Funny how times change.

[Pete-M]

It's a shame when otherwise decent cars when new turn out to be utter turds once they reach about five years old.

 

Working in car hire in the 90s there were loads of new cars about that were all a big step forwards from their predecessors. Yet they seem ancient now.

 

I remember the Mk2 Transit being replaced and the Mk3 seeming mega refined and nice to drive with really precise steering. The headlights seemed to be insanely bright on them too. I used to get wound up by being 'blinded' by Mk3 Transit lights in a similar way to El Watanabe now with his hatred of Range Rover Sport Xenons.

 

The Mk3 Fiesta. I drove an F reg, five door, 1.1 LX the day they came out. It felt so nippy, quiet and nimble compared to the Mk2. Felt expensive too, with it's electric windows and central locking.

 

The Primera just blew the Bluebird away when it came to handling, in fact, other than the lack of front seat travel the Primera Mk1 was bloody great. I like driving the quick early ones like the GT job. But the driving position is just wrong for my legs to be comfy.

 

The Mondeo was a large leap forward from the SIerra when it came to being a good family car for Mr and Mrs Average, or a superb repmobile for someone who'd had the equivalent rep spec Sierra. Early Mondeos handled great for a FWD saloon, and were a lot less likely to go sideways into a ditch than a Sierra. Now they're unloved and dying out. Just like the Cortina did. A good early 2.0 Ghia X Saloon would be worth finding and keeping for a while methinks. Sierras are more fun, but they're nowhere near as refined as a good early Mondeo (although the early 2.0 Mondeo had an insanely short final drive)

 

The Mk1 Laguna. Drove well, handled well, rode well. Went quite well when they eventually got the 16v lump. The flaps for the stereo and aircon looked well cool.

 

The Avensis Mk1. So quiet and painless to drive they felt like the class above the Carina E. Great on fuel, too.

 

The Megane. Made the R19 feel ancient and cheap. Handled ok too.

 

The Mk3 Cavalier mid-life facelift. When they all seemed to get ABS. All of a sudden they rode and handled better. Shame the earlier ones were quicker.

 

The Fiat Bravo / Marea HGT. Felt cheap when new, knocked suspension drop links out for fun from day one. Sounded great, crap on fuel, not super quick but amusing anyway. 'orrible gearshift. Nasty dash. Crap radio / tape. Still had charm, especially a Bravo HGT in that mad orangey metallic.

 

The Alfa 156. Unbelievably good in comparison to the 155 when new. These were properly rated, until they blew the bottom end. Which they all did. The most ragged hire cars I've ever known. Everyone who rented one caned the tits off it. I still love the seats in the Recaro trim ones.

 

The Peugeot 306. Looked a lot better than the 309, went better, a lot quieter, and set a new handling benchmark for its group. A 1.4 306 when you were used to the 309 1.4 was a huge difference. Heavier, but still quick through the twisty bits. The 306 D-Turbo was the first proper diesel quick hatch I can think of. Nothing got close. 309s are bloody good handling, so that was a clever trick.

 

The midlife 405 facelift - the one when they got A/C standard on most of 'em. Ace cars. Still feel about 1/2 ton lighter than 406s.

 

Until the Focus replaced the Escort. Bloody hell. That was a moment. I remember looking at the Focus and thinking 'Don't like that, it looks weird', then driving one and being properly impressed. S reg 1.8 LX it was. With no passenger airbag. After that the Mk589638906904 Escort just felt like a relic from the '70s. I wouldn't mind, but the Mk6 Escort was far better than the earlier FWD jobs.

 

Now they're all just tat. Other than the Focus, but even they seem dated now.

 

Weird isn't it? Nothing much has caught my eye since then. Can't think of many cars I'll be looking at in 8 years and thinking "I always wanted one of those".

[warren t claim]

I think you'll find the Jag XF will be a massive improvement over the S Type. Admittedly they're hardly the bread and butter stuff your post was about though.

[R9UKE]

I enjoyed reading that. So true. There was the Citroen Xantia as well. Felt a world away from the BX. I gotta disagree about the Mondeo Saloon though. I always thought it was ugly as sin, the 5 door hatch captures the proper curvy styling of the car. But yes, a 2.0i Ghia X 5 door needs put away in a garage somewhere. I'm trying my best to find a worthy contender

[Pete-M]

My reason for picking a Mondeo saloon is down to two things. The parcel shelves often rattled on the early hatches, and the optional subwoofer in the Saloon was mounted under the rear shelf - and sounded great. The optional sub for the hatch took up half the boot space and didn't sound that good.

 

Sad.

[John F]

The Mk3 Cavalier mid-life facelift. When they all seemed to get ABS. All of a sudden they rode and handled better. Shame the earlier ones were quicker.

 

I saw an indicated 135+ mph on my standard 1994 Cav SRi on more than one occasion

[Des]

I remember being very impressed by the new Renault 5. Does anyone else remember when the Mondeos first appeared they were regularly breaking down.

I agree that car design has grown stagnant, I think it's down to that decade of senseless borrowing we've just endured, car makers have mostly been on the ball and quickly realised that while offerings of improved quality and innovation are attractive to traditional punters, not so good at selling credit where it's all about the bling, this prompted a big change in design to satiate a new market of brand hungry proles who happily hocked their future for some fleeting make believe contentment, and they'd keep coming back for more.

[tonedepear]

It doesn't help that they all have to have the same shape front, near enough, so when toss-bag piss heads run out in front of you and you hit them they get cossetted by your big pillowy bulbous front end instead of cut in half by your Reliant SS1. Bloody NCAP has a lot to answer for.

[ChinaTom]

I had this feeling after I test drove the current 5 series. It may be technically advanced and light years ahead of the E39 in that respect, but whereas I immediately fell in love with the E39 as soon as I sat in it, I just can't find that feeling for the current range. Sure, the economy is better, the performance is better, the handling (if you spend a year's disposable income on options) is better; but now wood has been replaced with aluminium, click click swear, click click turn click swear click give up has replaced the pressing of a nice little button and technology has been integrated into the overall system and functionality has been really compromised. I may as well be sitting in a CNC equipped horizontal planer.

 

Laptop / Iphone user experiences, to me, just can't be imposed on a car. A car should be engaging, and anyway, when a button breaks after 160k miles, a new one can slot in and away you go. There are so many more functional bottlenecks on the current crop of cars and in 10 years time, I cannot see MMI, Comand, and whatever the BMW interface is called lasting the distance. There are a number of little facilities and functions that become useful and routine if your car has them - take trip computer for example. Totally unnecessary, but nice to have and if you have one, I bet you use it to track the mpg over journeys, or see how many more miles you can squeeze out after the fuel light comes on. I had all of these things on my E39 and they all worked when I bought the car at 140k miles. They worked when I sold it at 202k. There was a button on the dash and a button on the indicator stalk that allowed you to reset a reading and track another journey. Now, it seems you have to arrive 5 minutes earlier at the vehicle and even if you know how many clicks and turns you need, it still takes precision and patience to do, and probably won't be worth the effort. My pal's A6 has the MMI thing and after only 13 months, the control wheel thingy has started to play up and the mouse cursor thingy toddles off to the top left corner of the screen all by itself and he needs the dexterity of a brain surgeon to get it to where he wants it. He won't fork out to replace this part as he knows it will be very expensive and therefore doesn't bother any more. By the time these motors hit most of our normal budgets, I don't think many of these facilities will be functional and therefore we'll be disappointed.

 

I guess similar could be said when rolling down windows and leaning across to pop up a lock became push buttons, but they still had modular hardware that can be diagnosed and replaced fairly easily if required after 10 years or so. In 10 years time, I reckon >50% of the current car's functionality would be wiped out by one minor problem (and it won't be a fuse). And it will cost >half the value of the car to put right. If it were mechanical, we'd forgive it probably, but as it is the "nice to have" things, we will just hate it and come to the conclusion that the E39's were far superior to the ones that replaced it.

 

I read all these brochures and they shout TECHNOLOGY and INTERFACE at me, and all I want is a couple of buttons you can make friends with. I can't make friends with an "interface". Basically when these cars are 3rd and 4th hand, they will all be world's of expensive pain and we won't love them in the same way as we resent the constant crashing of a 6 year old laptop, or 45 minute battery life of a 4 year old phone.

 

Only Volvos and non-Comand specced Merc's really do it for me in 10 years time.

[Pete-M]

I know what you're saying, Tom.

 

I know I always harp on about the new Skoda Superb, but they're pretty much devoid of all the stuff you don't like. Proper switches, etc.

 

Also, a friend of mine bought an 06 Audi A6 last week with MMI. That still works fine at 120k. Does take bloody forever to set it up, which seems a bit silly, as does having satnav without the map screen.

 

I like gadgets in cars. When they work. Having said that, I'm one of those people who'll find out how to fix stuff that's broken.

[cort16]

The E39 was a massive step forward and became the bench mark for cars in lower sectors. All the dampened jesus handles, soft touch dash, quality plastics that ended up feeding their way into Golfs then later on into Focuses etc etc.

I never really took to the E60. I still rather have a late 530d Sport than an E60 and i still have mass wants for an E39 M5 although I think that may cause my own personal financial melt down.

[dieselnutjob]

I want to have a go in an XM whilst it's still possible.

 

Someone took me for a spin an the 200bhp V6 diesel C6 and it was pretty impressive. They are insanely cheap on the used market (for what they are) and pretty rare as well.

The numbers are already really low

http://howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=citroen+c6

 

406 coupes are probably as cheap as they ever will be

 

the 508 is the first new Peugeot I have seen for years that I like the look of at all

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Sure, the economy is better, the performance is better, the handling (if you spend a year's disposable income on options) is better

 

However, the ride quality probably is completely shit (I've not driven the 5-series, but it's something that has definitely happened to most contemporary cars).

[Negative Creep]

I just hate the way everything is marketed as a lifestyle option these days. That's why I like the old car brochures, which actually talk about things like specification and show photos of the cars. Now you aren't even allowed to mention top speed or performance and it will be full of people attending fashion shows and going windsurfing with their ultra hip friends (one of whom will be black obviously, we're not racists). Everyone seems to be falling over themselves to sell their soul to the WAG and Ocean Finance market - BMW, Mercedes, Bentley Aston Martin - now even Maserati are going to release an SUV.

 

Very few interesting cars these days as no one will take the risk on anything sporty or petrol. Not to mention something that isn't black, grey Recession White or Resale Silver

[eddyramrod]

Car design did have a way of advancing, it's true. I remember my driving instructor telling me he was getting a new Fiesta (this was 1977) and when it came, it was unrecognisable as a Ford, considering I'd been getting used to a Mk2 Escort 1.1. That's how big an advance the Fiesta was.

It didn't always work. My Mk5 Cortina was a huge improvement on the Sierra, and I've had that in Mk1 and Mk2 styles; all GL spec with 2.0 engines (including the Tina).

Cars now are designed to be pedestrian-friendly and wind-cheating, which makes them all the same shape, near enough; and people only ever buy them in black or grey, making them even harder to tell apart. The other day I was following a Honda FR-V and thought it was a Mercedes B-class, and I know what cars look like! Step inside and it's the size of the manual that tells you what you're going to be driving (in five years when you've passed the required PhD). Don't get me wrong, I like labour-saving as much as anyone else does, but the manufacturers are soaring up into the clouds now. Proper buttons and switches, that do one thing simply and well, can NOT be replaced by a multi-function cooker knob and a little telly you can't see. You're driving, you need less distraction, not more. Indicator stalks that stay where you put them and cancel visibly and automatically; lights and wipers on other switches or stalks. The Fiat 3-stalk set works fine for me, as do the Metro/Maestro/Montego stalks. Perfectly acceptable, why mess with stuff?

 

It's all about fashion now, but: so it was 50 years ago in Detroit, and look what they built. No two makes looked alike, and styles changed annually. Yes, they had labour-savers, but they were sensible choices like electric windows, and they were made relatively simple so they could be fixed. How many modern gadget-barges will be with us in 50 years? Not one. Electronics will have killed them all off, provided they survived lack of road-attention from the drivers.

 

And Luxo: yes, 5-series ride quality is shit, I've done it. Couldn't wait to get the fecker home and jump back in my 1980 Buick!

[cort16]

I guess part of liking old cars is even up to 25 years ago they hadn't quite figured out how to do it righ so everything was different. As said above they've pretty much decided how everything works now so all cars are very similiar inside so the only way they can be different is to come up with daft ideas like electric handbrakes and self park systems.

If you jump in a make of car from 1970-1985 they'll all be different. I used to love it when folk got in my e21 as they could never figure out how to get out as the handles are hidden in the arm rests (same as the sd1). The citroens are totally batshit especially those switch indicators on the early BX's.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I just hate the way everything is marketed as a lifestyle option these days. That's why I like the old car brochures, which actually talk about things like specification and show photos of the cars. Now you aren't even allowed to mention top speed or performance and it will be full of people attending fashion shows and going windsurfing with their ultra hip friends (one of whom will be black obviously, we're not racists). Everyone seems to be falling over themselves to sell their soul to the WAG and Ocean Finance market - BMW, Mercedes, Bentley Aston Martin - now even Maserati are going to release an SUV.

 

Very few interesting cars these days as no one will take the risk on anything sporty or petrol. Not to mention something that isn't black, grey Recession White or Resale Silver

 

Bang on the Money.

 

These days, all the German stuff is pretty much the same and aiming for the same market - the real world difference between a new 5 Series (which is a stonkingly good car) and an E Class Merc isn't much really.

 

30 years ago, to own a BMW or a Merc was a sign of People Of Means, not that you raped yourself on finance on the next rung up from a Golf. Ford and Vauxhall man knew his place, and cars held their value for much longer.

I saw two Bentley GT things today. I couldn't give a shit and didn't give a second glance because Bentley has become another flashy New Money 'look at me' accessory. Owners of most of those things just wouldn't 'get' a 1970 Corniche MPW Hardtop.

 

It's not just cars, it's everything else in this 'spend yourself happy' society we live in now. Just buy the troublesome brats another PS2 game to keep them quiet for a minute whilst you get another tattoo done to 'express your individuality, innit'.

 

Cars are never the same when revisted. I drove a really nice Alfasud a while back and it's not the fast little go kart I remember. That's why that when given the opportunity to drive a mint restored Mark 1 Mexico around 15 years ago, my Dad didn't. He wanted to remember his 1973 car from when it was new, because it would inevitably be a bit shit 20+ years on.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

If you jump in a make of car from 1970-1985 they'll all be different.

 

Indeed. Saab 95, Austin 1300, HC Viva, Citroen GS. Can you think of four cars more utterly different in every way?

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

It's not so much a question of engineering ("how everything works") as opposed to marketing and outsourcing. Carmakers nowadays are so obsessed with selling a lifestyle that they have stopped doing a lot (most?) of the engineering. The main electrics are all engineered by the likes of Bosch, while consolidation, joint ventures, and licensing mean that an engine can go into dozens of different models across different, even rival, makes. Then you have a couple of components that need know-how which has to be licensed from a tiny number of specialist vendors (e.g. direct-shit gearboxes), and a handful of software manufacturers copying each other on interfaeces, and, in the end, car factories only produce painted bodies and stick the various outsourced parts (that they share with all other cars) on them.

[Fat_Pirate]

Ia handful of software manufacturers copying each other on interfaeces

 

I don't know if that was a deliberate typo, but it's an excellent word and I've added it to my vocabulary (I work with network interfaeces a lot). Thank you

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

I can confirm it was deliberate.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

It's not so much a question of engineering ("how everything works") as opposed to marketing and outsourcing. Carmakers nowadays are so obsessed with selling a lifestyle that they have stopped doing a lot (most?) of the engineering. The main electrics are all engineered by the likes of Bosch, while consolidation, joint ventures, and licensing mean that an engine can go into dozens of different models across different, even rival, makes. Then you have a couple of components that need know-how which has to be licensed from a tiny number of specialist vendors (e.g. direct-shit gearboxes), and a handful of software manufacturers copying each other on interfaeces, and, in the end, car factories only produce painted bodies and stick the various outsourced parts (that they share with all other cars) on them.

 

And the sad thing is, the ignorant customer doesn't give a shit - monthly payments, impressing the neighbours and gadgets are the key points of importance. That's why Fiat are going to build a Yank engined Maserati as well as a Chrysler US built Maser SUV - because they can get away with it. They'll destroy the brand, but there is a rich seam of idiots with too much money to tap into.

 

Profit is more reasonable than justice apparently.

[ChinaTom]

Fiat are going to build a Yank engined Maserati as well as a Chrysler US built Maser SUV - because they can get away with it. They'll destroy the brand

 

Really? Are they really going to do that? Isn't that the path Lancia should (or could) follow? A standard Quattroporte is my absolute dream car that if I could afford, I would buy. I'd take one over a RR Ghost, a Ferrari FF4 or even a Tagora 2.3DT. I quite regularly waste an hour on the infuriatingly slow flash-based configurator painting it dark green, comparing marron seat stitching to beige, and genuinely not being able to decide whether the dash-top is better in black or brown. Part of why I like them is because they stick to what they have done since the 70's - big saloons, sports cars, and am secretly hoping that a smaller model comes out to keep the spirit of the Shamal and Bi-turbo alive. If they make an SUV, it will all be spoiled.

[Negative Creep]

Fiat are going to build a Yank engined Maserati as well as a Chrysler US built Maser SUV - because they can get away with it. They'll destroy the brand

 

Really? Are they really going to do that? Isn't that the path Lancia should (or could) follow? A standard Quattroporte is my absolute dream car that if I could afford, I would buy. I'd take one over a RR Ghost, a Ferrari FF4 or even a Tagora 2.3DT. I quite regularly waste an hour on the infuriatingly slow flash-based configurator painting it dark green, comparing marron seat stitching to beige, and genuinely not being able to decide whether the dash-top is better in black or brown. Part of why I like them is because they stick to what they have done since the 70's - big saloons, sports cars, and am secretly hoping that a smaller model comes out to keep the spirit of the Shamal and Bi-turbo alive. If they make an SUV, it will all be spoiled.

 

 

'Fraid so

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default ... ryId=24321

[chaseracer]

...The midlife 405 facelift - the one when they got A/C standard on most of 'em...

And what fun that was, on the N/A diesel! Hit the snowflake button and feel it lose ten horses of the mere 68 it started with...

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Fiat are going to build a Yank engined Maserati as well as a Chrysler US built Maser SUV - because they can get away with it. They'll destroy the brand

 

Really? Are they really going to do that? Isn't that the path Lancia should (or could) follow? A standard Quattroporte is my absolute dream car that if I could afford, I would buy. I'd take one over a RR Ghost, a Ferrari FF4 or even a Tagora 2.3DT. I quite regularly waste an hour on the infuriatingly slow flash-based configurator painting it dark green, comparing marron seat stitching to beige, and genuinely not being able to decide whether the dash-top is better in black or brown. Part of why I like them is because they stick to what they have done since the 70's - big saloons, sports cars, and am secretly hoping that a smaller model comes out to keep the spirit of the Shamal and Bi-turbo alive. If they make an SUV, it will all be spoiled.

 

 

'Fraid so

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default ... ryId=24321

 

Meanwhile, Fiat have rebadged the abortion that is the Lancia Delta as a Chrysler Delta - on sale in the UK now. You might see one in the next 6 months.

[warren t claim]

I'd be more inclined to buy one if they left the Lancia badge on.

 

 

Am I alone in having that opinion?

[carlo]

...The midlife 405 facelift - the one when they got A/C standard on most of 'em...

And what fun that was, on the N/A diesel! Hit the snowflake button and feel it lose ten horses of the mere 68 it started with...

 

True, but it was a clever marketing tactic, putting something on as standard that people actually wanted. We sold bucketloads of them, no doubt helped by the fact that it was an excellent car too.

[wuvvum]

Meanwhile, Fiat have rebadged the abortion that is the Lancia Delta as a Chrysler Delta - on sale in the UK now. You might see one in the next 6 months.

Someone round here has a white Delta - I've seen it several times now. It's actually not a bad looking car by modern standards, but the stupid chrome grille looks completely out of place and horribly tacky.

[wuvvum]

I drove a really nice Alfasud a while back and it's not the fast little go kart I remember.

Really? Both of my 'Suds were just that - OK, maybe the 1186cc 5M wasn't fast as such but it was certainly quicker than a 1.2-litre Stilo which would be its nearest modernish equivalent, and the 1.5 Ti would leave a lot of modern hot hatches behind, even in a straight line. I'd probably agree about the Mk1 Escort though - I like them for what they are (current stupid prices aside), but I can't imagine even a restored Mexico being a great drive by modern standards.

[warren t claim]

I drove a really nice Alfasud a while back and it's not the fast little go kart I remember.

Really? Both of my 'Suds were just that - OK, maybe the 1186cc 5M wasn't fast as such but it was certainly quicker than a 1.2-litre Stilo which would be its nearest modernish equivalent, and the 1.5 Ti would leave a lot of modern hot hatches behind, even in a straight line. I'd probably agree about the Mk1 Escort though - I like them for what they are (current stupid prices aside), but I can't imagine even a restored Mexico being a great drive by modern standards.

I think a restored Mexico would be a hoot to drive by any standards, a tuned example would be like driving a Caterham MPV.