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dieselnutjob

originality

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If mods are carried out thoughtfully / properly there's no harm done, the cars that fall victim to form over function mods which are carried out for all the wrong reasons, mainly to 'impress' do seem to be doomed. The best mods tend to be out of sight, and where the car is actually improved rather than just looking the part, it is more valued. For example, there's a car in my garage waiting for me to sort out a 5 speed box, It was tuned to go faster and handle better before I bought it, I did a fair amount more. Now if was standard spec it would struggle to hold 70, lose its arse on every bumpy corner, have the braking ability of a sledge and I would have found it hard to find the enthusiasm to spend weeks welding it up / removing 3 decades of patches, filler and sploodge.

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My point was that if you are thinking of modding it you obviously don't think it's worth preserving, so you've made up your mind.

Eh? I'm sure it's possible to preserve a car if it's modified last time I checked!My 510 is well modified and will be preserved indefinately because it's a great car. In fact if I had to only keep one car, that would be the one. It's mega rare but it's mine and it'll never be available to anyone else so why should anyone else care wether it's modified or not?Another example is my old Datsun lowrider which was irreversably modified by fitting hydraulics. I started put it together in '98 and it's still about now. Customising it increased it's value well beyond the level of a standard one at a time when the cars were worth little. Had I not bought it when I did it would have been round the banger track long ago. There are rods and customs in the UK that were built knocking on for 35- 40 years ago and are a classic in their own right. The old Henry Hi-Rise Consul that graced the cover of the very first issue of Street Machine is a good example. It's currently being restored back to how it was back then. Imaging taking such a famous custom and, were it possible, restoring it back to originality. The result? Just another boring old Consul. When henry is back on the road it'll be instantly recognisable with a great history too.Personally, if I find a car interesting, or it has some sort of provenance that makes it special then I might well keep it stock. If I'd prefer it altered in some way, then I'd do it. What others do with their cars with regard to originality interests me little. I appreciate seeing a bog stock original car on occasion but I also like to see creativity and hard work that goes into modiying them. My only rule is, if you are going to modify, put some though and effort in!

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Lets face it, if youre willing to throw money at a car you are most definitely preserving it. Because if you werent, it will break, not ever be fixed and end up as a 'special' on a Tesco aisle. The problem with modifying is that alot of people hear the word and assume plastic fantastic halfords saxo, which in 99% of times isnt accurate. At the end of the day, you bought it, you drive, you decide. :)

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The question at the heart of this is not about the meaning of "preserve" but about keeping a car original. Perhaps I should have written that if you're seriously considering modifying then you obviously don't think it's worth maintaining originality. We all modify our cars to a greater or lesser degree, but as the poster has a rare car and is thinking about a modification to something else completely then he obviously doesn't value the originality - the title of the thread - too highly. That's all I meant.

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Well, I'm one who IS a stickler for originality. I just like to appreciate a car for the style and technology that was of its era. I suppose its like I want to be transported back in time.....if I had been looking to buy this car new thirty odd years ago, then this is the choice I had.If someone wants to blatantly mod it then thats their decision...I'm just not interested in looking at it. In my opinion its spoilt.I would also suggest that when a car reaches a certain level of rarity such as a 604, it should become 'listed' like a house. Only certain mods allowed. When you buy it you agree to keep it as original as possible and when you take it for MOT it flags up as a listed car and originality is checked. There has to be a certain level of responsibility when something gets rare in preserving it to original specification.

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Well, I'm one who IS a stickler for originality. I just like to appreciate a car for the style and technology that was of its era. I suppose its like I want to be transported back in time.....if I had been looking to buy this car new thirty odd years ago, then this is the choice I had.If someone wants to blatantly mod it then thats their decision...I'm just not interested in looking at it. In my opinion its spoilt.I would also suggest that when a car reaches a certain level of rarity such as a 604, it should become 'listed' like a house. Only certain mods allowed. When you buy it you agree to keep it as original as possible and when you take it for MOT it flags up as a listed car and originality is checked. There has to be a certain level of responsibility when something gets rare in preserving it to original specification.

I agree. Other than the bit about telling people they can't modify their cars. I wish we could tbh but sadly it's just not possible and IMHO not right.

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To me original is original unrestored and not restored to original specification. An unrestored car has that wonderful patina that comes with age and you can even 'feel' the history of it. Once it has been restored, especially with paint and upholstery, then that is lost and it is no longer original. and it doesn't really matter whether it is to original specification or not. What I can't stand is perfectly good untouched cars being tarted up just for shows.

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Yep, I like my cars original as well. Preferably with a shit-load of rust, bit of moss on the roof, interior smelling of damp/oil/petrol/dead people, small dent somewhere, vinyl roof peeling..............you get the picture.

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To me original is original unrestored and not restored to original specification. An unrestored car has that wonderful patina that comes with age and you can even 'feel' the history of it. Once it has been restored, especially with paint and upholstery, then that is lost and it is no longer original. and it doesn't really matter whether it is to original specification or not. What I can't stand is perfectly good untouched cars being tarted up just for shows.

I've never understood how cars that have had a "bare-metal respray and full leather re-trim" are then described by dealers as "original", but the OP was asking if putting a different and newer engine in to create a "car that wouldn't have existed" was the way to go.

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Yep, I like my cars original as well. Preferably with a shit-load of rust, bit of moss on the roof, interior smelling of damp/oil/petrol/dead people, small dent somewhere, vinyl roof peeling..............you get the picture.

Yes that's exactly what I meant by 'patina' :)

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To me original is original unrestored and not restored to original specification. An unrestored car has that wonderful patina that comes with age and you can even 'feel' the history of it. Once it has been restored, especially with paint and upholstery, then that is lost and it is no longer original. and it doesn't really matter whether it is to original specification or not. What I can't stand is perfectly good untouched cars being tarted up just for shows.

Hey Saabhappy, at least you qualified your point. Fair play to you.Exactly. This is why monged up 'patina' looks so wrong on the majority of 'rat look' cars. Actual rat look for a late 70's Beetle is probably structurally dangerous.What was it that Baudrillard said? 'Seduction is in the realm of artifice'. Let's each of us subscribe to our own view of what an old car should be kept like, and use emotionally charged words like 'care'.Preservation in the accepted sense is a bit of a minefield. If you a restore a car with new panels and paint, how is it 'original' in objective terms? Yes, it's preserved in that people can still see it (more often at a show, completely divorced from its original context), but not as it was, because we'd be sitting in a scrapyard.Modifying an old car, for better or worse, is an extension \ corruption (delete where applicable) of the restoration mentality laid bare as opposed to the accepted sense i.e. 'restored to original specification'.The ironic thing is that modifying - the very thing that would personalise DNJ's 604 - is the crux of the pro argument. His car, so he can do what he likes.Restoration by its very nature is artificial. Preservation is a delicate balance between keeping a car in existence and acknowledging where it came from in time and its social history (blah blah Colin Campbell etc).I'm happy that my Amazon still exists. It's hardly original these days - everything from the C pillar back has had to be replaced or fabricated. The original parts of the car are holding it back. Stephen Bayley's maxim here is useful : 'The original bits are not good and the good bits are not original'. Progress is inevitable, and I'd rather have it working well, and taking advantage of the technology that's come along after it was built then struggling along on a restrictive 32 mm carb and perished rubber bushes.My solution : a B20E, Konis and polyurethane bushes all round. It's still a Volvo engine - the ultimate evolution of the OHV series, and it will still look and sound like an Amazon without detracting from the essence of the car itself.DNJ's 604 might get a Peugeot diesel engine, and the towbar was doubtless fitted by a dealership or the factory. What's the problem?

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I'm sure that pretty much everyone on here drives a car thatin some way is an extention of their personality otherwise we'd all be driving i10's. So long as something rare isn't destroyed I'm happy! I love a car that's been modified well as well as a car that is original, povo spec original rules though!

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My Saab is not original as it's had a CD player that didn't exist when it was new installed and I've retro-fitted some things which were options at the time but not fitted to my car before this year 24 years later. I've replaced wood trim on cars with better items, fitted radials to a car made before radials were invented, you name it. Heaven only knows how many of my old cars have been painted at some stage. Possession is ten tenths of the law in this case, but all I would say is that if you go really wild and change a car, or let living organisms grow all over it then you are making some kind of statement. The statement is meaningless unless others see it and react to it, and everyone is entitled to an opinion about what you put before them. The problems arise when the opinions you get aren't the ones you were hoping for. I've been taking cars to shows for years now, and the tow bar thing is just about in the top ten daft comments I've heard.I was really sad about PC's Humber Super Snipe Estate being messed with, purely and simply because those cars had sentimental connections with my childhood and I knew it was never going to be finished.

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Hey I agree with WAT's post, well except for the Bayley quote as he sums up all that is wrong with what was once the fuggin daddy of car mags but I digress...Where do you draw the line? It is all very well getting high and mighty about it but at the end of the day he CAN do what the hell he likes to it. The first time someone laid a weld down on that car or had a new tyre put on, it failed to be original. And it is only an engine change, I assume the V6 and current 'box can be put aside for the next owner if he's an originality freak and it will still look the same externally. I would rather see a car being used and adapted to the owner's needs, rather than sat on a driveway being used for shows and the like.

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Actually I am somewhat undecided. And obviously it's easier to talk about this stuff than to actually do it.I was venting a bit in the original post because I didn't like being told what to do.Of course on this forum I have actually asked peoples opinion so I can expect people that don't agree to reply.I really like the car and the way it looks, I certainly don't want to change its appearance.And to be honest I quite like the way it drives on open roads, but I live in London and I would really like to drive the car more.It's true that originality doesn't mean much to me personally, but I can't get it out of my mind that this is probably the only early manual 604 on the roads in the UK.Is it somehow immoral to modify the only one left?If I could find a similar automatic model, I think I would be willing to swap, and if it was a factory automatic one it would meet my needs better and I would probably leave it as it is, but they are now so rare that it won't be easy to find one.There is one thing that I don't understand about this game. I would also told that the car is probably worth more than the £2k that it's insured for, but if the car is so rare and so valuable, then why did it sit on the CPUK website unsold for so long at £1200? It was there for months.There are people that talk about how underated, wonderful, rare etc these 604s are, but they haven't bothered to save any, and they don't buy one when it comes up.I don't get it.

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Personally my take on it is that if someone wants to modify their car in whatever way then fine. I think its better if anything is reversible and that the car could be put back to how it left the factory in the future if someone wanted. I like nice original stuff but in some cases using newer, better componenets makes the car a better thing to use and live with.Take my R4. If it was in its original condition I'd hardly ever get it out of the garage. None reclining / adjusting front seats, hopeless performance etc wouldn't make much fun for going far. It now has R5 front seats, steering wheel, carb as they make it nicer to use and easier to live with. Other bits like a chrome front bumper and different mirrors are purely to my taste. It's all reversible though if I so wanted.I'm thinking that a 5 spd gearbox conversion would be handy. From the outside nobody would know any difference but it would make it much nicer on the motorway.To me a few sensible upgrades / modifications make sense if they make the car more useable and relevant to use now if they are done without significantly detracting from the essence of what the car 'is'.

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I would love to own your 604.

Ditto!Tbh I think you're better off with a second car if the 604 doesn't suit all your needs. Just my opinion of course :)I don't get the uber-originality thing of having matching engine/chassis numbers and the original paint and metal. The engine in the wifes car is already not the original one, the front arches are rusted to **** and some plonker poured brake fluid on the boot when my brother in law used to own it so is it best to keep the ****ed metal on it and just let it rust away for the sake of it being analtastically original.

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I was really sad about PC's Humber Super Snipe Estate being messed with, purely and simply because those cars had sentimental connections with my childhood and I knew it was never going to be finished.

I was talking about this car last night with its ex-owner and he's truly gutted that he couldn't finish it the way he wanted as he has otherwise always got cars to a stage where he is happy with them. They just had difficulty finding solid metal to weld to and trouble deciding just what to do first. He's not a welder and so the cost involved in getting it structurally sorted was simply going to be out of his league. No doubt you'll be pleased to here that it is now in the ownership of a bodywork professional who will slowly be restoring it to factory spec as far as I know.

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Hey saab 'happy', we all know that whatever the PC crew does, inevitably engenders deep within you, a smouldering, barely controllable frenzy of rage and hatred that is likely to explode to the surface at any minute showering everyone nearby in a thick layer of acidic, gloopy, concentrated classic car neo-nazi flat cap venom. They can't win! There was plenty of proper high-quality tinwork done on that Humber and featured in their bodywork series. Yet youre still clearly very unhappy about 'what they did to it'! What a surprise!I remember some of your previous work on the PC forum - 'How dare you talk to me like that Mike Goodbun you arrogant little tick'!!! I think we should stay away from the subject of PC's activites, for the benefit of your blood pressure.

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Hey saab 'happy', we all know that whatever the PC crew does, inevitably engenders deep within you, a smouldering, barely controllable frenzy of rage and hatred that is likely to explode to the surface at any minute showering nearby in a thick layer of acidic, gloopy, concentrated classic car neo-nazi flat cap venom.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

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well i love originality so much that ive striped my car to the bare shell and im goint to fit a different engine box axle suspension and god knows what else, now before you all down me for destroying a classic car i do have a second identical one which will be left standard so hopefully that will resore the delicate balance that nature intended :lol:

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Personally my take on it is that if someone wants to modify their car in whatever way then fine. I think its better if anything is reversible and that the car could be put back to how it left the factory in the future if someone wanted. I like nice original stuff but in some cases using newer, better componenets makes the car a better thing to use and live with.Take my R4. If it was in its original condition I'd hardly ever get it out of the garage. None reclining / adjusting front seats, hopeless performance etc wouldn't make much fun for going far. It now has R5 front seats, steering wheel, carb as they make it nicer to use and easier to live with. Other bits like a chrome front bumper and different mirrors are purely to my taste. It's all reversible though if I so wanted.I'm thinking that a 5 spd gearbox conversion would be handy. From the outside nobody would know any difference but it would make it much nicer on the motorway.To me a few sensible upgrades / modifications make sense if they make the car more useable and relevant to use now if they are done without significantly detracting from the essence of what the car 'is'.

I reckon that sums it up perfectly. Some old cars are a pain in the arse to drive especially on motorways but if the mods are done tastefully and can be put back if the car is ever sold on and a purist wants to buy it, great. I am a purist and I like to see cars in their original form but wheels and stuff and sympathetic engine changes aren't the end of the world. I do think rare cars (ie less than double figures) you might think twice about going really extreme, your mods for the Pug sound pretty sensible. I reckon something that's got a comically low mileage and has never been touched ought to stay that way but most cars go through some form of tinkering over a 30 to 40 year period.

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Hey saab 'happy', we all know that whatever the PC crew does, inevitably engenders deep within you, a smouldering, barely controllable frenzy of rage and hatred that is likely to explode to the surface at any minute showering everyone nearby in a thick layer of acidic, gloopy, concentrated classic car neo-nazi flat cap venom. They can't win! There was plenty of proper high-quality tinwork done on that Humber and featured in their bodywork series. Yet youre still clearly very unhappy about 'what they did to it'! What a surprise!I remember some of your previous work on the PC forum - 'How dare you talk to me like that Mike Goodbun you arrogant little tick'!!! I think we should stay away from the subject of PC's activites, for the benefit of your blood pressure.

You seem to be the one with problems and a very selective memory. I'm not quite sure how all of this is relevant to the thread, but I'm sure whatever your name was on the other forums, we both know who you are and what your agenda is. You could not be further from the truth, but obviously that doesn't worry you. I just want to talk about cars and the fact that your other identity precludes you from doing that is your problem."neo-nazi flat cap" I'm not new, not a Nazi and I don't have a flat cap. Can you say the same?I should stick to cars - that's what I want to do.

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