Scrubworks Fleet: 1990 Mercedes 190D

[Nullzwei]

16 minutes ago, Scrubworks said:

I've been doing a little bit of research on that subject, and found a website written by a guy who's been rebuilding diesel pumps for 40 years or so. He actually lists the available pump types on most cars, and grades their suitability for use with veg oil. Most older diesels seem to have a rotary style pump, which apparently is very dependable (eg, Volkswagen TDI engine), but can eventually give up if pushed too hard. However, he reckons that the inline style of injection pump is nigh-on indestructible and will cope with veg whatever the weather. Guess which type of pump old Mercs use? 😁

My understanding is the Bosch inline injection pumps are lubricated by the engine oil not the fuel you put in the tank.

The only issue i had when i started using veg oil in my 190d was the fuel delivery seals on the injection pump started leaking (o rings & copper washers) which you can get from Mercedes for about 15 quid a set. You will need a  splined socket to remove the 5 nozzles on the top of the injection pump to do this fiddly but easy job (tweezers required).

Your car is really going to be a baby S class with all that sound deadening installed. Top work.

Sainsburys have veg oil at £1 a litre (3 litre bottles) at the moment.

[Scrubworks]

The man from AVG windscreens came today, at 8:30 in the freezing morning no less, and set to it. Despite the cold, he told me he enjoyed doing it as he hadn't done a W201 screen in years. Figures.

The new screen is in, and it looks super sharp. Unfortunately it doesn't have the top tint band that the factory screen does, nor does it have the very slight green tint to the whole glass that all the other glass in the car has. I was a bit disappointed by that, but now that it's in, it shows such clarity that you can't even tell there's glass there in the first place. The optical illusion will no doubt disappear after a bit of use and weather, but it should definitely help with night-time visibility, which was the main goal of this project all along. If you're in the Bucks/Beds area, I definitely recommend AVG Windscreens, they did a top job.

In other news, the car's switch to a vegan diet had the predictable side effect of loosening 30 years of gunk built up in the fuel lines. This has caused three of the injectors to spray diesel outside the engine, as well as in it. The car still runs fine, it just leaves a nice puddle of diesel wherever you park it. The braided rubber fuel return lines also have sprung several leaks, so those will be replaced. As for the injectors, I've actually been waiting for an excuse to have them rebuilt with these:

Monark nozzles, overnight parts from Germany. They are completely redesigned nozzles for the OM601/2/3 injectors, developed using the knowledge gained from the last 30 years of diesel development. These nozzles, according to Daddy Kent, are a win win; they improve power, fuel economy and emissions, and, more importantly for me, greatly improve cold-starting and general running with vegetable oil. The only real downside I can seem to find is the £150 cost for five nozzles from the Fatherland, which doubles the cost of my injector rebuild; £30 per injector from Diesel Bob.

I'm still waiting for a super deep 27mm injector socket to come in the post, but after that the injectors just unscrew. I tried using a 27mm impact socket, but unfortunately those two little hose fittings you can see on the injectors for the return lines hit the reinforcing walls inside the socket, and prevent it from sliding down far enough to contact the hex section and unscrew the injector body. Only a tenner for the proper socket though.

[Scrubworks]

On 11/25/2021 at 8:38 PM, Nullzwei said:

The only issue i had when i started using veg oil in my 190d was the fuel delivery seals on the injection pump started leaking (o rings & copper washers) which you can get from Mercedes for about 15 quid a set. You will need a  splined socket to remove the 5 nozzles on the top of the injection pump to do this fiddly but easy job (tweezers required).

Ugh, you could have told me this when I had the intake manifold off to do the glow plugs 😝. Good info though, I'll keep that in mind.

[MJK 24]

Have you got a link for the injector nozzles, please?

[Nullzwei]

2 hours ago, Scrubworks said:

Ugh, you could have told me this when I had the intake manifold off to do the glow plugs 😝. Good info though, I'll keep that in mind.

I managed to do mine only removing the air box.

Just dug out my receipt from Mercedes Benz Newcastle and the part numbers are MA004 997 45 40 (seal o ring 70p each) and MA017 997 41 48 (sealing ring copper washer 65p each) 2015 prices ex vat.

Look forward to hearing the difference the Monark nozzles make to your 190d.

https://injectionpumps.co.uk/product/mercedes-delivery-valve-removal-splined-socket/

[axelvic]

Great work in a great thread, and a nice car. I’ve had a number of w124:s, from  200D to 400E, and I have to get another one soon, preferably an estate. 
 

Anyway, I can’t see you got an answer about the spring kit supposed to fix slow shifts between 2nd and 3rd. It’s called K1-kit, and consists of a couple of springs and plastics. The Mercedes part number is A1262704477, I think it costs around £20 and can be replaced with the transmission sump removed. It sits behind a plate on the side of the valve body. 

[Scrubworks]

8 hours ago, MJK 24 said:

Have you got a link for the injector nozzles, please?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324198006401

They come with new metal injector seals too which is nice.

[The_Equalizer]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:55 PM, Scrubworks said:

Been away for a little while, a friend's Celica has been occupying my drive while I do some headwork with it. On the 190D front, things have been relatively quiet and harmonious. The electric rear window repair took an interesting turn. I took the motor to a local firm that repairs and rewinds "all manner of electric motors". Walked in the door, and gave the motor to the guy at reception.

"Nah, sorry mate, we don't do car stuff." 
".......ok. How come?"
"We just haven't ever got into it. Not something we do."
"Do you know anyone who does?"
"No."

It's that can-do spirit that really makes you proud of British industry. Back at home, I figured that the motor was already broken. Opening it up and having a go myself would either render it still broken, or maybe working again. It was actually pretty easy to disassemble, and upon doing so I noticed two things. Firstly, the copper commutator bars were fairly badly corroded, due to years of inactivity. A good rub with some scotch-brite and a subsequent dousing with contact cleaner brought them back nicely. Secondly, the earth wire that joins to the end of the windings had been pushed slightly too far into its connector when the motor was originally assembled, and the thin sliver of solder holding it on had broken, breaking the circuit and rendering the motor dead. I clipped it back, gave it a good dab of fresh solder, reassembled the motor, connected a battery charger, and, success!
Professional motor repair workshop - 0
Girl in her kitchen - 1

I took the time to soak the moving parts of the regulator in brake cleaner to remove the old, mostly dried out grease, and replace it with plenty of red rubber stuff. I then put the motor back on the regulator, put the regulator back in the door, and all is now well, the window works. I could show you a picture of the the window down but I think your imaginations will fill in the gaps

While I had the door card off, I also took the opportunity to install some of this on the back of the door skin:

I used to work for a company, who shall remain nameless (exploitative bunch of pricks), that specialised in the customisation of Land Rover Defenders, back when the original model was still in production. Every Defender would receive acres of Dynamat Xtreme sound deadening. The stuff makes a huge difference; you could almost convince yourself you weren't driving a glorified tractor. It's not cheap at £150 per box, but as a product I believe it is second to none. I plan to install it throughout the Mercedes, mainly in the doors. and under the seats and carpets. I may also put some under the headlining, depending on how easy it is to remove. Not that the Mercedes is noisy, but the quieter and more relaxed I can make it, the better.

One of my original goals with this car was to run vegetable oil as its main fuel. Since the car spent most of last year being sat undriven, I wanted to run a couple of tanks of diesel through it to clear its throat. However, due to all the cretins in my town buying up all the diesel a few weeks ago, I decided to bring the veg oil timetable forward. The car had covered almost 200 trouble-free miles and spent half a tank of diesel. I popped to Costco, and bought 20 litres of soy bean oil.

With that in the tank, I was then running a 50/50 mix. The car loved it. No change in performance or cold-starting, only a slight odour of chips from the exhaust. I ran that down to about a quarter of a tank, and then refilled with more soy bean, so I'm now running almost a full veg oil tank now. Half of that tank has now been used. The only adverse effect is that cold-starting when the temperature drops low during the night is a bit lumpy, but this is remedied by giving the glow plugs two cycles. I'll have to monitor this as winter draws in. Thinning it out with some kerosene is always an option. Once running though, the car is absolutely normal, though the chip smell is more intense, and is actually great for keeping tailgaters away. Also, because I'm very cool, I've set up a spreadsheet that automatically calculates how much I've saved on buying veg oil instead of diesel. Even just on 60 litres, I've saved over £20, and that's at the ridiculous price that veg oil is currently going for. It's usually available for well under a quid a litre.

A less pressing issue with the Merc I can now deal with is the windscreen. It is the original one, but unfortunately has become very scratched all through the wiper arc, due to the now-cured electrical issue that caused the wiper to turn on whenever you indicated left. This issue must have persisted for years, and all the dry-wiping has scratched the screen. I've tried my best to clean and polish the screen, and add a layer of liquid wax, which has helped, but I fear without niche specialist attention, the screen is ultimately ruined. There's also a nice chip in it which is just begging to turn into a crack at some point.

During the day it's not a problem, but at night the glare from oncoming headlights is pretty bad, so I dropped into my Merc dealer to see if they could get me a new screen. I have a friend with a W126 S-Class, and he gets all his bits direct from Mercedes, so I know they're good about legacy parts support, but the issue is often cost. I was afraid I'd flummoxed the poor guy at the parts desk, but after about 20 minutes he came back and said,
"Sorry that took a while, the data card was all in German."
"Really? Don't they translate it for you?"
"Well the trouble is, for most models more than 25 years old or so we just have scanned-in documents that we got faxed over from Stuttgart years ago."
"That sounds fun."
Turned out that there were no W201 windscreens anywhere in the European supply chain, not even in Germany, but if I handed over £320, Gunther and Klaus over in Stuttgart would drag the mould out of storage, and cast a brand new screen, just for me, and send it over. Honestly I was gobsmacked; £320 for Merc to make one screen to order is ridiculously cheap in my book. That was about a month and a half ago, and the screen got here last week. I borrowed SKCat's Volvo 940 and collected it from the dealership yesterday.

The windscreen chap is going to pop round tomorrow. Hopefully he won't have to struggle too hard with it.

 

A most enjoyable thread and, until I got to the windscreen bit, was wondering if you'd considered checking with the main dealer for some of the parts you are after. The springs being the most obvious one. I have found main dealers normally quite reasonable and if you smile nicely and are polite you can normally get a 10% discount for 'older models'. The main reason I use them for quite a few bits is I know I am getting the correct part. The way I go about it is to get a copy of the WIS/EPC manual from ebay. You can use your chassis number to get the correct part number and then go an internet hunt or call the dealer.  For parts like clips, filters, certain oils, road springs (I had to replace all four on a W202 I had) and other parts I know that have to be just right it is the dealer all the way. For things like brake pads, discs, calipers I normally root about for (proper) O.E.M such as ATE. I am fairly sure the WIS/EPC covers your 190. I owned a 1988 300SL a few years ago replacing lots of odd, fiddley bits and know I used the dealer for most so will have gone armed with the correct part number.

Good luck with it by the way. I note that there are lots of 'ULEZ ophans' kicking about on Facebook Marketplace at present including a good few 190s.

[Nullzwei]

6 hours ago, The_Equalizer said:

A most enjoyable thread and, until I got to the windscreen bit, was wondering if you'd considered checking with the main dealer for some of the parts you are after. The springs being the most obvious one. I have found main dealers normally quite reasonable and if you smile nicely and are polite you can normally get a 10% discount for 'older models'. The main reason I use them for quite a few bits is I know I am getting the correct part. The way I go about it is to get a copy of the WIS/EPC manual from ebay. You can use your chassis number to get the correct part number and then go an internet hunt or call the dealer.  For parts like clips, filters, certain oils, road springs (I had to replace all four on a W202 I had) and other parts I know that have to be just right it is the dealer all the way. For things like brake pads, discs, calipers I normally root about for (proper) O.E.M such as ATE. I am fairly sure the WIS/EPC covers your 190. I owned a 1988 300SL a few years ago replacing lots of odd, fiddley bits and know I used the dealer for most so will have gone armed with the correct part number.

Good luck with it by the way. I note that there are lots of 'ULEZ ophans' kicking about on Facebook Marketplace at present including a good few 190s.

I use 7zap.com for Mercedes parts numbers and handy exploded diagrams.

https://mercedes.7zap.com/en/eu/fg/car/

[Talbot]

On 11/25/2021 at 8:25 PM, Scrubworks said:

found a website written by a guy who's been rebuilding diesel pumps for 40 years or so. He actually lists the available pump types on most cars, and grades their suitability for use with veg oil.

Have you got a link for that?  Despite knowing that the OM606 I run will do just as well as your OM602 on SVO, it would be interesting to have a read-up on that.

[Scrubworks]

I'm back again after a little hiatus of doing Moggy stuff, and to be honest, just driving and enjoying the Merc. The injector rebuild went swimmingly. Dieselbob may be quite an opinionated chap, but I can't fault his work. My rusty injectors came back looking like this, Monark nozzles installed:

For £300 (half Dieselbob's labour, half the cost of the nozzles), I really can't fault  his work. To reinstall, the injectors were so trivial compared to the utter ballache that it is on more modern unit-injector engines. You just retrieve the old injector seal with a pick, replace it with a new one, screw the injector back in and torque to 70nm, plug the lines back in and that really is it. As easy as doing a spark plug on some cars. I also renewed the braided return lines while I was there.

I know some of you also run these old OM60_ diesels, and are keen to know the gains with the Monark nozzles. In terms of cold-starting, either on veg oil or on diesel, I haven't really noticed any benefits. It certainly still stumbled on very cold days when I had almost 100% veg oil in the tank, but apart from that it's fine. I think glow plugs are more of a factor there. In terms of driveability, I have definitely noticed some small gains, particularly when accelerating from stationary. The car seems more eager to get up and go, especially when running on diesel, though there is still an improvement on veg. How much of this is down to the nozzles, or the fact the injectors are new again, I couldn't say. However, in terms of fuel economy, I was completely taken by surprise. Before the new nozzles, the car would get a combined MPG, on diesel, of 32, dropping to just below 30 on veg. However, with the new nozzles, the fuel economy has jumped by 10, yes, TEN, miles per gallon. The gap between veg and diesel efficiency has closed a bit, now only showing a 2MPG difference. I even got 42MPG on veg during a motorway run. In the summer, I'm going to brim the car with diesel, and see if I can't get it up to 50MPG. Based on the fuel savings alone, I'd recommend the Monark nozzles.

Other news? Well, as Nullzwei said could happen, the delivery valves on the injection pump have blown their seals and started to dribble fuel down the block, thanks to being cleaned out by the veg. I took the part numbers Nullzwei helpfully provided to the dealership, and picked up all 10 pieces for £15. Bit of a price increase from 7 years ago, but eh, at least they're still cheap and available.  I've also picked up the required splined socket and will change the seals, when I can be bothered, frankly.

I also was given a spray tin of Bilt Hamber S50 cavity wax for Christmas, which I sprayed all through the mid to rear sills and internal chassis sections of the car, using the bunged factory holes in the rear wheel arches for access. S50 is fantastic stuff, it actually flows and gets everywhere without needing to boil it for an hour, unlike Waxoyl. The long application straw is also brilliant.

Sadly, my repair to the rear window motor has failed. The system is definitely drawing current when I press the switch, but the window refuses to move again. Door card off again to investigate once the weather's a bit warmer I think.

One thing I've also been on the lookout for for this car is a set of blue vinyl MB-Tex seats, like what this car has:

Lovely. Sadly, these seats are pretty much non-existent in the UK. I've spent months looking on ebay and other sites. Nothing. I've contacted every Merc breaker I can find. Nothing. I've been looking for another W201 that has the seats, so that I could buy it, swap the seats with the ones from my car, and sell it on. I've seen *one* car come up with MB-Tex seats, and they were tan, not blue. I even contacted a specialist classic Mercedes parts supplier in ze Fatherland, but they said "Sorry schweinehund, the W201 is too new for us, try your local dealer". Went to the dealer, the seat upholstery is no longer available. Great. It looks like my only hope is going to be trying to source a set from America (the car pictured is a US model). My only other alternative is a company in Surrey called D-class, who do retrimming work on old Mercs, using genuine MB-Tex fabric. To do my car, they quoted me £3700 +VAT. Um.......... no.

The search continues.

[Scrubworks]

On 11/28/2021 at 11:46 AM, Talbot said:

Have you got a link for that?  Despite knowing that the OM606 I run will do just as well as your OM602 on SVO, it would be interesting to have a read-up on that.

http://dieselbob.co.uk/vegetable.aspx
Sorry it's taken a while 😋

[MJK 24]

I wonder was there something up with your old injectors?

Mine has always done 38/39mpg on predominantly local urban journeys.  Motorway is approx 44/45mpg.

Ive had 51mpg out of it when sat behind trucks for 130 miles!  Boring!

[Nullzwei]

5 minutes ago, MJK 24 said:

I wonder was there something up with your old injectors?

Mine has always done 38/39mpg on predominantly local urban journeys.  Motorway is approx 44/45mpg.

Ive had 51mpg out of it when sat behind trucks for 130 miles!  Boring!

    The manual gearbox equipped 190d 2.5's get better economy than the autos. 25mph per 1000 rpm in 5th gear. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/triggerscarstuff/albums/72157633101147237

 

[MJK 24]

Mine is automatic!  

According to the owners manual that comes with the car, the auto is slightly better on fuel on short, urban journeys.  The manual much better on the open road.

I will say that out of all the cars I’ve owned, a 190d has the biggest variation in economy depending on how it’s driven.

Because I’m sad, and haven’t got a life, I’ve got an app on my phone that works out economy etc.  Turns out I have had the odd low 30’s tank but the majority are high 30’s.

I must drive like a pensioner 😆

 

[MJK 24]

[Nullzwei]

9 minutes ago, MJK 24 said:

Mine is automatic!  

According to the owners manual that comes with the car, the auto is slightly better on fuel on short, urban journeys.  The manual much better on the open road.

I will say that out of all the cars I’ve owned, a 190d has the biggest variation in economy depending on how it’s driven.

Because I’m sad, and haven’t got a life, I’ve got an app on my phone that works out economy etc.  Turns out I have had the odd low 30’s tank but the majority are high 30’s.

I must drive like a pensioner 😆

 

51.4mpg at 56mph for a manual 190d 2.5 according to the Motor roadtest. Not bad at all.

What is the mph per 1000rpm in 4th (top?) gear on the auto 190d's?

I too drive mine like a pensioner. Get into 5th as soon as possible, often going from 3rd to 5th as the engine is nice and torquey.

[MJK 24]

I don’t know the exact MPH per 1,000rpm but 70mph is 3,100rpm.  That’s usefully lower than the four cylinder petrol automatics which are 3,500rpm.

It pulls away in 2nd and driving gently, it’ll go into 4th at 26/27mph.

Can I ask, how fast does your fan spin at idle?

[Nullzwei]

5 minutes ago, MJK 24 said:

I don’t know the exact MPH per 1,000rpm but 70mph is 3,100rpm.  That’s usefully lower than the four cylinder petrol automatics which are 3,500rpm.

It pulls away in 2nd and driving gently, it’ll go into 4th at 26/27mph.

Can I ask, how fast does your fan spin at idle?

So not far off the manual boxes 2,800rpm ish at 70mph.

Sound like a relaxing drive. The manuals will also pull fine from a 2nd gear start on the flat

Never really noticed how fast it spins to be honest. It is spinning all the time at a decent pace though. Why is yours making a lot of noise?

[MJK 24]

It is relaxing.  They’re not slow from a standing start if you put the pedal on the floor.  It’ll drop straight down to 1st and get a move on.  

I think the big drawback of the automatic is if you’re doing 60mph and a truck pulls out on the motorway or something and you want to overtake.  You’re going too fast for 3rd and it’s a bit gutless.  You need to pick your moment to enter the outside lane!  The manual, you’d drop to 4th and put the pedal down and I imagine it’d pick up a lot better.

My fan is spinning away too.  I did wonder if there was something wrong but it sounds like it’s normal then, thanks!

[Nullzwei]

4 minutes ago, MJK 24 said:

It is relaxing.  They’re not slow from a standing start if you put the pedal on the floor.  It’ll drop straight down to 1st and get a move on.  

I think the big drawback of the automatic is if you’re doing 60mph and a truck pulls out on the motorway or something and you want to overtake.  You’re going too fast for 3rd and it’s a bit gutless.  You need to pick your moment to enter the outside lane!  The manual, you’d drop to 4th and put the pedal down and I imagine it’d pick up a lot better.

My fan is spinning away too.  I did wonder if there was something wrong but it sounds like it’s normal then, thanks!

Yeah they like to rev. The opposite of most modern diesel engines with an on or off power band.

But you have the advantage on not having to take your arm off the brilliant centre arm rest to change gear.  😄

Well mine spins all the time as well so hopefully that is as Mercedes intended.

[MrSchwifty]

My 190d 2.5 manual would reliably return 40-42 MPG on a tank, that was after following all of Mercedes Sources tips (diesel purge, new thermostat, Monark injectors etc). I never got much better out of it, maybe 45 MPG if I was willing to be very gentle on a long journey. The damn thing was so miserably slow though I rarely had the patience to drive it gently! The engines are beautifully made things and are amazingly refined for an 80's design, but the fact they didn't offer a turbo version (in the UK at least) must surely be a rare example of German humour? 

[Nullzwei]

15 minutes ago, MrSchwifty said:

My 190d 2.5 manual would reliably return 40-42 MPG on a tank, that was after following all of Mercedes Sources tips (diesel purge, new thermostat, Monark injectors etc). I never got much better out of it, maybe 45 MPG if I was willing to be very gentle on a long journey. The damn thing was so miserably slow though I rarely had the patience to drive it gently! The engines are beautifully made things and are amazingly refined for an 80's design, but the fact they didn't offer a turbo version (in the UK at least) must surely be a rare example of German humour? 

40+ mpg is pretty good for an engine design from the 1980's. Looking back now at the rise and fall of the soon to be extinct diesel powered passenger car i think these indirect injection, naturally aspirated, mechanical fuel pumped diesel engines are a high point.  Slow compared to a common rail engine but without the added complications that make subsequent euro emission standard diesel engines a liability.

 

[MJK 24]

40-42mpg from a 2.5 litre engine is very good.

I have a Volkswagen 1.6TD and that does 50mpg urban but ‘only’ 54mpg on the motorway. 

For it’s capacity, the Merc is probably a bit better.

I agree that these mechanically injected diesels from the mid 70’s to the mid 90’s must be the absolute peak of engine reliability and longevity.

[Scrubworks]

On 3/3/2022 at 10:22 PM, Nullzwei said:

Sound like a relaxing drive. The manuals will also pull fine from a 2nd gear start on the flat

It's so easy to drive relaxedly with the auto box. I find if you put your foot down from a standstill by about 40%, you hit the sweet spot of the torque converter, and it pushes you very smartly off the line, usually faster than anyone else around you can get onto their throttles or let their clutches up. Besides this, I employ a policy of minimum acceleration, maximum speed. I'll give it just enough gas to let the speed slowly rise, and the gearbox change nice and early, but I will carry as much speed as physically or legally possible over every inch of the road. Works very well and is rather good fun 😄.

[Scrubworks]

17 hours ago, MrSchwifty said:

the fact they didn't offer a turbo version (in the UK at least) must surely be a rare example of German humour? 

Something about the steering column on RHD cars interfering with the turbo and its exhaust downpipe. Volvo also gave this as a reason why they couldn't make a RHD 240 Turbo, so maybe there's something in it.

[MrSchwifty]

13 hours ago, Scrubworks said:

Something about the steering column on RHD cars interfering with the turbo and its exhaust downpipe. Volvo also gave this as a reason why they couldn't make a RHD 240 Turbo, so maybe there's something in it.

That would make sense, the exhaust manifold is very close to the steering box already. Guess it wasn't worth the extra engineering effort. 

[Nullzwei]

Apologies for the thread resurrection @Scrubworks but can you let me know which Mercedes main dealer it was who sorted you out with the new made to order windscreen for your 190d? Many thanks in advance.

[Scrubworks]

8 hours ago, Nullzwei said:

Apologies for the thread resurrection @Scrubworks but can you let me know which Mercedes main dealer it was who sorted you out with the new made to order windscreen for your 190d? Many thanks in advance.

The one in Kingston, Milton Keynes, just around the corner from the Costco.