Datsuncog's Heaps: Sept 2023 - Another Year's T-Met Exemption Certificate...

[Datsuncog]

Okay, well. I've been out to have a look. The usual IICGW,IWGW logic applied here in spades...

With 2 degrees centrigrade registering outside, my first job is to squeeze into the shed to retrieve the trolley jack, axle stands and wooden blocks (to avoid creasing the sill weld when lifting). Naturally, the blocks are nowhere to be found. No bother, thinks I - a new set shouldn't take too long to whip up with some offcuts and a bowsaw.

Snag the first:

With formalities over and the Gods of Shite hopefully pacified with a blood sacrifice, I finish the notched blocks and go out to lift the car.

Snag the second:

Not enough space for both trolley jack and notched wooden block together.

But! Not one to be daunted, the obvious solution is to raise the car a bit using the scissor jack, then use the trolley jack the rest of the way up.

So, into the boot to retrieve the original fitment emergency jack.

The spare has plenty of tread and holds its pressure well, which is better than about 85% of my spare wheels. Looks like it's unused, pretty much.

The previous giffer owner even lined the wheel well with potato sacks to protect the tyre and paint. Aw, cute.

BONUS SNAG: No wait, he lined it with potato sacks to conceal the fucking hole in the boot floor when numpties like me came to view it. SURPRISE!!! And to think I reckoned this car was grot free. Even the RN doesn't have holes like this, and it's a shed. (Literally, at the minute)

Right, the jack. Or rather, 95% of the jack. Where's the all-important plastic locator bracket? No idea. Snag the third.

Okay, deep breath. I know the jack in the back of the silver Laguna RN to be 100% (although this one actually belongs to another Laguna I bought for bits a few years ago). I'll use that.

Okay, the boot won't open. It's about 5mm from the trailer tyre, which is trapped against the back fence. Snag the fourth.

That's alright, I'll move the RN forward a bit. Nope. Snag the fifth.

I make an optimistic effort to start it, but it cranks unhappily and won't catch, as usual. Attempts to shove it forward produce graunching from the rear, but no forward movement. Because I'm an idiot, I left the handbrake on when I last parked the RN in August. I hadn't intended to lay it up; but it immediately failed to start once I acquired the green RT, and hasn't budged since. The rear shoes are now solid. I would jack it up and hammer them off, but... oh yeah, the jack's in the boot.

As a delightful aside, the RN's interior appears to have become some sort of fiendish testing lab for bacterial warfare.

Maybe take the trailer wheel off? Nope. Unlike the silver RN, the 10" Mini wheels spin beautifully on the hub, despite 5 years of neglect. Attempts to jam the wheel to allow the wheelbrace to do its stuff are fruitless. Snag the sixth (or is this a continuation of Snag the fourth? I'm losing count).

Fine. I'll crawl into the boot and retrieve the jack that way. Because this is a povo spec car, it doesn't have a split rear seat.

 

 

Out comes all the crap I've stuffed into the RN since I last drove it in August - revealing lots and lots of water in the rear footwell, and yet more biohazard. This is Not Good. I was fully intending to get this car running again and move it on to someone who might enjoy its shameless poverty-spec credentials, but it seems to be rotting from the inside out.

I try to remove the rear shelf, but it won't budge. Snag the seventh (or is this the eighth now?) Despite being broken on one side, the bugger wont shift unless the boot's open. So I climb into the boot space, and try to raise the wooden cover to the spare wheel well.

Of course it won't open fully with the shelf in place. Of course. Snag the eleventy-twelfth.

I get out, go round the back, pop the boot, shove my (cold, bleeding) hand up between the two inches the trailer will afford me, and after much banging and swearing, manage to knock the shelf to one side. RESULT!

Up comes the spare wheel cover. Fucking hell, it's all a bit Underwater Explorers down there. (Stopped counting snags by now)

A flat, mouldy tyre? Brilliant. I'm past caring.

Here's what we've come to see. The bastarding jack. The rubber band holding it down doesn't much want to move in the sub-Arctic conditions*, but I persuade it. I can be persuasive, me.

At last. A functional jack. Guess which one's going back into the daily?

So eventually, green car up, wheel off - finally. Let's have a good look at the problem.

Well, it appears that something has been lost in translation.

Contrary to what the fella in the fast-fit place seemed to be telling me yesterday, there is no wheel bolt shaft buried in the hub.

Instead there's evidence that long, long ago, a wheel bolt shaft got sheared off in the hub. But it looks like it was drilled out, mostly. The pics don't show it too well, but there bolt hole is mostly smooth with curls of steel protruding from the rusty sides, which I assume to be the original threads from the bolt still in situ. 

So this baby's been running on three bolts for a long, long time. Pathetically, I offer up one of the good wheel bolts, in the forlorn hope it'll magically catch and screw in like a dream.

It doesn't.

But! At least this may avoid having to remove the hub and have it pillar drilled, and all the faffage with hub pullers, joint splitters and a 50/50 chance of wrecking the wheel bearing on removal.

So am I right in thinking that, as a short term measure, the hub could potentially be re-threaded in situ, and a larger bolt put in? Of course, I looked at a tap and die kit in Lidl only a few weeks ago, but didn't buy it as I didn't need one. Irony at work. They're all gone now.

Or should I just start comparing monthly payments on a Dacia Sandero, and spend winter in the house like a normal* person?

Advice and opinion gratefully received.

[SiC]

Given the weather and the need to get the car on the road, it's this sort of time I'd chuck it towards a garage to just get it fixed. Still should be less than 2 months payments on a base spec Dacia.

[Tickman]

Is the current hole too small for one of the other wheel bolts? 

 

Just wondering if the correct sized tap was run through it would it clean the material that is in the threads. The broken bolt may not have been drilled out fully.

[Datsuncog]

On 11/26/2017 at 2:43 PM, Tickman said:

Is the current hole too small for one of the other wheel bolts?

Just wondering if the correct sized tap was run through it would it clean the material that is in the threads. The broken bolt may not have been drilled out fully.

Yep, it is too small - I was wondering whether or not I could run a tap through it. While it might not restore the thread to as-new, it'd be better than its current state...

I'm just kinda surprised, as the former owner was an ex-aircraft engineer with an enviable home workshop... I would have thought tapping the hole after drilling would have been the obvious thing to do.

[Hendry]

When my dearly beloved and missed wife were first together, just bought our house etc and money was a tad tight, we used to deal old motors. Had much fun as a part time job instead of full time and we both had a right laugh going to auctions and buying stuff, chatting up the burger van ladies and getting EVERYTHING on a bun for sweet F.A. at closing time. Also, 'cos the wife was what is commonly known as a 'bit of a looker' she could play dumb (she wasn't) and charm dealers into giving her the good (or bad) word on stuff they were punting thru... never underestimate the value of a decent bit of skirt when dealing with the motor trade!

 

Anywho, one fine day (night actually) we were at Saltash and she was chatting to a dealer who suggested the Safrane and Citroen he had just brought in were both 'jolly decent velocipedes' so we bought them both.

 

The Safrane was a 1 owner RXE and about 4 years old and the Xantia was a high spec thing, similar age and also 1 owner. Both were under 30K miles and looked clean and straight, sounded good and so were bought.

 

The problem came later: we both LOVED them both! They were both utterly brilliant cars and we wanted to keep one or the other but couldn't decide which one to keep, so advertised them both for 'silly money' and would keep whichever didn't sell.

 

Of course, they both sold on the same day for full whack and our lass was (nearly) distraught at the loss of her two favourite cars. I was sort of saddened but glad to have made lots of folding stuff, which did soften the blow rather!

 

What got me though was how cheap they were! Neither was close to a grand when shit Vectras and Mundanos were several times that for older, leggier examples - everyone shied away from them and there was hardly any bidding. I thought I'd bought badly, but later events proved otherwise and they both sold easily. Never had another Safrane but we did get another Xantia later which was a bit older and a tad tired and emotional but was still a great car for £300 and sold for an easy profit. I have always liked older French stuff but, the newer gear... forget it!

Jeeso, a grand for a 4 year old Xantia and Safrane!! I recall about 2002 a local Citroen Dealer, formerly a Renault Dealer, had a 7 year old 95 N Safrane up for £5490, and several 4 year old low spec Forte and LX and Sensation spec Xantias at £5495 aswell!

[twosmoke300]

The if shell of the old bolt is still in there you may be able to pick it out with a thin punch or chisel

[Tickman]

The pics don't show it too well, but there bolt hole is mostly smooth with curls of steel protruding from the rusty sides

 

 

The curls of steel are possibly the thread off the old wheel bolt, if you can pick at these with a scriber or something you might be able to clear the thread, if you can get some of it clear you could make a rough tap out of an old wheel bolt from the 'spares' car.

[Tickman]

A couple of pictures here to give you an idea on making a tap out of a bolt.

 

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/making-taps-187694/

[Guest Hooli]

Wot they all said ^^

 

If that doesn't work, drilling out further & a thread insert like isn't a huge job.

[Datsuncog]

Right - 51pc tap and die set procured from Screwfix. Irritatingly, there's no specs online about what sizes are included - and it seems the biggest tap is M12 size. The 1.5 thread gauge looks about right, but I think the bolts are bigger than M12. Hmm. Will have a closer look when I get home. There's a chance that I might be able to pick up a larger tap tomorrow, if needed.

But the sides of the existing bolthole are just smooth, slightly corrosion-covered metal, with no threads in evidence other than a few curls that (as suggested) are likely the remains of the original bolt threads. I doubt it'd be possible to pick out the damaged bits of thread - but the tapping's a possibility. There's three locking wheel bolts in a box in the boot, with the right shoulder profile for the alloys - if I'm lucky, one of these may do the job.

Cheers for all your suggestions, folks! Very much appreciated.

[Pillock]

So does a good wheelbolt just slide in and out of the hole, or is the thread bigger?

Seems crazy that the ex owner engineer would look at three wheelbolts and go "aaah, it'll be right"

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Try getting a spare bolt, cut two shallow slots on opposite sides of it with a slitting disc in your grinder and see if it will 're thread' your hole. I'm gonna rate your chances at 33 1/3%, but it'll cost nowt. Most modernish wheel bolts seem to be M14 X 1.5 by the way.

[Datsuncog]

On 11/26/2017 at 6:02 PM, Pillock said:

So does a good wheelbolt just slide in and out of the hole, or is the thread bigger?

A good bolt won't go in at all - it looks like whoever drilled it out (I'm going to blame blokey) used a bit that was smaller than the overall bolt size, hence what's left being an unholy mess of threaded wheel hub and bits of bolt threads - but which is now a crusty mess. At the time of drilling, I would have thought the remains of the bolt could have been easily enough removed while everything was still shiny, but it's now almost impossible to tell where the hub ends and the fragments of dead bolt begin, apart from a few slight curls protruding.

The good news is that this should* be rethreadable to standard bolt size using a tap, in principle.

The less good news is my cheapo no-name £25 tap and die set only goes up to M12 size - and after offering up one of the good wheel bolts for size, the bolts appear to be bigger than M12. Not much bigger, but definitely bigger. So that's been rather kicked into touch for the night.

[Pillock]

Well at least that's better than dicking around with oversized bolts and stuff. Slots in the wheelbolt is worth a go, because you know that's the right thread to start with.

[beko1987]

Blimey top marks for perseverance! I'd have set fire to something long ago!

 

Can't help with your tap issue though. I've got a tap and die of my grandads that I borrowed to re tap the knackered bolts on my green zx's various hubs. Never did, just tweaked the wheel bolts up, or occasionally fitted a new one which dug in enough for a few times before stripping itself...

[Guest Hooli]

If the wheel bolt with slots doesn't work & it might well not as it's not hardened like a tap. Then take a wheel bolt to a proper tool shop & they'll make it to a tap.

[Datsuncog]

On 11/26/2017 at 6:19 PM, Mr_Bo11ox said:

Try getting a spare bolt, cut two shallow slots on opposite sides of it with a slitting disc in your grinder and see if it will 're thread' your hole. I'm gonna rate your chances at 33 1/3%, but it'll cost nowt. Most modernish wheel bolts seem to be M14 X 1.5 by the way.

I'd had a bash (almost literally) earlier on using a bolt from the other car, a wheelnut socket and a t-bar, to see if I could force the rust and swarf out with another thread, but no dice. My grinder came to an unfortunate end last year when I made the mistake of lending it to my cousin, and I declined to replace it at the time thinking "I can always get one quickly and cheaply if I need one" (words now ringing hollowly in my mind on a Sunday evening) - but otherwise that is an excellent suggestion.

The current bolts are indeed M14 - were they M12 on older metal? The seem fatter than the studs on my '81 Cortina, say. There's a city centre tool store round the corner from work, which is not cheap but is pretty well stocked, and I might see if they can provide me with an M14 tap. Then a dash home from work later, an attempt to rethread the damaged hub bolt hole by torchlight (chances of success: probably less than Monsieur Bo11ox's generous 33.333%), and then a frantic dash over to the test centre, to watch it fail... 

Isn't this exciting??

[Guest Hooli]

 

 

Isn't this exciting??

 

I'm enjoying it a lot more online than if it was me in your place.

[bramz7]

WTF is causing that mould? 

 

Anyway, as I didn't just come here to post the above comment, have this mega early Laguna I saw in Milan a few months back:

 

1994 Renault Laguna RXE. by Sam Osbon, on Flickr

 

Also saw a ropey P reg RT Automatic today. Yes, I took a photo.

[richbraith]

Definitely do that. The old lad who sold me the green one was all set to scrap it, but thought he'd give it a last chance on AutoTrader first as he felt a sentimental attachment to it. One of the admins on the Shite Cars For Sale FB page flagged it to me as it was only down the road, and I damn near bit his arm off for £325. If he'd figured it wasn't worth the hassle, or was less handy with a digital camera, I've no doubt it'd be on the slow boat to China about now, in a million little bits.

 

The interior on mine has worn fairly well, other than the driver's seat stitching, and I reckon the plastics generally feel good quality on the Laguna - miles better than the preceding generation of Renaults. A friend had a few R19s and they were nowhere near as nice inside, while the R5 - just no. Compared to the contemporary Vectra and Mondeo, the Lag dash's and seats still look pretty fresh. I love the drop-down flap over the stereo and DIN cubby, too.

That would be me then I do love a mk1 Laguna.

[richbraith]

KGF have one at the moment...a very rare mk1 ph1 with the 2.0S 16v, 45k miles and one old boy owner.  It's £1495, which seems a lot for a Laguna but if I had it they may well still get my business (if...).

[SiC]

That one has been steadily reduced!

[Datsuncog]

On 11/26/2017 at 2:20 PM, SiC said:

Given the weather and the need to get the car on the road, it's this sort of time I'd chuck it towards a garage to just get it fixed. Still should be less than 2 months payments on a base spec Dacia.

Well indeed... I've taken most of my cars to the same garage for a while to do any work I don't have the skillz/tools/inclination to complete successfully, but they've taken to charging A Lot More of late. There aren't that many garages locally, and none that come across as particularly shite-friendly. Much as I like it, this wagon's already cost me more in three months than the other Laguna cost me in three years... and finding that unexpected hole in the boot floor has given me The Fear, too. It may well be a garage job yet, but I'll see if I can get it sorted out before calling in the professionals!

[Datsuncog]

On 11/26/2017 at 7:47 PM, beko1987 said:

Blimey top marks for perseverance! I'd have set fire to something long ago!

Can't help with your tap issue though. I've got a tap and die of my grandads that I borrowed to re tap the knackered bolts on my green zx's various hubs. Never did, just tweaked the wheel bolts up, or occasionally fitted a new one which dug in enough for a few times before stripping itself...

Oddly enough, my grandfather also had a whole load of taps and dies (no doubt the property of the now defunct machine engineering company he worked for). I donated them all to a railway preservation society last year, as they were all imperial - but now wondering if one of those might have done the job... 

[Datsuncog]

On 11/26/2017 at 9:08 PM, Hooli said:

I'm enjoying it a lot more online than if it was me in your place.

Ah now... isn't the difference between tragedy and comedy meant to be whether it's happening to you, or happening to some other poor bastard?

Honestly though, putting down the ridiculousness of it all on this forum helps me hold my temper together considerably better than I might otherwise.

[Tickman]

... they were all imperial - but now wondering if one of those might have done the job... 

No they wouldn't.

[Datsuncog]

On 11/26/2017 at 9:35 PM, bramz7 said:

WTF is causing that mould? 

Anyway, as I didn't just come here to post the above comment, have this mega early Laguna I saw in Milan a few months back:

1994 Renault Laguna RXE. by Sam Osbon, on Flickr

Also saw a ropey P reg RT Automatic today. Yes, I took a photo.

Cor, a '94 model! Now that's rare...

Mould seems to be coming from combination of a dodgy rear doorseal, and being parked up the side of the house where the sun never shines. I'm going to have to do summat about that, mould and mildew are not good things and the back footwell is actually swimming.

[Datsuncog]

On 11/26/2017 at 10:47 PM, richbraith said:

That would be me then I do love a mk1 Laguna.

Heh, it is indeed... all thanks for the tip-off, hope to be able to repay the favour one day! That KGF one does look pretty good, though they've dropped £400 off it since last week, so... who knows how low it'll go? Decent cars though, and getting quite scarce - I know I can go a few weeks now without seeing another, and they used to be everywhere.

[paulplom]

I had a citroen ax that only had 3 wheel bolts. I wouldn't worry too much about your 'extra' one.

[Datsuncog]

On 11/27/2017 at 4:13 AM, paulplom said:

I had a citroen ax that only had 3 wheel bolts. I wouldn't worry too much about your 'extra' one.

Going by how it rusty the empty hole looks, I'd say that about half of this car's 121k may have been completed with only three bolts on the front n/s wheel... which is both terrifying and faintly reassuring.