All aboard the Oriental Express, love or hate sir?l

[Cavcraft]

I would pass up the one mentioned by Cavette unless it was silly cheap (like £500)!

ROFLOL, it stands me a fair bit more than that me old tater!To be fair new plugs have now cured the shit running/EML light, now to have to contend with a passenger window that's 'done a Vectra' on me and needs a hand to come up* but otherwise no other problems at the minute.I'm getting bang into J-tin stuff recently and looking at possibly getting an old Shogun/Pajero thing for some off road malarkey.*Insert your own penis related joke here!

[Pete-M]

Just touching on the MGB for a moment again, I've always quite fancied an early GT. I've never been in a B but can someone honestly tell me what they are really like? Do they handle and perfrom respectably or are they all joking aside really a 50s saloon with a fancy frock?

Nice to sit in. Not very good to drive. They feel very '50s, but not in that over engineered Rover P5 way that is endearing, They don't ride well, they don't handle well, they don't stop that well and they don't go well. They look good, that's about it.There are tweaks out there to improve matters but it's a long hard fight to bring them up to mid 60s performance levels. You'll never get one to handle as nicely as a Fiat 124 or Alfa Spider, and if you did you'd have a huge performance gap to close before you were even close to either the Alfa or Fiat. Problem with the MGB is it was outdated when it was released, and BL didn't do anything to put it right in 30 years. Ok, they gave the engine 5 main bearings after a few years (which comically made it slower), they shoehorned in the boat anchor of a six to make the truly awful MGC, and they fitted a massively detuned Rover V8 just in time for a fuel crisis. If anything, the MGB got worse, year on year from the mid-60's to its death. If the MGB had died in 1968 I'd probably forgive it for a lot of its problems.I do understand the whole MGB roof down summer touring through the British countryside thing, and I can understand why people would buy into that dream, but as a car - the MGB is shit. The MX5 walks all over it in every single department. For handling, ride, comfort, build quality, performance, economy, equipment, ease of use and fun the Mazda is leagues ahead. Try putting an MGB hood up, then try an MX5 one. The MGB hood is a riot of press studs and messing about, the Mazda is two latches and job done - you don't even need to leave the drivers seat. The MGB hood will also leak.The BGT is also very pretty - I bought one mainly because of the looks. As a 2+2 they're totally useless. As a small hatchback they're useless, but very pretty.To me, the MGB is a perfect example of why the UK no longer has a car industry. A pretty little car that could have been so much better with a bit of development, that was built badly and on the cheap by a workforce that weren't interested for a management that didn't have a clue what it was doing. If you were to buy an MGB expecting a sporty car, you'd be kidding youself. Buy one expecting a slightly less cumbersome Morris Oxford and you'll probably like it. Provided it doesn't break down, which it will. Regularly.

[whitevanman]

Well I could slag MGB's off as I cant stand the horrid things......yes lots of people like them, does that equate to them being good? after all in 1997 lots of people thought Labour were good, 13 years later they are not viewed the same but in my view they are indeed shit, but somebody has to like them....

[Station]

I'm glad to say every experience I've had with japanese cars has been pleasant. From a 30 year Suzuki to a 2 year old Civic, I haven't been let down in a way I get down with a car from any other country, down to dodgy manufacture.Interiors can be a problem though, they can really grate after a while. I never thought that would be possible.

[Pete-M]

I've not owned a lot of Jap cars. My mum had a Mk1 Celica GT in the early '80s and I loved that. I had an '83 Celica which I absolutely hated as it didn't do anything particularly well and the interior was a vile light blue and not good. It was reliable though. Replaced that with a Subaru 1.8 GLF 4x4 thing, which I killed in short order. Loved some of the weird toys in it, but truth be told it was pretty miserable.Had a '79 V plate Datsun Bluebird for a few months VLV189V I think.. Yellow with a gruesomely foul orangey brown interior. I remember it as being ok on fuel and very light to drive. Also remember it had one funky interior light / spotlight thing and the indicator relay made a comedy 'boinnnnnng' noise on occasion.Another one I had was a Datsun 100A, GNF709N. So bad it was good. Managed to bodge a 1.5 (I think, might have been a 1. from a Sunny into it. That made it scarily funny.I'm not 'into' Jap cars as such, but I've driven hundreds of them and quite liked some. Did a couple of thousand miles in a 51 plate Accord Executive with all the toys, quite enjoyed it. Did about 5000 miles in a G plate Eunos (MX5) that were all good fun. Mate had a Toyota Celsior which I remember being immensely underwhelmed by - I had a 24v Scorpio Ultima at the time which wasn't as quiet but I preferred it. I'd swap the Toyota's electric seat belt height adjusters for the Scorpios heated seats all day long. I like the way earlier shape Primeras handle, but I cannot get comfy in them. This is something I find in a lot of Jap stuff, and combined with the typical Jap interior it's enough to steer me away from them. The only thing about the Eunos that used to drive me insane was the total lack of cabin storage space in them - a tiny glovebox and the little armrest cubby in the middle. Arrgh!

[saabhappy]

Generally speaking I've been very happy with all the Japanese cars I've owned, driven and borrowed down the years. At the beginning, they were perhaps not quite on the pace compared to European rivals, but they never seemed to break down even though they rusted alarmingly.Sadly, for all the talk I heard about German build quality, the Mercs I owned were plasticky and basic and nothing like the usual journalistic rave reviews would be forthcoming from here. The BMWs I've driven and been a passenger in are soulless, the current 3-series has a shocking ride, and I've always been put off by the image projected by BMW owners in the 80s and 90s. My closest friend at school always wanted an E21, and finally made it to a 323i, but I didn't warm to the car at all. The E36 just wasn't special any more and the materials used seemed a bit down market.Brother drives Audi A4s and is now on his fourth. He's come round to the idea that they are now over-priced, but in his 60th year I'm unable to convince him of the virtues of going Japanese. I rate Mazdas very highly and would have another.

[Cavcraft]

The interiors seem to be the big let down on them to me. Having looked inside stuff such as a GTO 300 (or whatever they're called) 200SX and some Impreza 'wagons' I can't believe how dull they are.Fair play though can't remember having any ag with a Jap car and I set my new 'personal best' time coming back down the lanes from work in a Cherry 1.5.Best surprise of the lot though had to be a Honda Ballade 1.5 that went like a fucking rocket and was pretty much the ultimate 'sleeper'.

[saabhappy]

The interiors seem to be the big let down on them to me. Having looked inside stuff such as a GTO 300 (or whatever they're called) 200SX and some Impreza 'wagons' I can't believe how dull they are.Fair play though can't remember having any ag with a Jap car and I set my new 'personal best' time coming back down the lanes from work in a Cherry 1.5.Best surprise of the lot though had to be a Honda Ballade 1.5 that went like a fucking rocket and was pretty much the ultimate 'sleeper'.

The MX5's interior was so bland that a whole industry producing trim rings and other stick-on bling was spawned. Black and dark, if well put together.

[Pete-M]

I've just sold a '99 A6 Avant V6 quattro and for build quality it utterly takes the piss out of most things, especially the E36 - and my E36 is one of the very, very last ones so they had plenty of time to get it right. Mine has lots of expensive optional toys in it, and it seems rattle-free, but it's nowhere near as well sorted inside.The A6 gripped the road incredibly, high average speeds were an absolute doddle in it but it didn't give any communication to the driver at all. Nothing. Playstation games give more realistic messages about the road than the A6 did. It did give a very good sense of security when driving it as you'd have to be driving like an absolute moron to get the thing to slide so the messages weren't greatly missed. They were there if you caned it, but in normal driving it was very relaxed.The E36 is a whole different ball game. It's sharp. To do the same average speeds as the Audi would do without trying on a twisty A road you need to be working a lot harder, but it is good fun. The E36 responds to the small inputs the Audi would ignore. I'm still having to recalibrate myself to it as it sends messages that I've not heard for a while, messages about low grip levels which the Audi wouldn't class as important enough to worry about. The BMW reminds me of a refined Mk2 Escort in some ways, you can adjust your lines with the throttle and aim it exactly where you want it to go, but you can also dial in some attitude with the loud pedal if you're in the mood to play. The BMW isn't the fastest car, or the best equipped, or the best built, or the comfiest, or the quietest. It's a cheap car that is fun to drive and cheap to run. It's nothing special and I'd never make it out to be, but it is good fun and it's not the least pleasant place to be. It can do sitting on the motorway without being annoying, it's painless for trudging around town, cheap and easy to fix, and it's a laugh on a B road.

[AnthonyG]

the current 3-series has a shocking ride

This is a common complaint - not helped by the fact that a lot of current ones have a free Msport spec 'upgrade' (particularly those sold during the 2008/9 'recession hit' market) that involves harder suspension amongst other things. Fine for cornering at 120mph on an autobahn with a billiard table smooth surface, bloody stupid in the pothole infested UK.Also heard build quality is not as good as the previous model, however since I got this from a man who was selling a previous shape 2005 330i saloon at the time, it could be bollocks.

[saabhappy]

My experience was on the A523 into Macclesfield with a somewhat patinated road surface. Every hedgehog flea and bacteria we drove over hammered the base of my spine - on a serious note, I have a degenerative condition of the spine so ride quality is important to me. I certainly haven't found myself comfortable in a BMW for many years, if at all.

[Cavcraft]

Anyone else think the really comfortable cars you've owned become a yardstick for the others you've had since?I had a Peugeot 405 petrol that was incredibly comfortable on long journeys, ditto a Series 3 XJ6 auto and both were only eclipsed by a BX diesel with new spheres. Never driven a car as comfortable as that, could do near 300 miles trip in that and felt like I'd only done 300 yards.

[Lukas]

Roads in Germany aren´t any better, especially in the eastern regions, but the Germans and sadly the Austrians too like hard and stiff suspensions. Why? Because we are driving too fast like morons on countrylanes, well most people.

[Pete-M]

Anyone else think the really comfortable cars you've owned become a yardstick for the others you've had since?

Definately. My Xantia was comfy, but not perfect, ridges that cross the road tend to send thumps through hyperspastically suspended Citroens. The BX GTi did it as well.. My XJ-S's were good at motorway runs, but pitched too much because of the short wheelbase. Range Rover P38s are superb on the motorway, but can bobble a bit around town. The Bentley Turbo R shudders over bumps, you really can feel the weight in 'em - the ride is superb, but the trim shuddering lets it down. The Safrane 20v could go a long, long way before getting uncomfy. The Volvo 850 was a good mile muncher, but stiff in urban use. Most comfortable car I've ever been in was a Peugeot 604. Waft-o-matic but with decent enough damping to stop the thing from wallowing like an early '70s Cadillac.

[saabhappy]

Jag XJ was the best and most comfortable - every drive felt like an occasion. Peugeot 104ZS had an accelerator pedal whose angle gave me a pain in the shin after about 10 miles so long journeys were hard work. It depends really on what you're prepared to put up with. I've not really planned to buy any of my secondhand cars or hobby cars, I just bought them by chance really. I think it's strange how in the 70s, 80s and 90s motoring writers regularly used to get orgasmically enthusiastic about Alfas etc and how wonderful they were to drive and then later state quite openly that you'd have to be a chimpanzee or a deformed jockey to get comfortable with the long-arm-short-leg driving position. Much the same goes for just about any of the Italian supercars. The special people will tell us about the engine and the heritage and the kudos, but they don't always tell you that a Countach is all but impossible to drive, has zero visibility and is only practical if you do all your driving on an airfield. That's why the things do 1000 miles a year at most. Image is (literally) a pain in the arse.

[Mr Lobster]

I actually found my Alfa (145 Cloverleaf) pretty comfy. One of the things that made me buy my Toledo is that for me the driving position and comfort is absolutely right.MX5 - superb to drive,handles well but yes cabin is a bit bland and dark and lacks any real storage. Drove from Hampshire > Lancashire in one sitting in an MX5 a few years ago and got out virtually unable to walk and deaf. For a bit of a country lane / B road fun though they are pretty damn good.

[saabhappy]

A case of horses for courses. I've got past the age where I can put up with being uncomfortable in exchange for some exhilarating driving experience. I've also got past the stage of being able to change cars quickly so I have to be comfortable. Strangely, for a race smaller in stature than us, the Japanese do seem able to produce cars for Europeans to be comfy in, whereas some European makers can't.

[Cavcraft]

That's why I like to have two cars at least. I like one to be a reliable, smooth daily runner which is decent on fuel ideally and something 'different' as a knock about car to go to work in, thrash or just lark about with/in.I couldn't live with an uncomfortable or noisy car as a daily runner so some of the shit I've owned as fun cars have been brilliant. To it's credit the Proton is like an addiction recently, it's a different animal to my usual daily and encourages me to give it some welly without going too mad.

[saabhappy]

Agree, cav. The hobby car is for fun, although I still don't want to make too many comfort compromises. The daily driver needs to be almost tailored, because at the end of three years if it don't fit you're stuffed. Mazda 3 works perfectly, but nobody'll give it a second look. Good - suits me.

[r.welfare]

Historically I haven't kept a car long enough (less than 18 months, usually) to really get a gauge on reliability, but my wife's Accord has been in our family for the last 7 years and 115k miles. In that time, outside of oil/air/fuel filter changes every 9k, it's needed two sets of tyres, two sets of pads, a set of discs, a cambelt, two autobox fluid changes (to be on the safe side), one brake fluid and coolant change, and two front shocks.It's never failed to start, broken down or had an unscheduled visit to the dealer. It's still on the original exhaust and cat, lambda sensors, ABS sensors etc. Never lit up the EML, either. Everything electrical still works, the a/c is still ice cold. The only faults have been the bulbs blowing behind the clock twice, and now the radio display doesn't light up at night. Oh, and at 10 years old there are a couple of tiny bubbles on one of the wheelarches. That's it.For sure, it's uninspiring to drive with the usual Japanese failing of suspension with insufficient travel or damping control (improved with new Bilsteins though), the seats are not hugely comfortable for long drives and some of the interior plastics are pretty low-rent, but really, from a dependable daily point of view, I think Japanese cars (regardless of where they are assembled) can be hard to beat.

[transfer]

I think I'll go with Gordon Murray on the NSX:

The moment I drove the “little†NSX, all the benchmark cars–Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini–I had been using as references in the development of my car vanished from my mind. Of course the car we would create, the McLaren F1, needed to be faster than the NSX, but the NSX’s ride quality and handling would become our new design target.

Seems pretty conclusive from someone who knows his onions....or his cars, come to that.

Thing is, it's about soul. Some Jap tycoon spent millions trying to re-create an old Ferrari with a crack team of engineers, right down to the style of bolt-head. Those who drove it said it felt like a Jap copy of an all-time great. An NSX is a superb car, but what matters when you're buying a car purely for pleasure is whether it hits the right spot, not whether it's perfect on paper. I bought a '89 CRX once, had it 3 days, couldn't fault it, but it left me cold. Preferred an AX 1100 - it was actually quicker on a regular cross-country route I was doing at the time.

[saabhappy]

Good point - I think what you've described is just how Gordon Murray felt in the NSX.

[ashmicro]

It is true to say that one can be surprised by cars, be it in a good or bad way. I now have an S Type, which is a real nice ride, but I think the most comfotrable thing I ever drove was a (then new) Montego 1.6LX. For some odd reason, the car was PRECISELY the right size and shape for me, that is to say instrument placement, size and angle of steering wheel, pedal spacing, window placement - everything.Weird, huh?

[Gompo]

Good point - I think what you've described is just how Gordon Murray felt in the NSX.

On a slight tangent, one of the McLaren F1 owners on Pistonheads (also owns another Murray designed car) has an NSX Type-R and loves it. Considering he's got the money to have what he wants, and has less than 10 cars, having an NSX is quite a compliment.

[Lukas]

 

 

No other country is still manufacturing cars from the 80s! The Germans aren´t brave enough to produce the W124-E-Class now because it was the best Taxi they ever made. Toyota and Nissan are doing so. That´s why I like japanese cars the most! Sadly there are no LHD-versions...