A frames, and VOSA

[whitevanman]

true, but 99.9% of cars are over 750kg

 

There's a lot that would be less than 750 (particularly older ones) if you removed engine/box/interior/anything that doesn't help it roll along the ground.

 

problem is that the 750kg rule doesn't refer to the mass of the trailer, rather its MGW (max gross weight) which means a 750kg unbraked trailer is rarely bigger than a 4x5 box..

 

 

I thought the wording in the rule book stated, " a trailer over 750Kg"

[Lankytim]

Who says what the MGW of an engineless shell is anyway?

[scaryoldcortina]

whitevanman... it does, but as I said it's referring to maximum weight, not unloaded weight. It's a C&U reg.

 

lankytim.. According to the VOSA officer I was talking to about it, if you could easily carry more than 750kg (including the weight of the trailer) it needs brakes, and most car shells have plenty room inside.

[Lankytim]

Trailers need to have a plate on them that states the max gross weight it can carry, although many don't. If its missing then surely its just the inspectors opinion what it should be able to carry as opposed to definate proof?

 

The maestro van trailer I have isn't braked so I never carry enough weight in it to put it over 750KG, although I have no doubt it could carry much more. Maybe I should crack out the dyno-tape and stick MAX GROSS WEIGHT 750KG on the A frame or something!

[Mr_Bo11ox]

put MAX GROSS WEIGHT 1,000,000 TONNES just to be sure!! Let VOSA prove it cannot carry a cruise liner.

[pogweasel]

Aye, both my shitty little trailers have "VIN"-type tags with the gross weight on them.

250kgs.

Obviously I regularly stuff them with about half a ton of junk to haul down the tip like.

[Lankytim]

put MAX GROSS WEIGHT 1,000,000 TONNES just to be sure!! Let VOSA prove it cannot carry a cruise liner.

 

Noo, you'd be 999,999 tonnes odd overweight then! I think the fine is £100 a ton or so.

[seth]

most car shells have plenty room inside.

 

That would depend on whether the shell has a floor to it

[scaryoldcortina]

All well and good, but the cards are stacked against you. A frames are only legal for towing a taxed, tested and insured car as a means of recovery to a safe place, even then the train weight of the towing vehicle must not be exceeded. If you plead that your untaxed shell is a trailer, they get you on no trailer brakes instead because it is obviously not a sub 750kg MGW trailer.

 

"half a car" trailers fall foul of this too. You might be able to argue that half a reliant robin or mini can't carry more than 200kg (trailer mass+payload=MGW) but you are not likely to persuade anyone that half a van is only getting loaded with feathers and it's impossible to put anything else in there. Moral: get some brakes, pretend you made it in the 90's.

[Cavcraft]

Isn't some of the problem the gross train weight, i.e you could get lifted for exceeding it? To be honest I can't get my head round this train weight business but it seems to be applicable to how much the car doing the towing can legally 'trailer' and if it's over a certain weight you're looking at tachographs and shit? Obviously that would more likely apply to towing with a Transit but I know someone who had a close shave with a Pajero and a car trailer.

[scaryoldcortina]

Isn't some of the problem the gross train weight, i.e you could get lifted for exceeding it? To be honest I can't get my head round this train weight business but it seems to be applicable to how much the car doing the towing can legally 'trailer' and if it's over a certain weight you're looking at tachographs and shit? Obviously that would more likely apply to towing with a Transit but I know someone who had a close shave with a Pajero and a car trailer.

 

Gross train weight is easy - it's stamped on the car vin plate. Loaded car+trailer must not exceed this figure. VOSA have been known to escort all sorts of towing combos to the nearest weighbridge to check them too.

 

Edit - a quick example of how it works.

 

MY LT35 recovery has a kerb weight of 2100kg, a MGW of 3500kg and a train weight of 5100kg.

 

This means that I can carry up to 1400kg on the truck, and a 1600kg trailer, or a 3000kg trailer with an empty truck.

[Pete-M]

When I towed the Escort from Germany to Czech I had to hire a trailer. My initial plan was to use a friends Carlton Estate (Ok, it's an Omega, but you know what I mean), turned up at the hire place with the docs for the Carlton and the bloke said "That doesn't weigh over 1500kg, therefore you can't tow a car trailer with it. Sorry", and that was that.

 

I returned half an hour later with a UK registered, LWB, semi-high top Transit. The V5C confused him, and he knew that Transits are more than 1500Kg, so job done.

 

I would have a-framed the Escort, but you can't a-frame in Germany.

[M'coli]

When I towed the Escort from Germany to Czech I had to hire a trailer. My initial plan was to use a friends Carlton Estate (Ok, it's an Omega, but you know what I mean), turned up at the hire place with the docs for the Carlton and the bloke said "That doesn't weigh over 1500kg, therefore you can't tow a car trailer with it. Sorry", and that was that.

 

Mk6 Astra FTW...

[Richard]

Gross train weight is easy - it's stamped on the car vin plate. Loaded car+trailer must not exceed this figure. VOSA have been known to escort all sorts of towing combos to the nearest weighbridge to check them too.

 

Edit - a quick example of how it works.

 

MY LT35 recovery has a kerb weight of 2100kg, a MGW of 3500kg and a train weight of 5100kg.

 

This means that I can carry up to 1400kg on the truck, and a 1600kg trailer, or a 3000kg trailer with an empty truck.

 

It's not quite that simple for people who passed their test after 1997. They don't automatically get "+E" on their licence and are restricted to a train weight of 3500kg (in practice this is 4250kg because 750kg trailers don't count).

 

There's also the matter of whether you go by plated weight or current weight. I keep meaning to send identical questions to DVLA, VOSA and various police forces to see how many different answers I get.

[dieselnutjob]

When I towed the Escort from Germany to Czech I had to hire a trailer. My initial plan was to use a friends Carlton Estate (Ok, it's an Omega, but you know what I mean), turned up at the hire place with the docs for the Carlton and the bloke said "That doesn't weigh over 1500kg, therefore you can't tow a car trailer with it. Sorry", and that was that.

 

I think that was his law rather than UK law. Probably he's worried about not getting his trailer back in one piece which is his right I suppose.

Years and years ago I saw a transit on a four wheel trailer being towed by.... a Fiesta. It was on the A120 at Takeley. Must have been at least 15 years ago.

[Pete-M]

When I towed the Escort from Germany to Czech I had to hire a trailer. My initial plan was to use a friends Carlton Estate (Ok, it's an Omega, but you know what I mean), turned up at the hire place with the docs for the Carlton and the bloke said "That doesn't weigh over 1500kg, therefore you can't tow a car trailer with it. Sorry", and that was that.

 

I think that was his law rather than UK law.

 

It was in Czech, so it wasn't UK law. He was saying something about German law being similar, and as I was going to be doing 400 miles across Germany with his trailer, he wasn't taking any chances.

[Vin]

I've never A-framed or dollied anything myself, as I've always been able to get access to a trailer of some kind when needed, through my mate.

 

It is interesting that the rules and regulations are so confusing. There used to be a regular poster in the Panda section of the Fiatforum who used to regularly move cars around using his Panda 'Sisley' and a dolly. He often used to post about his towing 'adventures'. Examples of which I can remember him posting about, were buying and picking up a Fiat Barchetta from London and dollying it back home to Cumbria with his Panda. A Tipo Sedicivalvole from Preston to Cumbria. A relations Punto after an accident. A Panda from Newcastle to Stranrear. All with the Panda.

 

In fact when I took this pic at a Panda meet in Lincolnshire, he'd just picked the 'Italia 90' up in Bournemouth that morning and diverted to the meet on his way back up to Cumbria.

 

 

Panda from Newcastle to Stranrear http://www.maranellohouse.com/panda45.html

 

Personally, I always wondered about the legality of the Panda & dolly combo. But the bloke doing it is/was a Policeman......

[chaseracer]

...I always wondered about the legality of the Panda & dolly combo. But the bloke doing it is/was a Policeman.

You may just have answered your own question...

[Lankytim]

Just dug out my "Blackstone's POLICE MANUAL-ROAD TRAFFIC-2000" book. Its very interesting and covers pretty much every aspect of motoring law. I can sit on the bog and read it for hours!

 

 

Anyway, heres what it says on towing cars and trailers...

 

A "trailer" is defined, for most purposes, under section 185(1) of the road traffic act 1988 as a vehicle drawn by a motor vehicle.

 

When a motor vehicle is towed by another motor vehicle, the latter still falls within the category of motor vehicle but can also be regarded as a "trailer" (Millstead v Sexton [1964] Crim LR 474).

 

As "vehicle" is not defined in the Road Traffic Act 1988 virtually anything would appear to be capable as amounting to a vehicle under the right circumstances, even a chicken shed on wheels (see Garner V Burr [1951] 1 KB310) or a hut (Horn V Dobson [1933] JC 1)

 

Where a "heavy motor car" or "motor car" (not being an articulated bus) draws a trailer with at least 20% of the trailer load being borne by the drawing vehicle, the combination will be regarded as an "articulated vehicle" (Road Vehicles Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, reg 3 (2))

 

 

See, its all clear now

[Albert Ross]

According to my handbook for my 1970 109 Land Rover, I can carry 750kg, and tow 3500kg. All at the same time. With un-servoed single circuit drum brakes, with a 62 hp at the flywheel N/A diesel. Not something I will be trying to do soon. And yes, kg are listed in brackets next to the correct weights! (I do however have Military spec 1 ton capacity springs from a combat 109)

[messerschmitt owner]

MY LT35 recovery has a kerb weight of 2100kg, a MGW of 3500kg and a train weight of 5100kg.

 

This means that I can carry up to 1400kg on the truck, and a 1600kg trailer, or a 3000kg trailer with an empty truck.

My 416cdi has a kerb weight of 3.2 tonnes, a mvw of 4.6 tonnes and a mgw of 6.6 tonnes, so I can tow a 3.4 tonne trailer if empty, but of course, the overhang is a killer!

[dieselnutjob]

this document

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle ... frames.pdf

makes the governments position pretty clear

 

In my opinion it is clearly saying that an A framed car or a dolly becomes a trailer as soon as it is attached to a tow vehicle. Therefore there is no requirement for tax/MOT but it must having working brakes on all four wheels if it is over 750kg, and it must have legal tyres, and it must have working lights and numberplate.

 

There is even a discussion in there on braking efficiency. They seem to suggest that if the towed vehicle has a vacuum assisted servo that you would need to rig up a vacuum.

 

I personally think that this is crap as with servo assisted brakes the brakes do still work it's just that the force exerted on the pedal needs to be higher. Well I would have thought that 1 ton plus of weight pressing on a overrun mechanism would be plenty enough force with or without servo assistance as that would be way more force than I can apply with my leg.

 

In my opinion an A frame with an overrun mechanism that pressed the brake pedal of the towed car would be 100% legal provided that

a: the towed car has legal tyres

b: you have a trailer board with working lights etc

c: you are within that the max braked trailer limits for the tow car

d: the brakes actually work

 

I am thinking an overrun hitch that presses a hydraulic piston which is then connected with hose to another piston that can be rigged to press the brake pedal. The hose could just be passed through a window.

 

To acheive 4 wheel braking with a dolly you would need both conventional overrun brakes on the dolly axle with a way to activate the brakes on the car.

 

They also go on about reversing mechanisms but that is crap as they are basically saying that my 1988 Adria caravan is illegal because that doesn't have an auto reverse mechanism. That's a matter of age so just make something out of secondhand old crap and leave it in the rain for a few months....

[whitevanman]

In my opinion an A frame with an overrun mechanism that pressed the brake pedal of the towed car would be 100% legal provided that

a: the towed car has legal tyres

b: you have a trailer board with working lights etc

c: you are within that the max braked trailer limits for the tow car

d: the brakes actually work....

 

 

this is what my A-Frame runs, I have posted pics of it up before, uses a cable to operate the towed vehicles brakes.

[chaseracer]

...must having working brakes on all four wheels if it is over 750kg...

Aha. This explains why the TVP rozzer was so amused.

 

Three-fourths of a rusty 2CV probably weighs the square root of Foxtrot Alpha, which in this case would be about 500kg...

[Andrew353w]

All very interesting..... As I've stated before I have A framed cars all over the place and never had a tug, although I would perhaps have appreciated a "chat" with a VOSA guy, just to clarify things (or not, as things appear!) I cannot remember the gross vehicle weight of my Skoda Fun, nor its gross train weight, but I DO remember its carrying capacity, which was £650Kg. (Mind you, it moved a tonne of bricks without too much trouble once....)

 

I think we would all agree that a Yugo 45 is a fairly light car and it was while towing one of these (remember that one, Torsten 2001?) that the boys in blue went slowly past me on the M1, coming south. I fully expected an indication to pull over, but after an age they sped away and I carried on my merry way to London. My lights were all in order, my tow sign was in place, the yellow beacons were working and the Yugo didn't look like a wreck. In short, I reckon the cops were about as confused as we all seem to be on this one! My advice is this; drive carefully, always run with dipped headlights on, even in daylight, use a light board and an "on tow" sign, check the tyres on BOTH vehicles and wear a high-vis. I used to tow using a tow dolly, but the A frame's much better, mainly because you can fold it up & put it in the boot when the job's finished!

 

Happy to offer more (un-legal) comments if needed....

[pompei]

Not sure about this Dutch combo ...

 

[warren t claim]

I think anyone who passed their test after 1997 is even more strictly limited on what they can tow.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Maybe the solution is to use one of those Lamborghini Cheetah things to do your A-framing with, then if Vosa start hassling you, just accelerate up to say 150 mph. Check that the wheelbearings of your Talbot Alpine (or whatevers on the back) are up to those sort of speeds mind.

 

[whitevanman]

Maybe the solution is to use one of those Lamborghini Cheetah things to do your A-framing with, then if Vosa start hassling you, just accelerate up to say 150 mph. Check that the wheelbearings of your Talbot Alpine (or whatevers on the back) are up to those sort of speeds mind.

 

 

PMSL..............

[dieselnutjob]

Maybe the solution is to use one of those Lamborghini Cheetah things to do your A-framing with, then if Vosa start hassling you, just accelerate up to say 150 mph. Check that the wheelbearings of your Talbot Alpine (or whatevers on the back) are up to those sort of speeds mind.