Can They Do This?

[pompei]

Just been looking at the site for Black & White Garage. They have a couple of "classic" Alfas for sale (155 ) and they attach a disclaimer to the adverts that there is no warranty, implied or otherwise available.

 

I suspect that they would be on v dodgy legal ground if they were challenged on this. Has anyone here come across this before?

 

http://www.blackandwhitegarage.com/stoc ... odelId=100

[Timewaster]

NO is the short answer.Sale of goods act would still apply, goods must be as described, fit for purpose and of merchantable quality."sold as seen" could only apply if sold spares or repairs

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

There is nothing remotely classic about a 155! Wouldn't be a bad car for £500, but £950 is a bit much - no doubt they will get that for it though. They're a pretty good garage.

[Guest]

They could sell it like that, but only if you filled out a waiver along the lines of that it is being sold as salvage/scrap, which I imagine they won't bother doing as it'd put people off.But they can't really just say "it's a private sale" and sell it like it's a proper car with no comeback (as they appear to be doing).

[Pillock]

What they said. As they're advertising as a dealer, you're automatically covered by Sale of Goods and a car must be fit for purpose, i.e. do car type things like drive, stop, and go around corners.

 

That's why some less reputable dealers go around the city putting a few cars here and there with hand-written signs in, usually on residential streets. You ring up about it, "Oh yeah mate I'm just at the shops, back in a tick" and they come tearing over from their portakabin to hide the fact they're a dealer.

 

If you sell it as "Spares or Repair" then it must only be fit for that purpose, i.e. fit to break. However nobody in their right mind would pay over 40% book price for a car that was being sold with that in the advert, it suggests that it's totally borked.

[Mr Lobster]

They definately can't legally state 'just like a private sale', as everyone else says Sale Of Goods act will apply. They could though sell it without any warranty or as a trade sale I'd have thought so that as long as it does basic car things - start, stop, drive, etc in complies with SOG act but if in two weeks it develops a relatively minor fault (which being an Alfa it probably will) then they can fall back on the no warranty clause.

[Cavcraft]

'Sold as seen' is actually illegal now I believe and wouldn't stand up in a court.I'd have thought if Trading Standards got hold of this they would, or should, act because what this garage are doing is not legal.

[wuvvum]

'Sold as seen' is actually illegal now I believe and wouldn't stand up in a court.

Presumably that only applies to cars sold by traders though and not to private transactions?

[Station]

I've forwarded it to trading standards. There's no need for them on their part to be so stingey!

[retro80sboy]

when I bought my maestro and saved it from the scrapyard the garage owner was very concerned about this and stressed to me that there would be no warranty or anything and scrawld 'SOLD FOR SPARES AND REPAIRS' all over the sales sheet.for the little I paid for it though im not sure why he was so worried!

[AnthonyG]

when I bought my maestro and saved it from the scrapyard the garage owner was very concerned about this and stressed to me that there would be no warranty or anything and scrawld 'SOLD FOR SPARES AND REPAIRS' all over the sales sheet.for the little I paid for it though im not sure why he was so worried!

You would be surprised the amount of people would try to get their money back if something did happen, even on a £100 car - this is why a couple of breakers yards I know don't sell cars onto the public, although they will to proper traders as they know the score. What B&W are doing is illegal under Sale of Goods act- they can't be 'a private seller' when it suits them!

[Guest]

Yeah, if you're a private individual there's not really any comeback - I suppose in theory if they were unhappy with the car, they could try a claim in the County Court, but I doubt it'd come to anything.Businesses have to abide by different rules to individuals. The main point being that they can't just pick and choose what is going to be "sold as seen" - it's more of a Trading Standards matter, something to do with the Sales of Goods act and being "fit for purpose" as mentioned above. Being fit for purpose is surprisingly flexible though - an interesting point is that Trading Standards actually consider things such as age and cost and the expectations therein.As a dealer I don't think it is possible to completely refuse a warranty and say "sold as seen" as such, but you would have to make clear for what purpose the car is being sold as. If you sold it as salvage there wouldn't be many options for them to go to Trading Standards, because being fit for purpose would pretty much just mean it is correctly advertised - the correct vehicle etc. The only sort of warranty would be along the lines of if you said it had a great engine, it would need to have an engine that wasn't completely useless. It's a bit like the warranty on a sack of gravel - it'll exist in some form but be utterly pointless.Since they're advertising it as a proper car through Autotrader at a normal price and just saying "sold as seen", they're just trying to have their cake and eat it, doesn't work like that unfortunately.

[Ratdat]

The situation with private sales used to be that you could return a car to the seller and demand your money back within three days of buying it if there was an undisclosed fault but only if it made the vehicle unroadworthy. We helped out a friend of mine some years back who had bought a really ropey escort van and basically been ripped off because he knew nothing about cars. We found enough faults for it to be deemed unroadworthy and got him his money back. Obviously this only applied to cars with a test. Not sure if this still stands as it was in the early 90's.

[Cavcraft]

'Sold as seen' is actually illegal now I believe and wouldn't stand up in a court.

Presumably that only applies to cars sold by traders though and not to private transactions?

Nope, apparantly private punters can't state 'sold as seen' either. I suspect it's to stop people selling expensive cars that they know are fubarred and then playing the 'sold as seen' card.That leads me on to think the new 'sneak' way to advertise cars is a very short description and 'spares or reapirs due to age' or something wank like that.That way if you buy it, find it's knackered or there's more faults than you think it's worth bothering for they have got you again.Look how many cars on ebay appear with one or two pictures, details of MOT and tax and nothing else. It's because people think if they don't actually state 'good condition' or 'excellent runner' then if you find faults you can't blame them.

[Pete-M]

I've forwarded it to trading standards. There's no need for them on their part to be so stingey!

You're not one of those people who thinks traders make eleventibillionsquillion quid on every car are you?On a £1200 Alfa 155 they might be making £200, possibly £250 (less tax), Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.To replace the camshaft variator on one of those is close to £200, so unless the trader wants to try and sell the Alfa for £1500 he's in shit if the variator starts rattling - which they always do. Now, if Joe Public buys the car for £1200 and the variator is ok, trader is fine. But the bloody things give up randomly at any time and start rattling like a million mile Pinto. Joe Public goes back to trader, trader has to fix it, trader has lost money. Joe Public, if he's done any research, will know about Alfa variators being consumable, so he's just fucked the trader for £200.Thing is, with Alfas, it's not just the variators, there's oil pumps, gearboxes, electrical issues, steering racks + pumps, and a whole lot more besides.Basically means that flogging Alfas isn't worth the risk for a trader while there are cunts out there willing to take them to Trading Standards for selling something as innately risky as a 10 yr old Alfa 155.I like Alfas. I'm very glad there are people out there trying to sell them to people. I'm glad there are specialists out there who're still trying to keep the old Alfa flame alive. These are the people who've saved my bacon whenever one of my old Alfas went wrong.This has just made me decide that I will no longer deal with the public when it comes to selling cars. Fuck 'em. Trade only.

[Station]

Got this back:

Thank you David, I will go and see them next week Regards Kevin ThompsonPTSO

You're not one of those people who thinks traders make eleventibillionsquillion quid on every car are you?

No, they're selling 50 year old Italian cars, I think they might be making a bit.

[The Liberator]

On a £1200 Alfa 155 they might be making £200, possibly £250 (less tax), Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.To replace the camshaft variator on one of those is close to £200, so unless the trader wants to try and sell the Alfa for £1500 he's in shit if the variator starts rattling - which they always do. Now, if Joe Public buys the car for £1200 and the variator is ok, trader is fine. But the bloody things give up randomly at any time and start rattling like a million mile Pinto. Joe Public goes back to trader, trader has to fix it, trader has lost money. Joe Public, if he's done any research, will know about Alfa variators being consumable, so he's just fucked the trader for £200.Thing is, with Alfas, it's not just the variators, there's oil pumps, gearboxes, electrical issues, steering racks + pumps, and a whole lot more besides.Basically means that flogging Alfas isn't worth the risk for a trader while there are cunts out there willing to take them to Trading Standards for selling something as innately risky as a 10 yr old Alfa 155.I like Alfas. I'm very glad there are people out there trying to sell them to people. I'm glad there are specialists out there who're still trying to keep the old Alfa flame alive. These are the people who've saved my bacon whenever one of my old Alfas went wrong.This has just made me decide that I will no longer deal with the public when it comes to selling cars. Fuck 'em. Trade only.

The fact is though, they're trying to sell it in a way which allows them to duck their obligations as a trader. I'd say fair enough if they were asking private seller money for it, which would be more like £700 from the photos and decription, but they're not.I'd like to see the whole 'sold as seen' thing come back and be given some legal status. That way, Alfa-loving cheapskates like myself could stand a chance of buying an old Alfa a trader might have without paying an absurd premium on the price so the trader can cover his arse from the kind of bell-ends you've alluded to. Maybe just some kind of protection from buying a ringer/stolen car, but if something goes wrong, falls off or doesn't work and you didn't check it - you're on your own.tbh, I don't see why that Alfa should be any more problematic than any other 15 year old car, apart from parts prices. It's a Tempra underneath, it's galvanised, has a cam chain rather than a belt, and the variators are, in fact, pretty reliable (it's the later 16v cars that have all the problems, engine-wise).

[Pete-M]

The fact is though, they're trying to sell it in a way which allows them to duck their obligations as a trader. I'd say fair enough if they were asking private seller money for it, which would be more like £700 from the photos and decription, but they're not.

I agree with you on that, but I've had a 155 and when I tried to sell it to private punters they wanted a ridiculous amount of guarantees that the thing wasn't going to blow up. "Will you give me a 12 month warranty on the engine?", um, no. I wouldn't give any more than 1000 miles or a couple of weeks on one, and even then I'd be worried about it as Alfa drivers tend to rag the nuts off the things.

I'd like to see the whole 'sold as seen' thing come back and be given some legal status. That way, Alfa-loving cheapskates like myself could stand a chance of buying an old Alfa a trader might have without paying an absurd premium on the price so the trader can cover his arse from the kind of bell-ends you've alluded to. Maybe just some kind of protection from buying a ringer/stolen car, but if something goes wrong, falls off or doesn't work and you didn't check it - you're on your own.

You're not the only one. Unfortunately, people in this country won't take risks on older cars. They want the same guarantees as they'd get on something brand new and sparkly on a 15 year old, £300 shitter. It's mental. I sold a 37 year old Rover P6 a few months ago, and the questions I was asked about the thing were just insane; "Has it ever been smoked in?".. FFS. Even my Audi, 10 years old, 188k miles, good car but not perfect as it's getting on a bit, I'm getting people asking ridiculous questions "Can you guarantee it's never had anything other than VW 505 oil in?", well the answer to that is, no, I can't guarantee that. I've not been watching like a hawk for the last 10 years every time the bonnet has been opened. Tell people that and they don't want to know. It is mental. The public have such a low view of the motor trade that even though I'm 100% honest with my cars I'm still viewed as being some sort of lying low life shit just because of the trade I'm in.

tbh, I don't see why that Alfa should be any more problematic than any other 15 year old car, apart from parts prices. It's a Tempra underneath, it's galvanised, has a cam chain rather than a belt, and the variators are, in fact, pretty reliable (it's the later 16v cars that have all the problems, engine-wise).

I've had plenty of reliable Alfas, but they do take a lot more looking after than say, the Audi, and they cost more to fix as Luigi in Italy insists on making things like cambelts pretty inaccessible and he's only recently discovered that decent electrical connectors are only any use if they're attached to decent quality wire.Not just Alfas, by the way, Have a peep at a Ferrari 355 and you'll see wiring in places it should never be...

[Rusty Pelican]

I sold my 86 stage rally quattro on ebay ages ago , my description was like a russian novel , reams of stuff like every dent , scratch , knacked / missing interior , rusty bits , the works , engine i described as using no water , a little oil and seemed OK to me , guy who won came down from Cumbria ( I live in Somerset ) look it for a test drive , said it wasnt as quick as it should have been but admitted my ebay didnt say if flew like the wind and id been honest , payed up and drove home , so a huge discription worked for me

[Pete-M]

Problem with huge descriptions is that people tend to read them right through and decide that everything you mention is actually ten times worse than you've described. Even if they've got close up pictures.Whenever I've bought off ebay I've made the bid, turned up, looked at it, paid, and gone home. Buying something unseen means paying the least amount possible for it, bearing in mind that the thing may have major mechanical issues and may be a complete crock of shit.If something is expensive, I'll view it first, but other than that, eBay is just a tat-fest. I'd much rather buy through the trade than risk Joe Public's description of something being accurate (although sometimes it's fine, I've bought some cars from eBay and there has been nothing wrong other than the things the seller has listed).I suppose I'm just cynical about the public, in the same way they're cynical about the trade.

[Guest]

Just to provide some contrast to the 155 situation, a mate of mine has had an Alfa 155 for over 10 years and his problems with the car have been limited to a slow leaking of brake fluid and a flat battery. Bad news them Alfas!

[Pete-M]

I had a fairly low mileage 155 a couple of years ago, it was reliable other than needing a belt / variator / tensioner swap and a clutch slave cylinder.As I bought it astonishingly cheaply because of the belt / variator / tensioner needing doing - and I have a tame Alfa tech with the tools for the job who can do it in an hour, I can't complain.The 156 on my website, a mate bought it (I advertised it for him) and then discovered how much the belt / tensioner / variator was going to cost to fix. He shit a brick, paid for it to be done, and then sold the car a.s.a.p. before it cost him any more money.He'd been running a BMW 520i (E34) for four years previously and even getting it serviced by a specialist it had never cost him more than £150ish for a full service, the cost of just the belt etc on the 156 put him right off the idea of trying to run it for a few more years.He was getting £5-600 quotes for a 36k mile service from Alfa independants. That is mental money to service a 1.8 litre family saloon. Ok, the belt etc change is a couple of hundred quid, but he'd be looking at spending £1200 on servicing every 2.5 years if he'd kept it and had it serviced at specialists. He was spending £250ish a year on the 5 series, including consumables like tyres.I adore Alfas but they can be hideously expensive to put right.

[Rusty Pelican]

Problem with huge descriptions is that people tend to read them right through and decide that everything you mention is actually ten times worse than you've described. Even if they've got close up pictures..

That was the whole point Pete , I did make it sound worst than it was , no dout I lost potential buyers and some money because of it , however the buyer , in this case prepaired to come 300 odd miles to buy a car unseen would im sure rather id made it sound worst than the usual much better than it actually was and be bitterly disapointed at my losy discription , ive sold three cars through ebay , no one has complained thus far , all 3 were bought sight unseen ,

[Station]

I like those 80's and 90's Alfa Romeos, they look really brutish, but a bit nondescript.I don't think the whole Italian design thing really is that beautiful to be honest.

[Cavcraft]

The other problem with long adverts is that pin heads simply skip what they don't want to read, win the listing then say 'didn't realise x,y or z was wrong with it sorry' or even 'I've just looked where (major town or city) is on the map and it's too far away.I will always, but always, describe motors accurately, warts and all, and would sooner take a couple of hundred quid from a sensible buyer than some tosspot who will waste my time

[Albert Ross]

I've bought and sold cars on eBay, some good, some bad. I never had great expectations for my Land Rover, as it was advertised as having been in open storage for 6 years, and needing a week of welding....I didn't realise the advertiser meant 24/7 though. I still bought it, after a 5 hour journey and the prospect of the same return ...... I now drive it daily, after a replacement chassis. My S-Class Merc was interesting though. I bought it unseen almost from a Halifax trader, after seeing a bloody awful example in Lancashire. I kept it for 6 months or so, and tried to sell it on Auto trader. Loads of phone calls, and a few visits, one bloke told me it was better than he expected, and he felt he couldn't make an offer as he didn't want to insult me ( And there's me thinking "just offer me 2k and it's yours mate".....it was up at 2695.....) I eventually let it go as part ex against a 1995 Fiesta Diesel to teach the Wife to drive in. No financial loss there, as I got a grand cash in my hand too. I have sold all sorts of shitters on eBay, and one prime example was a Polo my Son owned. Very accurate description of all the damage and poor paintwork, the lack of history, the rattle, the near bald tyres etc, a Chinese guy from Leeds came to visit, and was bidding well, until he was gazumped by a student.......who came to pick up his £135 quid car, drove it home, and proceeded to tell me that it was a death trap, the tyres were illegal, I shouldn't be selling things like this, yet I stated in the advert that I would prefer bidders to come look at the vehicle prior to bidding. Wanker. He attempted to involve Trading Standards and CAB. I told him if he did that, I had his address, and would make myself unwelcome at his doorstep with the full cash payment in my hand, (less fuel costs of course) and collect the car in its unchanged state ..... he then revealed he had paid £400 for it to be serviced at his local main VW dealer..... COCK! So he kept the fucking thing.On the flip side, I sold a car to a Russian illegal immigrant who paid cash, and drove it to Hereford, and then rang me to tell me he got home safe, and was REALLY pleased with the car. (Brown 1995 Escort)Also I sold my Disastra Estate to Greenvanman. Faultless sale, top purchaser. See his posts for details of his pleasure!Other times I sold £80 shitters and got calls demanding 35 quid to pay for a fuel cap as he broke the key, and it was my fault for not telling him! CUNT! Told him to fuck off or I would pop round and brick his wiondows..........tosser.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I've forwarded it to trading standards. There's no need for them on their part to be so stingey!

Are you some kind of cunt?A garage has for sale a half decent old car at a price which is commensurate with it's age and mileage. The Sold As Seen thing isn't legal as such - they probably know this as they've been car dealers for a very long time - probably when your Mum was wiping your arse. It's probably there to dissuade dozy fuckwits like you from demanding warranties and Grade A dealer service on a sub 1000 quid car. The motor trade is very hard work right now, and thanks to a nosey shithead like you, they might end up in court with a fine.Twat.

[Richard]

Is calling people cunts not best done by PM, if at all?

[Rusty Pelican]

My thoughts exactly , seems to me were all suffering from SAD , or depressed by resession , no money , the weather , calm down everyone , Chrismas soon ( shit now im depressed )

[The Liberator]

sadness.