project 1951 Pontiac Chieftain

[PhilA]

The filler neck had been leaking profusely. Somebody had attempted to seal it by throwing cold lead at it with a hammer. That didn't work.

I heated it up and popped it off. It was sealing around about 1/5 of it's base.

Cleaned it all up nice. Added flux to finish. Tinned the surfaces.

Bosh. That doesn't seem to leak now.

 

Peeled the fins back a little and cleaned as best I could. With my big torch I was just chasing the leak along the edge.

Bought a Bunsen adjustable torch with a really fine flame.

Not the tidiest job but that's the solder pooled rather than just plain blobby. Shall see if it still leaks tomorrow.

 

Phil

[PhilA]

Further inspection showed the seam to be cracked a few more inches along the top. Cleaned it up and soldered it back up. I'm improving my technique.

Pressure testing highlighted a small crack.

Cleaned it up and added flux.

Soldered up.

 

High tech pressure testing rig showed no more leaks. Next test will be cooling the engine.

 

Phil

[hairnet]

Skillz (git)

[PhilA]

Maybe, I doubt it would pass plumber's muster but if it doesn't leak then I'll settle for that.

 

I need to go to the dollar store and get some baking trays to disassemble the gearbox on.

 

Phil

[paulplom]

I once put a longer screw in to hold the grill on my metro. It went straight into the radiator. I soldered it up and it was still fine and holding 5 years later.

[PhilA]

I look at it this way- it was only soldered together at the factory. I'm not song anything they wouldn't, barring repairing that crack.

Phil

[PhilA]

Just ordered a pair of Snap-On 70A pliers to do the gearbox with. 

The trouble with vintage machinery is that vintage tools, once commonplace, are required to correctly dismantle it. Nowhere has this type of tool any more, which is odd. When did big chunky snap rings go out of vogue?

 

Phil

[PhilA]

Upended the gearbox and pulled the lower oil pan off. Oh dear. That does not look very good and belies the cleanliness of the oil.

Cut the dirt a little with some gasoline. The contents of the oil pan are distressingly metallic.

Finished cleaning it, removed all the damn blue silicone sealant.

Painted it to stop it going rusty.

Removed the oil strainer gauze, this above it is some very unhappy looking swarf.

 

More to follow

 

 

Phil

[PhilA]

I'm actually hoping that one or more of the friction plates has died (the amount of black scheiße in the pan suggests it) then the clutches will have been steel on steel.

 

I'm hoping it is that. That's just a case of clean out and reassemble.

 

Phil

[PhilA]

Got all the control servos and valve block off.

Pump out. Bands and drums look good.

Pile of pieces...

Bigger pile of pieces, need more trays.

Case is good.

Friction assembly externally looks good. Hopefully all that is just busted up clutches, which can be replaced. Typically I was "nah, she'll be right"... 

 

Phil

[Madman Of The People]

I've spent the last few days reading this entire thread.  What an epic restoration project!

I'm having flashbacks to the 1952 Chevrolet Styleline I owned back in the 1980s.  It was very similar looking to this Pontiac, although the OHV inline "Stovebolt" six and three speed column-shift manual gearbox were somewhat different animals. Fortunately, your car is quite a bit more solid than mine was.

You sir, have won Autoshite!!!

 

[PhilA]

Funny, the wife was going through the classified advertisements yesterday pointing out the cars she likes.

'53 Styleline, '69 El Camino, '65 Lincoln, '65 Thunderbird...

I said there's a nice one in the garage. She said these are restored already and look shiny and ready to drive

 

Sigh

[hairnet]

?

 

[PhilA]

Well, there goes September.

 

Pulled the snap ring off, separated the rear drum from the bearing. Was greeted by a broken oil control ring.

There's the source of the swarf.

That's well and truly rogered.

 

So, hunt begins for a new center carrier and at least the rear drum. Haven't pulled the front one off yet, that's a bit more of a pfaff.

 

Phil

[hairnet]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-new-old-stock-1951-Pontiac-Olds-w-8-cyl-D51-HYDRA-MATIC-TRANSMISSION-ASSY/272933360914?hash=item3f8c189512:g:6kMAAOSwcx5ZZ8hK

wow

[LightBulbFun]

5 minutes ago, hairnet said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-new-old-stock-1951-Pontiac-Olds-w-8-cyl-D51-HYDRA-MATIC-TRANSMISSION-ASSY/272933360914?hash=item3f8c189512:g:6kMAAOSwcx5ZZ8hK

wow

Bloody hell what are the chances of that! he doesn't have a crate full of Salsbury 795 pulley sets does he?

[hairnet]

hes gotta be worth an ask about individual parts eh @PhilA

1800 bucks ?

just watching wheeler dealers butcher the fuck outta a 500 sec

[hairnet]

18 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Bloody hell what are the chances of that! he doesn't have a crate full of Salsbury 795 pulley sets does he?

https://www.ebay.com/bhp/salsbury-clutch

[LightBulbFun]

if only it was that simple!

I have found info/listings for everything Salsbury except the 795 set of course *grumble*

(im wondering if the 795 set was just a combination of driven and driver pulleys from other sets (ie say a driver from the 770 set and a driven from the 790 or something such) to give specific characteristics rather then the 795 set being its own custom pair of pulleys)

anyways best we switch back to Phils magnificent beast before people figure out exactly what im referring to and lynch me

[PhilA]

I may not have to go down that route (plus I don't have $1800), I have been given a lead to a transmission specialist who may have the parts for much less than an entire transmission.

On the upside, I now know the correct green the label should be.

 

Phil

[PhilA]

Ok. The center carrier is available new.

The diagram shows sleeves but that looks like happened is the ring jammed and spun the sleeve, screwing up both the sleeve and the drum.

Gonna speak to the transmission place when they're open. Needs new fluid sleeve and at least the rear drum.. front doesn't look too happy. Concerned that the valve body has drawn all the swarf in when the valve closes and the fluid dumps back out the way it came in- and is equally jacked up.

 

Phil

[PhilA]

Root cause analysis shows that central bearings failed. 

This allowed the shaft to have too much free play. The drums were then able to decentralize, the fluid delivery sleeve then made contact with the drums and chewed them up. 

The additional heat and mis-alignment caused the oil control ring to fracture.

Luckily the central shaft remained fairly unscathed. 

So, new drums and a new fluid sleeve should see this well again.

I haven't taken the valve block apart yet, hopefully that'll be undamaged.

 

Phil

[hairnet]

'So, new drums and a new fluid sleeve should see this well again.'

still eek

[PhilA]

Possibly just the hubs if they a) have them and b) sell them separately.

 

Phil

[PhilA]

A lead on preloved hubs.. which won't break the bank (too badly). Looking at 160 each hub, 95 for the fluid sleeve, then some bearings and rings on top.

Not so bad for a completely kippered transmission.

Phil

[PhilA]

...or not, I think I'm reading the wrong part number reference.

Gonna make some phone calls

[Asimo]

It's rather amazing that there is any help for this ancient proto-autobox, it's nearly 70 years old! That any parts for it are available just goes to show how active the old-car world is in the USA compared to the "classic" scene here.

[PhilA]

Well, just got off a lengthy email chain with a very helpful guy called Mike at Fatsco Transmission in New Jersey (http://fatsco.net). I need to split one of the assemblies to check the tooth count on the sun gear (he says there were two ratios used and the only way you can tell is to pull it and count 'em) but they have all the parts in stock that I need to rebuild the broken parts.

I do have to say though, this is rather like the classic Mini or VW scene because these were very popular vehicles and a long-lived transmission that they made many, many of. Still, it's nice to email and get a reply- the parts come to just over $300 which is less than I was thinking. That's two of the big drum sections, the bearings, the fluid carrier, rings all together.

There's hope yet

 

--Phil

[PhilA]

Clutch pack, full of swarf. The pretty little 6 shiny bits on the ring sitting in the clutch shouldn't be there. That should also be yellow, not black. 

The steel isn't all that happy looking either. 

Added to the shopping list. 

 

 

Phil

 

[PhilA]

Other drum came apart with creative use of mallet and wood. 

Seals are junk, friction discs have some material left but are breaking up and the steels, although smooth, have heat fractures radiating out from the center. 

Phil