Just to confirm....Employment law Query

[outlaw118]

Ok, hope someone can assist with this; I'm fairly sure I'm right......

 

My contracted hours, on a flexitime-type basis are 37 per week, split into "normal" (8-5 mon-fri) and "option" (5-8, and 9-1saturdays)

Recently, the head of "doing nothing and attempting to justify your salary" has been number crunching, and come up with the suggestion that as the success rate of our customer visits are higher between 4 & 8 pm, "option" hours should be increased to 10 per week. Thats not a problem for 60% of my colleagues, they're on a different contract to me which dictates this split already.

Also, currently, in line with the flexitime type arrangements, we are currently allowed, if you're "ahead" on hours/ in credit you can take a flexi-day off twice in a four week period. She's proposing that this is changed so we can only take one day per four weeks. This doesn't really bother me, as overtime is being offered at the moment (single time, booo) so I tend to take that instead.

When challenged by my immediate supervisor, she had the attitude of "They'll have to do what they're told, they're on good money, if they don't like it, there's 3 million people out there blah blah...."

I reckon, that if the department decides to bring this in, and I refuse to comply, thats a disciplary route, eventually leading to being sacked.

If they bring this in, and I do comply, that means I've been buttfucked, and it sets a precedent for any other piece of shit contract changes she wants to make.

I believe the term is "constructive dismissal?"

 

Your views would be appreciated.

[Guest]

Refer back to your contract, make up a load of reasons why this will ruin your life (because there's a load of specific things you do between those hours) and generally kick up a stink. Whilst doing this, look for another job. Optional: Steal things.

 

Having said that, a contract is absolutely useless nowadays - my contract was revised to give me a pay cut on the say so of a union I'm not even in, so what's the point of signing one? Might as well just turn up and do as I'm told, the bit of paper doesn't matter.

[outlaw118]

Agreed Mr H, but really it's a bit harsh - my main concern is that this is just the thin end of the wedge, and more draconian measures are likely to be introduced willy nilly if this one goes in unopposed.

 

And, yes, I have lots of envelopes.

[Mr Lobster]

As Hirst says, refer to your contract. It sounds like they can enforce a change to hours / shift patterns though so it wouldn't neccesarily by constructive dismissal unless they make a lot of changes intended to make life so difficult that you have no option other than to leave. I don't think this one change is enough for that though? It might be that this is the start of other changes, then again it might not. I guess you'd need to see what happens really.

 

I'm no expert but I did spend a bit of time doing this sort of thing but its a very complex area.

 

Most contracts are so loosely worded though that the employer can do virtually what they want. My last employer decided that they wanted me to work from a different branch - 75 miles away and as the contract was so loosely worded there was nothing I could do about it. Well, there was - I spent two years doing as little as I could possibly manage before telling them where to poke it. Which was nice.

[scooters]

ok,

 

I am an HR consultant and until very recently was Head of recruitment at a large FMCG.

 

Here is what you must do:

 

I need to know

1/ how big is the company

2/ do you have a professional HR department?

3/ how long have you worked with the company?

 

secondly you need to start writing EVERYTHING down from now - all conversations relating to your employment/contract etc with your boss and any representitives from the company - the best way to do this is to hand write your recollection of conversations the moment you get home, sign them, date them, then put them in an envelope and post them to yourself recorded delivery the next day - when the envelope arrives - don't open it - file it. The reason why you do this is to date stamp the document with a postal frank - this means no one can accuse you of doctoring your events later - you do this from now on

 

for the meetings and converstaions that have already happened you need to write an affadavit - just write a document that starts with:

 

"What follows is my record of conversations between myself and x of x between blah and blah ...." and end it with"

 

"I sumit the above as being an accurate record."

 

then you take the paper to a commissioner of oaths - most soliciters are such, and for about a fiver they will take your oath that this is the truth and seal ans sign the document for you. This document is now admissable in court - it is important that you do this asap - the closer the record is to the time it happened then the more effective it is as ammo.

 

If they have a professional HR department then the HR manager will reel in the individual and start formal contract change negociation with you. If tey have an HR professional and are tyrying to stiff you then they will keep records to back up their side of any claim - you must start to do the same.

 

email me-

 

[email protected]

 

rich

[dieselnutjob]

would you be in a position to do the 10 hours option if they increased your pay?

If so then maybe you look more reasonable if you say I'll give you what you want if you give me something in return(i.e. a pay rise)

Presumably you have a different contract because you've been there longer and so you are more experienced etc.

If they don't want to negotiate and just want to impose then the relationship might degrade to the point that you don't want to be there anyway.

In that case you can look for a job quickly and as part of the contract "negotiation" offer yourself for voluntary redundancy which means that you leave on good terms.

At that point if they don't want to negotiate anything then at least you have made them look unreasonable because you put some positive suggestions on the table and they didn't accept any of them.

Will you find another job easily? In many jobs you get more money by moving anyway.

[outlaw118]

Thanks chaps - will take a note of all that.

Scooters, I'm sending you a pm.

All this is a "suggestion" on her part at the moment, and the info was "leaked" at a meeting yesterday where my immediate boss didn't lock his pc when he went for a shite. We opened an interesting looking e-mail, and thats what we found.

I am looking for something else, have registered with a few on-line agencies and applied for stuff.

DNJ - it's not the actual extra 2 option hours thats a problem really, its a PITA, but the newer members of staff seem to cope.

The other thing that I forgot to mention as I was a bit steamed up, is the change for me and other "older" staff members is that we travel to our first "job" in our own time, and home form our last job in the same way. Currently my working day starts the minute I get in the van, thus gaining me, perhaps 15-20 minutes am and pm, maybe 40mins per day. Whilst I am fully aware that this is probably unusual, the fact of the matter is, it's a perk, which has been part of my contract since I started in October 2000!

Perhaps I should hire Hirst to drive the Galant through her office window.

Then do wheelspins on the grass.

[DCLane]

If that's been the case (and Scooter will confirm/deny this) since Oct 2000, then it's 'custom and practice' to allow it to happen.

 

As such, they can't just change the process.

[myglaren]

In addition to the excellent advice offered by scooters I suggest that you make an audio recording of any conversations and meetings that you attend.

Your handwritten record made after the fact may be called into question on the grounds of accurate recollection, an audio record would back up your statements.

Most mp3 players will have a recording facility and the file can be dragged onto your computer, a CD made and included with the handwritten event log.

 

There may be a legal aspect to this - you may have to advise anyone attending that you are making an audio record of the proceedings to aid your memory. This may apply only to telephone conversations though, not a lawyer/legal expert.

[scooters]

In addition to the excellent advice offered by scooters I suggest that you make an audio recording of any conversations and meetings that you attend.

Your handwritten record made after the fact may be called into question on the grounds of accurate recollection, an audio record would back up your statements.

Most mp3 players will have a recording facility and the file can be dragged onto your computer, a CD made and included with the handwritten event log.

 

There may be a legal aspect to this - you may have to advise anyone attending that you are making an audio record of the proceedings to aid your memory. This may apply only to telephone conversations though, not a lawyer/legal expert.

 

outlaw - pm sent to you

 

myglaren, oddly enough recorded media doesn't necessarily work in your favour in this sort of situation - here's why:

 

hand written notes, dated and sealed and sworn on have an element of the picked upon underdog - also, they can be completed after meetings without alerting the employer that you are keeping records - most will assume that you are not and will go blundering into a tribunal, should it come to that, with their version of events, usually tilted in their favour. Notes show the tribunal the dignity of the individual versus the company and usually win the sympathy of the adjudicator. Recorded media does not necessarily carry more weight in lawe than written recollection, it will also have to be sworn in as above and dated. Also, you are right in saying that you will need toget the 3rd party's agreement to record conversations. Some HR depts do this as a matter of course and give you a compy of the tape for your records. However, this is very rare, most simply don't have the reources to do it.

 

I would keep my cards close to my chest and use the written route - don't forget that this might not actually come to anything and there is no point in showing the hornets you are about to poke their nest - just keep the records and if you have to use them then you have them - if not then even better -0 the last thing anyone wants is a tribunal - stress and expense all round

[Gompo]

Good luck Outlaw.

 

I dont have a contract (atleast not that I have read+signed) and neither do most of my colleagues as far as I know. Thankfully our work tends to suit this sort of arrangement to some extent.

[myglaren]

@scooters, Fair enough, take your point.

Pesonally I favour a recording as my memory is so crap I forget what people say to me almost before they have said it, so I am painfully aware of the danger of relying on my recollection of events.

Your points are all valid - as one would hope given your position.