end of story.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Is that supposed to be a fucking formal letter? I would tell them to please write again after they've graduated from secondary school.

[gtd2000]

Is that supposed to be a fucking formal letter? I would tell them to please write again after they've graduated from secondary school.

 

Yes I can see the funny side of it as well. It's been written to the expected KIA UK standards....

[nottinghamphil]

Does anybody here actually feel I'm in the wrong here at all?

 

I'm pretty sure the sale of goods act covers this scenario completely?

 

I'm sorry to say mate but YES, I do.

The car is now seven years old, you had the damn thing serviced only TWICE at the dealers, they ( in my opinion ) seemed to have been very reasonable towards the vehicle and to you.

Its an old car, move on with your life FFS, life is too short to worry about a repair worth a few quid or some questionable service from the dealer/manufacturer.

Don't even start about the principle of it all... forget it and move on.

[Rod/b]

I have to say, i'm with NottsPhil on this. It's a seven year old car, hasn't been serviced to schedule and isn't inside the range of models identified as having an issue. You're lucky they paid for the parts.

[gtd2000]

Does anybody here actually feel I'm in the wrong here at all?

 

I'm pretty sure the sale of goods act covers this scenario completely?

 

I'm sorry to say mate but YES, I do.

The car is now seven years old, you had the damn thing serviced only TWICE at the dealers, they ( in my opinion ) seemed to have been very reasonable towards the vehicle and to you.

Its an old car, move on with your life FFS, life is too short to worry about a repair worth a few quid or some questionable service from the dealer/manufacturer.

Don't even start about the principle of it all... forget it and move on.

 

Twice at KIA and five times independently....

 

The car has only covered 32,000 miles.

 

I'm not losing any sleep over the matter whatsoever.

[gtd2000]

I have to say, i'm with NottsPhil on this. It's a seven year old car, hasn't been serviced to schedule and isn't inside the range of models identified as having an issue. You're lucky they paid for the parts.

 

The range of models affected is no longer considered correct even by KIA.

 

The two of you have jumped to a conclusion that isn't valid I'm afraid.

[254575]

surely the mileage on the car is irrelevant? its still 7 years old. there are 30+ year old cars out there with similar miles.

 

 

how much money do you want from them?

[gtd2000]

surely the mileage on the car is irrelevant? its still 7 years old. there are 30+ year old cars out there with similar miles.

 

 

how much money do you want from them?

 

It's only £660 quid.

 

KIA spent £11 million for UK advertising alone in 2010....

 

I'm happy to give them something negative back for that - not to mention all of the others that are affected.

 

This is all about durability and the SoGA - is 7 years the expected lifetime of a car?

 

KIA now provide a 7 year warranty in the UK and a 10 year warranty in the USA - so I'd say it was reasonable to expect the "lifetime" to be between 7 and 10 years.

 

The car wasn't 7 years old at the time of the fault.

[gtd2000]

As you can see it's not an unknown problem:

 

gtd2000

 

2004 1.1LX Auto @ 32,000 miles

 

Parts to be provided free by KIA but owner to pay the cost of repairs - KIA originally denied car could be affected by crankshaft pulley bolt problem.

 

boy_racer996

 

2004 1.1LX, 32,000 Miles

 

"I have made Kia very aware of my issue but they dont want to know. Kia also denied my car was affected"

Bartbox

 

2006 LX 26000km.

 

"Kia are not interested in a goodwill claim even though the mileage is only 26000km.

 

I did my own repair but eventually after a scene with KIA Korea I finally managed to get this problem sorted on a goodwill repair. It a factory fault. Inaccurate machining of the front crankshaft timing sprocket and is assembled with too much play. Over time it wears both the crank and sprocket. The timing pick up then has too much play and confuses the ECU thus causing the misfire, poor performance and high fuel consumption. It can only be diagnosed by partially stripping and removing the front crank pulley. If the car has a misfire on acceleration you hear a dull rumble from the engine on idle I suggest you look for this problem"

 

 

Telstar

 

2005

 

"I contacted the local Kia dealer in the UK. The guy knew all about it. He said if a Kia main dealer diagnosed it as a bottom engine fault, he would have to say that, that is what it is. He checked my chassis number & he said it had not had a recall. He said Kia would only contribute to the problem if it had been serviced by Kia dealers & the contribution was to supply the crankshaft leaving the owner with a bill of around £1400-00. I was quoted€2000-00 over here so I guess it is with no Kia help. If it is a Kia problem that they fitted a wrong bolt & this is now down to me, it will be the last Kia I ever own."

 

"I sent an email & a letter to the MD of Kia UK & explained my problem. Bottom line as the car was now in Spain could they either supply me with the parts needed to repair it & I would pay a mechanic in Spain to do the labour, or can they contact the Spanish Kia on my behalf & ask if they would either repair the fault free or at least supply me with the parts again to get a mechanic to repair it. Here is the reply.

 

"Thank you for your email to Mr Michael Cole, our managing director. I am responding on behalf of Mr Cole.

I'm sorry to learn about the problems that you've had with your Kia Picanto.

We expect the highest level of qualityand service throughout our brand. Unfortunately however, parts can fail at some point, which is why we support our customers with a warranty on all cars. Once the warranty for your car expires, we are no longer obliged to pay for any repairs.

We do support our customers wherever possible with the cost of repairs, as we want you to be happy with your car. Unfortunately we can only consider UK registered cars for a goodwill contribution. Therefore, if your car was first registered in Spain, I would advise you to contact Kia Motors Spain to see if they can consider your car for goodwill.

Thank you for contacting us and I hope this helps."

Yours sincerely

Vijay Ghera

Customer Service

 

Yeah! That helps!!!

 

Never will I ever buy a Kia car again.

 

Hope that helps."

 

Stablecat

04 Kia Picanto SE

 

“I just bought an 04 Kia Picanto SE. Had it for 3 days and realised it wasn't right. No power, difficult pulling away from lights & going up hill, jerky throttle. It went into a local garage under waranty (Car Care Plan through Motor House the garage I bought it from) and had the crankshaft bolt & damaged parts replaced. Now Drives great - but the garage says that it will happen again as there is nothing to stop the bold coming loose again. also they have said that when this fault occurs it creates wear on the crankshaft & next time if the wear is worse the crankshaft itself will need replacing and I will have a bill for around £2500?

They replaced the bolt in accordance with instructions and parts from Kia so are they right about this problem being likely to come back?â€Â

“Thanks, my car is now in with Kia & they have confirmed that the faulty bolt caused wear to the crankshaft itself so the new improved bolt is not stable and the only cure is a new crankshaft - fortunately it looks like it is covered on my waranty from MotorHouse.

The bolt replacement itself has not been enough to permanently rectify the problem but Kia say it would have been enough if the bolt had been replaced before the problems occured. That's fine, but they did not recall the car here (UK) - just a service campaign for inspection and replacement if affected. My car (SE Model) was not included in the campaign, so it was never checked.â€Â

 

Daab

 

Picanto's were recalled for a modification on the crankshaft. The crankshaft bolt on my Picanto was replaced by a longer as well. Nonetheless the crankshaft broke January 2008, just after guarantee. KIA first tried to let me pay for almost the whole job.

This crankshaft problem occurs a lot in Holland, and I found 11 pages of crankshaft ""Kurbelwelle"" misery on the German KIA site.

Last week a guy in Holland posted: In his family alone, 2 out of the 3 Picanto's had broken crankshafts. A friends' broke as well. 1 just after guarantee!.

I found a successful erniedaisy who needed assistance from a lawyer, but got - rigtheously- finally a free repair.

Dutch consumerTV "VARA/KASSA"noticed the frequency of this problem and KIA's attitude. KIA NL are now paying for the full costs of repairs.â€Â

 

Flanagc6

“Hi - My 2005 Picanto just cut out today due to...(surprise, surprise) a broken crankshaft. I have a FSH including a service at start of Feb which never identified any problems.â€Â

 

Lauragoodwin

2005 @ 2500 miles

“I have an 05 car and have just been told the crank shaft has broken ( £3000) I have only done 2200 miles, but have only had 2 services. I am going to fight that there is NO WAY this should be happening. I never got news of a recall.â€Â

 

Motorama

33,000 miles

I have a 33000 mile Picanto two weeks out of an annual service prior to which we reported a lack of power. The result was that no faults were found and that we should monitor situation. After the service symptoms became severe and car was returned. Now we are informed that 'it's a broken crankshaft.' Which would cost us £900!! What aroused my suspicions was that the receptionist asked whether we had ever recieved a 'recall' and then promptly dropped the subject. At present we await a reply from Kia via agents in Cornwall.â€Â

 

Bemused of Dudley“I had this same problem of lack of power caused by a defective crankcase bolt and I was quoted a price of around £2000 by my local KIA agent for repairs. They appeared all too aware of the problem. I would suggest that anyone owning a Picanto who encounters this problem takes up their problem with KIA customer services.â€Â

 

andy57

 

1.1LX auto. 23000 miles.

 

“Parts to be provided free by KIA but owner to pay the cost of repairs at £1500.â€Â

 

LaurenceN

 

“My daughter's car has now suffered from the same problem as all you guys. We have had the car serviced every year since buying it in 2004 and have never heard a word about the problem - certainly no product recall, not even a mention from the Kia dealer who serviced it. Kia are now being totally unhelpful about the cost of fixing it, and I foresee a long battle ahead, which I am determined to win, especially as the problem surfaced when my daughter was some 250 miles from home and we have now additionally had to suffer recovery costs. I hope this won't come to a court case, but just in case it does, I would be interested to hear from anyone else who has lost out financially: please contact me at (edited) and I will keep you updated about progress.â€Â

 

Carolyn

2006 @ 30,000 Miles

 

“We have a snapped pulley bolt on a 56 picanto 30000 miles!!â€Â

 

Picantomo

 

2006 1.1LX Auto @ 110,000 Miles

 

Picanto 1.1 auto on an 06 plate with 110,000 miles on the clock. Symptoms are surges in power when driving (car just seems to pick up then slow down again). Car started making a noise like a branch was stuck under the car. Got to work and popped the bonnet and it was like a cam bearing was failing. On closer inspection I could see the crank bolt head moving around. Got under the car and the bolt was fully out. Only being held in place by the air con hose bracket!

 

Katieskia

 

2004 @ 19,600 Miles

 

“Loss of power daughters kia picanto December 2004, bought the car in june 12000 miles on the clock, car was running ok. last month we noticed

the loss in power 19600 miles on the clock.car was serviced at a kia dealership in july 2007. services after that were carried out at another garage regularly.

I called kia customer Services.The CSR checked if the car had they modification done to it and found it had not. They advised me that I should take it to a kia dealership and have it inspected, and was told it would cost me around £80 to put it on a test rig if the fault was found not to be the crankshaft pulley/bolt. The fault was the crankshaft and the dealer told me it would need a short engine £3000 and kia would not pay for it because it was not a factory recall. I told him it was a goodwill campaign He said KIA won't pay for it because it's out of warranty and told me that I would have to phone KIA. I then became the middleman between KIA csr dept. and the dealership, the dealership would send faxes service record and invoices and Kia CSR dept would not get the Faxes. Finally The service record and invoice was received and KIA technical Dept. looked at the case and decided the car would have to be stripped down again and pictures taken, Then tech. dept decided not to replace the short engine but the crankshaft and sundry parts,Then the same Fax Problem between dealership and KIA. I was eventually told they would supply the parts and fitted at my cost of £844 10 hours labour.â€Â

[Pete-M]

It's a Kia. People only buy them for the warranty. Once out of warranty Kia ain't gonna go near the thing with a shitty stick no matter how much you shout about it.

 

This is why out of warranty Kias are worthless. People will put up with a shit car if it comes with a pain-free warranty which only means a visit to the dealer once a year for a service and "free" MOT. They're automotive Amstrads sold by the Currys of the car world. Should have been called the "Saisho Picanto" really. If you blow the warranty by going elsewhere there's no way they're going to rebuild your engine for free when the thing is seven years old.

 

No Kia dealer is going to volunteer to do a free crank replacement on a car they've only seen twice in seven years. Kia dealerships are all about flogging you the car cheap (and making a few hundred quid in the process), getting a couple of hundred quid a year in servicing from you and flogging you a new one when yours is four or five years old. They know the cars are shit, but if they get the servicing work and repeat custom it's worth keeping you happy. They don't mind taking five year old full history cars in p/x if they know the car and can say "We've looked after this from new", but a seven year old one that hasn't been back? They'd offer £700 for it as p/x against a new one (in reality £150 as you're blowing any discount) and shove it over the bridge. Once it's over the bridge it ain't gonna haunt 'em.

 

Weigh it in and forget about it.

[Craig the Princess]

This is all about durability and the SoGA - is 7 years the expected lifetime of a car?

 

Yes, about that.

 

What is the expected life of a washing machine, if my one breaks four years down the line (and I don't have an extened warrenty) they will tell me to go away.

 

I think once that warrenty has expired you are lucky to get the parts paid for, imagine if Rover needed to fix every K-Series headgasket in the first 10 years of a car's life.

 

EDIT: But it's worth a go, good luck.

[Pete-M]

imagine if Rover needed to fix every K-Series headgasket in the first 10 years of a car's life.

 

If the K-series HGF issue had only happened out of warranty Rover would still be with us....

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

It's a Kia. People only buy them for the warranty. Once out of warranty Kia ain't gonna go near the thing with a shitty stick no matter how much you shout about it.

 

This is why out of warranty Kias are worthless. People will put up with a shit car if it comes with a pain-free warranty which only means a visit to the dealer once a year for a service and "free" MOT. They're automotive Amstrads sold by the Currys of the car world. Should have been called the "Saisho Picanto" really. If you blow the warranty by going elsewhere there's no way they're going to rebuild your engine for free when the thing is seven years old.

 

No Kia dealer is going to volunteer to do a free crank replacement on a car they've only seen twice in seven years. Kia dealerships are all about flogging you the car cheap (and making a few hundred quid in the process), getting a couple of hundred quid a year in servicing from you and flogging you a new one when yours is four or five years old. They know the cars are shit, but if they get the servicing work and repeat custom it's worth keeping you happy. They don't mind taking five year old full history cars in p/x if they know the car and can say "We've looked after this from new", but a seven year old one that hasn't been back? They'd offer £700 for it as p/x against a new one (in reality £150 as you're blowing any discount) and shove it over the bridge. Once it's over the bridge it ain't gonna haunt 'em.

 

Weigh it in and forget about it.

 

Harsh!

 

However, it's a design fault and it clearly doesn't matter a toss who has put the oil in the sump since 2004. As a point of interest, BMW are still entertaining good will/warranty repairs on E46 diff mounts on cars up to 10 years old - FOC. They know they messed up and they've manned up. No, they won't entertain a 12 year old 200'000 mile snotter with 9 owners - but this is a low mileage car which is probably still in mint condition. Something about 'block exemption' and not having to take your car to an official dealer is ringing bells...

 

It's a tough one, and I can see both points of view.

[Pete-M]

Something about 'block exemption' and not having to take your car to an official dealer is ringing bells..

 

Aye, if it was under seven years old there would probably be something to go on there. As it is, the thing is out of warranty and they've got no obligation to sort it as it hasn't been dealer serviced by them for years. Ooooops. If they'd looked after it, they may have sorted it under goodwill.

 

I don't mean to be harsh, but Kia is a bargain basement manufacturer. They build cheap shit and chuck a decent warranty at it. You wouldn't take an Tesco own brand radio back after the batteries ran out, you probably wouldn't take one back after a year even if it had a two year 'free' warranty and you'd only listened to the shipping forecast once a week on it. It's cheap shit, when it broke, you'd throw it away and buy another disposable one or something a bit better that will last longer.

[gtd2000]

I think the key point to remember here is that I'm not expecting KIA to pay for every repair that is required for the "lifestime" of the car.

 

If the alternator burned out after the warranty expired then yes, that's just tough shit really.

 

The principal that I am pursuing here is that it is an inherant factory defect that has caused the problem with the crankshaft and pulley.

 

The defect should have been identified by KIA as part of a recall and the parts modified to suit the purpose.

 

The original KIA solution involved a change of pulley and a re-designed bolt - which in turn caused the crankshaft to actually break. KIA also supplied complete short motors which resulted in crankshaft pulley bolt failure once again. This is why they now change the whole crankshaft assembly (and associated gubbins) with a modified design.

 

There are people out there who had their cars serviced exclusively by KIA dealers and they have not had any better outcome than my experience.

[gtd2000]

Something about 'block exemption' and not having to take your car to an official dealer is ringing bells..

 

Aye, if it was under seven years old there would probably be something to go on there.

 

 

The car wasn't 7 years old at the time of discovering the problem.

[nottinghamphil]

 

There are people out there who had their cars serviced exclusively by KIA dealers and they have not had any better outcome than my experience.

 

^^^^ Your own statement above should make you realise what a futile and pointless quest you have embarked upon,...you ask for opinions then just constantly strive to justify your misguided ideas of who is 'at fault' here.

This forum is made up of opinions, we may not all agree but everyone is entitled to theirs.

If you are so confident why not just take them to court ( at your expense ), and when ( if ) you win the case just claim for the cost of repairs and your court costs...

Your're not willing to do that ? Hmmm, I thought so...

[garbaldy]

Personally i would just wipe my hands of the whole thing and think myself lucky i got the parts paid for, vote with your feet next time by giveing kia a wide berth.

life is far to short to spend it batting your head of a brick wall