invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

Very cool stuff!

 

thank you for scoping it out and grabbing pictures iv been wondering what the story was with that one, its very interesting to see NI Model 70s indeed had NI reg plates,

 

I wonder if they where sent over as CKD kits and assembled in NI? or where they Ex Mainland cars brought over and re-registered? (how does the reg system work in NI where age related plates given or just the year of registration?)

 

the VIN plate will (well should) have a year of manufacture stamped on it

 

 

as seen here on TPAs plate

 

indeed 1980 is quite late, I THINK manufacturing of Model 70s stopped in 1977 some time (as that was the DHSSs final contract) I have seen a few S reg Early 1978 examples but nothing later like a T reg, I can tell its probably a Later made one because of its larger speedo, compared to the smaller ones as featured in TWC and TPA etc

 

WOI654 seems a bit short for a NI reg? (I have it in my head that all NI Regs contain 4 numbers on the end) I wonder if theres a digit missing there

 

as for where Model 70 comes from im not 100% sure myself, the predecessor to the Model 70 was known as the Model 67 and the one before that was known as the Model 57.

 

as for control scheme variations, the brochure for the Model 70 says theres 56 possible configurations, so i dont think 70 comes from there

 

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

Poor thing! So it is completely missing a door for a start then - not going to be easy to find? Yes please to the other pics! I'm intrigued now. Does it have a Steyr Puch engine? Cos, if so it might still be of use to Wobbler/Zel? I get confused about which car has which engines.

 

Are you 'allowed' to get V5's for Mk12's in the same way as model 70s?

 

yeah indeed its quite sad, with any luck the door might be lying around somewhere , but I dont know for sure, funnily enough I seem to have more luck finding Mk12s for sale then I do model 70s! despite the fact Mk12s are much rarer 

 

being a Mk12 it has, the for the time, standard Type 11E villiers motorbike engine 

 

only the Model 70 got the better Steyr Puch engine, every invalid carriage before then, was either electric or had some sort of villiers engine

 

 

heres all the pictures

 

 

the front end body work looks to be pretty intact, and the rear looks pretty Ok too apart from a chunk missing where the number plate goes

 

I think the main thing it would need is a new floor and a good blow job from a leaf blower  (although I dont really know what the rest of the chassis is like but the Mk12s are very simple underneath) so if someones feeling brave its probably not too far gone to be put back on the road

 

AFAIK any invalid carriage can be re-registered these days, at most it might need a dating later from the invalid carriage register if its original identity is lost

 

 

heres what an intact Mk12 looks like from the front

 

 

and from the rear

 

[egg]

Cool. thanks. Any mention of a price?

[Datsuncog]

On 2/7/2019 at 3:53 PM, LightBulbFun said:

Very cool stuff!

thank you for scoping it out and grabbing pictures iv been wondering what the story was with that one, its very interesting to see NI Model 70s indeed had NI reg plates,

I wonder if they where sent over as CKD kits and assembled in NI? or where they Ex Mainland cars brought over and re-registered? (how does the reg system work in NI where age related plates given or just the year of registration?)

the VIN plate will (well should) have a year of manufacture stamped on it

 

as seen here on TPAs plate

 

indeed 1980 is quite late, I THINK manufacturing of Model 70s stopped in 1977 some time (as that was the DHSSs final contract) I have seen a few S reg Early 1978 examples but nothing later like a T reg, I can tell its probably a Later made one because of its larger speedo, compared to the smaller ones as featured in TWC and TPA etc

WOI654 seems a bit short for a NI reg? (I have it in my head that all NI Regs contain 4 numbers on the end) I wonder if theres a digit missing there

as for where Model 70 comes from im not 100% sure myself, the predecessor to the Model 70 was known as the Model 67 and the one before that was known as the Model 57.

as for control scheme variations, the brochure for the Model 70 says theres 56 possible configurations, so i dont think 70 comes from there

Mmm, that's a good point and it's quite possible that these late Model 70s were GB vehicles that were brought over and then re-registered in NI.

Until the DVLNI was shut down a few years back and records transferred to DVLA in Swansea, re-registered cars weren't issued with age-related plates over here - just whatever was the next number in the current series. Hence when I bought a Cortina in Glasgow in 2008 (NJW605X) and had to re-register it in Belfast to tax it, I was given the option of either retaining its existing GB plate or being issued with a brand new NI one (UEZ****, if I recall). I preferred to keep the original X-reg plate.

If you want to know more about the NI registration system...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_the_United_Kingdom#Northern_Ireland

Basically, there's a 'root' code which is assigned to an office (say, OI for the Belfast office) and the series begins alphanumerically with AOI 1 and then scrolls through to AOI 9999; then flicks over to BOI 1, through to BOI 9999, then COI 1... etc etc.

It doesn't change year on year, just cycles through to the next as registrations are allocated. Once an office code is used up (YOI 9999 would have been the last of the OI series, as per the example above - Q and Z don't get used, though QNI was used for kit cars in the same manner as GB's Q suffix/prefix) then a new root code would be assigned (for Belfast, this new series started with AXI 1).

So one, two and three digit numberplates do exist, as per WOI 654, but there are naturally fewer of them and nowadays they're all cherry-picked and sold by DVLA as cherished numbers at source.

Years ago, you might have seen all manner of cars with a 'low number' whereby a dealer just happened to have been allocated a block at the point of change - I remember a shabby old Toyota Corolla banging about locally with TOI 3 on it. Usually big dealers like Charles Hurst held over 'good numbers' for their prestige cars or valued customers - so if you happened along to blow a wodge of cash on a new Ferrari or S-Class, you might have come away with something plated SXI 5000 or MBZ 420, for example. But now you'd have to buy plates like these directly from DVLA, as dealers don't seem to get allocated anything very interesting.

But yes - I'll go back and try to get some pics of that VIN, just to unravel the mystery a little!

[LightBulbFun]

Cool. thanks. Any mention of a price?

 

no sadly I dont know price

 

once I saw it was not a Model 70 I thanked em for the pictures, but I did let them know ill let "the right people" know about it 

 

from a scrap prospective, these things have f*ck all value because its mostly made out of fibre glass, so I cant see them charging too much for it hopefully 

 

 

Mmm, that's a good point and it's quite possible that these late Model 70s were GB vehicles that were brought over and then re-registered in NI.

 

Until the DVLNI was shut down a few years back and records transferred to DVLA in Swansea, re-registered cars weren't issued with age-related plates over here - just whatever was the next number in the current series. Hence when I bought a Cortina in Glasgow in 2008 (NJW605X) and had to re-register it in Belfast to tax it, I was given the option of either retaining its existing GB plate or being issued with a brand new NI one (UEZ****, if I recall). I preferred to keep the original X-reg plate.

 

1981 Ford Cortina 2.0 GL.jpg

 

If you want to know more about the NI registration system...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_the_United_Kingdom#Northern_Ireland

 

Basically, there's a 'root' code which is assigned to an office (say, OI for the Belfast office) and the series begins alphanumerically with AOI 1 and then scrolls through to AOI 9999; then flicks over to BOI 1, through to BOI 9999, then COI 1... etc etc.

 

It doesn't change year on year, just cycles through to the next as registrations are allocated. Once an office code is used up (YOI 9999 would have been the last of the OI series, as per the example above - Q and Z don't get used, though QNI was used for kit cars in the same manner as GB's Q suffix/prefix) then a new root code would be assigned (for Belfast, this new series started with AXI 1).

 

So one, two and three digit codes do exist, as per WOI 654, but there are naturally fewer of them and nowadays they're all cherry-picked and sold by DVLA as cherished numbers at source.

 

Years ago, you might have seen all manner of cars with a 'low number' whereby a dealer just happened to have been allocated a block at the point of change - I remember a shabby old Toyota Corolla banging about locally with TOI 3 on it. Usually big dealers like Charles Hurst held over 'good numbers' for their prestige cars or valued customers - so if you happened along to blow a wodge of cash on a new Ferrari or S-Class, you might come away with something plated SXI 5000 or MBZ 420, for example.

 

But yes - I'll go back and try to get some pics of that VIN, just to unravel the mystery a little!

 

very interesting stuff!

 

really cool to learn how the system works

[egg]

At least those pics confirm it as a Villiers 11E (197cc)

[LightBulbFun]

At least those pics confirm it as a Villiers 11E (197cc)

 

Yeah I THINK all of invacars offerings where Petrol only

 

with AC and Tippen Delta covering the electric powered "market" so to speak (with AC exiting the electric market after the Model 57, with the Model 67 being petrol only AFAIK)

 

(the Tippen Delta in electric form was the only other invalid carriage to remain in production when/after the Model 70 showed up as there was no Electric version of the Model 70)

 

it is worth noting too that there are several Mk12 versions, Like Mk12C and Mk12E, I dont know exactly what the difference is between everything, but I have read the Mk12E has a better front suspension setup from AC that the DHSS made invacar use... (Mk12E was the final form of Mk12, before they where discontinued in favour of the Model 70)

 

I wonder if a villiers expert could tell when the engine was made from that engine number, might give us some clue as to when this specific Mk12 was built and what revision it is

 

wondering, are you planning something? 

[egg]

Maybe just a crazy idea of at least dragging it down to my lock-up tidying it up and re-selling it, hopefully not losing a ton of money in the process. I mean - at least it would be saved right?

 

I don't know, I have enough on my plate really!

 

These guys could definitively ID the engine, I'm sure: http://www.villiersparts.co.uk/

[LightBulbFun]

Ohh sounds like a plan! at least yeah it would be saved (at least they are quite simple machines, so wont involve breaking all 100 plastic trim clips on some broken modern or such)

 

it would be cool to see some hot Mk12 action on here, maybe a shoot out with TWC at some point? 

 

let us know if anything goes anywhere

[egg]

LBF could you please do me a favour and ask him how much he wants for it, as you've already exchanged messages with him? That will soon answer whether there's the least mileage in it for me or anyone else?

 

Thanks if you can.

[LightBulbFun]

LBF could you please do me a favour and ask him how much he wants for it, as you've already exchanged messages with him? That will soon answer whether there's the least mileage in it for me or anyone else?

 

Thanks if you can.

 

No problem!

 

 

 

ill let you know here if/when he gets back to me

[mrbenn]

You're a bad influence LBF!!

[egg]

Thanks mate, it might well be over before it starts, but let's see eh?

[egg]

You're a bad influence LBF!!

 

Aye, LBF's diligence at keeping this thread on the boil is making me, and I expect others, have lots of strange 'spring project' thoughts

[mrbenn]

I won't disagree with that!

[LightBulbFun]

Haha

 

 

 

 

sluething once more and I managed to discover a colour photograph of this invacar

 

 

 

here

 

https://deskgram.net/p/1853635298152626938_1639640286

 

from only 6 months ago! so theres a good chance its still there

 

 

while it looks a bit too far gone for me sadly, id very much be interested in checking it out if I could teleport (I cant tell if the rear suspension has collapsed or its just a lose hub cap) 

 

it would probably make for a good spares car for OliD-E or Zel as the body work at least looks to be in good shape, might require some island hopping tho...

[captain_70s]

The Mk12 looks relatively fixable with a bit of skill. Fabricating a floor should be fairly easy as it's just big flat sections. A door could be fabricated with a basic frame and some sheet aluminium as it's a just a square shape with a single curve on a slider, perspex sheet for a window.

[Mrcento]

The Mk12 looks relatively fixable with a bit of skill. Fabricating a floor should be fairly easy as it's just big flat sections. A door could be fabricated with a basic frame and some sheet aluminium as it's a just a square shape with a single curve on a slider, perspex sheet for a window.

 

Just what i was thinking, it's one of those things that looks a lot, lot worse than it is.

 

There's nothing complex there, not much work to get a useable shell out of it..... In fact, the biggest challenge is likely to be loading/unloading what's left.

[egg]

Don't say that guys. I've been thinking the same, and if it's cheap, I'll have to buy it then.

 

Only on here would we look at that and go, yeah, viable mode of transport that!

[LightBulbFun]

The Mk12 looks relatively fixable with a bit of skill. Fabricating a floor should be fairly easy as it's just big flat sections. A door could be fabricated with a basic frame and some sheet aluminium as it's a just a square shape with a single curve on a slider, perspex sheet for a window.

 

exactly what im thinking especially after coming across this photo a while ago

 

(and just now spending far too long unearthing it!)

 

 

as you can see there really aint much to Mk12 invacars just a main spine of sorts with bits that stick out from that

 

(BTW IIRC Mk12s actually only have 1 door hence why you only ever see 1 missing LOL)

[somewhatfoolish]

The Mk12 looks relatively fixable with a bit of skill. Fabricating a floor should be fairly easy as it's just big flat sections. A door could be fabricated with a basic frame and some sheet aluminium as it's a just a square shape with a single curve on a slider, perspex sheet for a window.

Even if you wanted to keep it OE, a knackered door or a loaned door can act as a master; laminating a replacement isn't that difficult. If you can manage the application of wob, you can make a GRP panel.

[LightBulbFun]

Thanks mate, it might well be over before it starts, but let's see eh?

 

balls in your court

 

 

how much DO you want to pay for a hunk of 50 year old slightly mouldy fibreglass with an old motorbike engine strapped to the back and some ferrous oxide for seasoning?  (its like the creme brulee of cars  )

 

or as put by somewhatfoolish puts it

 

 

What sort of condition? Any pictures? Fins a-go-go, like a miniature Cadillac.

 

 

(they probably have no idea how to value their miniature 3 wheeled "Cadillac" themselves and tbf neither do I, i cant even figure out how a Model 70 is worth LOL!)

 

if I had to guess, if I was going for it, (ie if i already had a Model 70 and i had a workshop or something) id probably not offer any more then a couple hundred, I mean anything more then that, and its probably cheaper to just mould your own

 

in the mean time have this "sales brochure" to hopefully convince you 

 

 

 

(top speed is 45Mph apparently, as if that was not scary enough in a Model 70... and given how prevalent the villiers engine was I imagine it would not be hard to breath some more performance into it if you have completely lost it )

[egg]

Thanks LBF. I thought this might be the problem, they are quite attached to it, and as you say don't know what it is worth themselves (rare for a breakers!).

 

Probably the most likely way of getting it is turning up with a van and cash in person.

 

I'll have a think about the strategy...

[Mrcento]

they are quite attached to it,

it's lying on its side, floor rotting, door missing...

 

They don't give a s*** about it, it's nigh on worthless to them as scrap, they just don't know what it's worth and are hoping the interest means they'll strike gold.

 

They'll take what they can get for it (within reason) whilst they can still get anything for it.

[egg]

What would you offer Mr C?

[mrbenn]

Problem will be if the scrappy is one of those that knows the price or everything and the value of nothing.

 

I think in the region of £100-200 to take it as it stands would be fair, in a climate where £300 can buy a viable car with MOT.

[Mrcento]

What would you offer Mr C?

 

To be honest, i'd go in offering £75, expecting to be pushed up to around £90-100. Maybe £120 at a push.

 

That's way above what it's worth to them in raw scrap.

[captain_70s]

Knowing breakers I reckon they'll want £300+ for it. Any less and they'll not be bothered moving it for collection.

 

They know it's rare and to most people rare = valuable.

[LightBulbFun]

maybe its worth looking at their other items on the website and see if their priced reasonably?

 

£350 PT Cruiser? http://www.wafrost.co.uk/product/2004-chrysler-pt-cruiser-2-0-petrol/

 

might give you some idea if they if they are any good or not

 

just tell me what to send and try and not make me look like more than the complete tit I already am 

 

(never really done anything like this before, the most iv done is haggle with various lightbulb stores for cheaper lightbulbs...)

[mrbenn]

Knowing breakers I reckon they'll want £300+ for it. Any less and they'll not be bothered moving it for collection.

 

Wouldn't be in the least bit surprised.