Serious (no, really!) group purchase suggestion: Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire, or summat else

[Alexg]

That Armstrong Siddeley ad is about 2 years old sadly

[Guest Breadvan72]

Majority shareholder and responsible for storage no doubt!

 

 

Also tax, pez, parking fines, and Ginsters.

[Guest Breadvan72]

That Armstrong Siddeley ad is about 2 years old sadly

 

 

A poster above suggests that it dates from last September, but in any event we shall have to wait for another one to pop up.

[Inspector Morose]

May I be bold enough to suggest?

 

Bear with me here. It's a 56 four cylinder with the early front design yet the later rear window. It gets better.

 

It is one of only 97 RHD export cars to be produced that year. Who knows why it never was exported.

 

It can be had for a lot less than the sapphire. In fact 2k will buy it.

 

Just sayin' luyke.

[red5]

That's lovely. Ah crap, now I'm in the thread.

 

Fronterror anyone?

[Guest Breadvan72]

I will ring the ad number momentarily, to confirm that the jalope did indeed sell a while back.  [EDIT: yes, it did - went to a bloke in Kent.]

 

As JM says, the thing to do is to wait for the right car to come along.

 

Although I sort of like 50s and early 60s Rovers, I don't think that I want one enough to do the groupobuy thing around one.

 

My thinking is that we aim for something from the 50s that is quite stately but also usable. The further back we go (40s, 30s), the more expensive the junkers are, and the more faffy the technology of keeping them going.  Moving into the 60s may be just possible, but I've sort of done 60s.

 

We could of course group up around a Silver Shadow or summat, but that isn't, I think, quite special enough to make me want to do the project.  

 

I fancy something that almost no other fuggah has got.   Endlessly saying to people at pez stations "No, it's not a Bentley/Jag/Daimler/Horseley Horseless/Ford Cortina/whatever. It's an Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire" would be part of the fun.

 

Conclusion: wait for an AS to come up.  I would not rule out that Whitely, but it may be that only Skiz and I think it acceptable, and I agree that black is not its best colour.

[richardmorris]

no reserve at Duxford at the end of next month.

 

 

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C830169

 

 

 

 

Details

- Offered from the estate of the late Sir Colin Hope who was a former President of the SMMT (1991-93), Trustee of the National Motor Museum (1991-2002), and Patron of the Armstrong Siddeley Heritage Trust from 2011

Arguably the most exotic Armstrong Siddeley ever produced, the Siddeley Special was unveiled at the 1932 Olympia Motor Show. Fabricated from aircraft-grade Hiduminium alloy, its 5 litre straight-six engine was notably smooth and powerful. Available with a variety of open and closed coachwork, the Siddeley Special was among the best performing luxury cars of its generation. As well as the choice of two wheelbase lengths, the Mark II version also ushered in a host of detail improvements including twin SU carburettors. Of the 253 Siddeley Specials made, just 30 or so are known to have survived to the present day.

Initially serving as a factory demonstrator, chassis 3418 was sold to its first private keeper, Sir George Shirtcliffe, on 5th September 1936. Resident in the Antipodes for most of its life, the Touring Limousine was repatriated by the late Sir Colin Hope during winter 1998 and reissued with its original UK number plate, 'BWK 256', the following year. Seemingly never allowed to deteriorate to the point of needing restoration, the Siddeley Special is understood to have been mechanically overhauled whilst in Australia. More recent work has included a brake system overhaul. Apparently complete, the Special is in fair cosmetic order. Running and driving when photographed during late October 2016, it will nonetheless require recommissioning prior to road use.

[Guest Breadvan72]

Fab, but surely will go for megabucks?

[Cavcraft]

Easy for me to suggest (as I probably won't be involved, soz) but surely the most Autoshite car to buy would be some obscure, weird or now rare 1970's or 80's car?

As lovely as I'm sure a 50's Rover or that other thing is, they're a bit 'Practical Classics' imho. Just my personal opinion.

[Guest Breadvan72]

I am open to ideas for something well nutty.

 

I take your Practical Cardigans point, but I have never gone 50s, and sort of fancy doing so. 50s Rovers are too far across the PC line, I think.  Too family doctor.

 

Years ago I suggested to some fellow bazzers that we form a group around some 70s or 80s Ferrari or Maserati when those still cost 20K or so, but no takers.  Now they are out of reach.

 

Totally different from AS Saph, I but would consider a Lancia Fulvia or 70s/80s Alfa groupocar. These remain within reach if costs shared.

[Skizzer]

I'm a bit with Cavcraft on this, I don't want something that would fit in well in Classic & Sportscar. (Practically Borassic is actually quite a bit more eclectic, not least thanks to our own Sam Glover.) A slightly scruffy, non-weddingy Armstrong Siddeley would pass muster as it's a bit overlooked.  

 

70s/80s Alfa you say?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alfa-Romeo-Sprint-1-5-Green-Cloverleaf-QV-/222412759748

 

Or, with added beige and 1300-ness:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Fulvia-Coupe-/112293745224

[Guest Breadvan72]

Those have TEH GUDNEZ

[Guest Breadvan72]

Not so keen on LHD if the car is sporty, as might want to overtake a giffer occasionally.  I did manage it when I had a Murena, so maybe no biggie.

[Skizzer]

Aye.  Fulvias are also lovely but a bit obvious.  I mostly like the beige on that one.

 

Needz moar obscure.  Still kicking myself for missing that £5k RHD Studebaker GT Hawk that came up a couple of years ago.

 

 

WHOA, hang on, what about this?

 

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C826548

 

Where do I sign?  Seriously, WHERE DO I SIGN?

[Skizzer]

Over-excited.

[Longblackcoat]

Lancia yes, Alfa no, Lotus abso-fucking-lutely no way. The interiors of the Elite/Eclat/Excel/Esprit are universally grim.

[Guest Breadvan72]

I love Lotuses, and have had six of the foogaz, and that one looks OK, but having had an Eclat, I can tell you that Elites and Eclats are not the best of Lotuses to keep running.  They do drive very well, however, and have great 70sness.    Interior very Marmite.

 

I would have a pop at that if we split it say 4 ways.

 

The Sapphire idea is of something to drive only occasionally.  I would want to drive the Lotus ALL THE TIME.

 

Every now and then a late Lotus Excel SE comes up.  Very usable if in good nick.  Interior much better than early ones.

[Skizzer]

I could be talked into an Excel.  You're probably right about keeping an Elite happy, I suppose.

 

But help me understand what's grim about this interior?

 

 

SO MUCH WANT.  

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

One thing to consider is  A.S. used asbestos to insulate the bulkhead on some models.

[Guest Breadvan72]

A good Elite, as this one seems to be, can be OK to live with, and the price is fair.  I love the interior, but see why some do not.  NB the dash switches were fitted by people without opposable thumbs, but that is WIN for me

 

The Eclat I bought was a shonker.

 

Late Excels are very sorted.

[Longblackcoat]

I could be talked into an Excel. You're probably right about keeping an Elite happy, I suppose.

 

But help me understand what's grim about this interior?

 

 

SO MUCH WANT.

.

 

Instruments, headlining, pretty much anything you touch, generally terrible fix/fit. They drive well (though the gearbox can be shit) but I just can't get over the view from behind the wheel. It's worse than a Granada, ferchrissakes.

[DSdriver]

LOTUS - Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious.

I quite like the idea of driving something like that first AS and I probably have the stake money.

What is making me twitchy is I have only done part ownership once (a business) and that did not go at all well, the maintenance fund could need a rich aunt to support it which I haven't got, and the weather would be horrible when it was my turn to use it. And I live in Kent but have not seen that one pottering around the lanes so its probably awaiting a weldathon.

[richardmorris]

Lotus not doing it for me I'm afraid - I have a sports car and don't want another. The 420 Daimlers referred to earlier are always going to look like a funeral or wedding car depending on colour. The rovers and austins just too humdrum. Now if only we could find an Isotta Fraschini in budget!

[PiperCub]

Gents, if you want to go down the shared ownership route you'll need to do it properly or it'll be a world of pain and angst I assure you. This is definately the case in the world of shared light aircraft ownership as the OP alludes to, I've seen a few groups break up acrimoniously because of fights over money (mainly), ownership, who's in charge, maintenance, usage, the list goes on. 

 

You need a clear understanding of all aspects of the above no matter how well people get on initially. 

 

I co-own a Cessna 150 aircraft (don't know what that is? Think of the aero equivilent of a Mk1 Fiesta 1.0 litre base model with no options) with about ten other guys:

We each bought a share (about £1500 for me at the time) which you get back when you sell. It is up to you to sell it on and get your money back. 

We pay £50 a month whether you fly many times or not at all - fixed costs, pays for parking on the airfield, landing fees, maintenance etc.

We pay £60 per flight hour for what we do, if we have to put fuel in that gets deducted from this rate.

 

There are no real restrictions on use, it's all booked online. I'm lucky, I live less than 20ml from the field so can go regularly (weather permitting!). So it helps if all are local so get equal chances of use. 

 

It works well in our group as everyone is on the same page and have been around a long time, that's why I picked it over others. That is essential in any shared ownership scheme, the resonsibility is everybodys, not you a few, if you get people who don't give a shit and have a 'Someone else can do that' mentality, it'll fall apart in no time, I've seen it happen.

 

I believe the boating world is similar though I don't know anyone who does this with boats personally. 

[Uncle Jimmy]

Interested me.

I think if 4/5/6 people are in on it we'd all need to be able to get in it! If the HQ is to be central southern England then it would suit me.

I do think an agreement would have to be set up; I should think there would be a legal template for that.....rather like owning a very elderly racehorse. Sorry if it sounds boring but I've known several 'agreements' of this sort turn a tad nasty, so a written agreement is a prerequisite.

[Guest Breadvan72]

LOTUS - Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious.

I quite like the idea of driving something like that first AS and I probably have the stake money.

What is making me twitchy is I have only done part ownership once (a business) and that did not go at all well, the maintenance fund could need a rich aunt to support it which I haven't got, and the weather would be horrible when it was my turn to use it. And I live in Kent but have not seen that one pottering around the lanes so its probably awaiting a weldathon.

 

Standard pub comments aside, the reality is that some Lotuses are terrible and some are great.  Because old cars.  I have owned two fab Lotuses, two middling ones, and two bad ones.

 

A business partnership is a very different thing to a few like minded types owning a mouldy machine for fun, with no view to profit.  A business share is closer to a marriage, with much more at stake.  

[Guest Breadvan72]

Interested me.

I think if 4/5/6 people are in on it we'd all need to be able to get in it! If the HQ is to be central southern England then it would suit me.

I do think an agreement would have to be set up; I should think there would be a legal template for that.....rather like owning a very elderly racehorse. Sorry if it sounds boring but I've known several 'agreements' of this sort turn a tad nasty, so a written agreement is a prerequisite.

 

 

A concise and clearly expressed written agreement is essential.  Avoid templates, as using boilerplate is a recipe for arguments. I cannot offer car fixing skills, but I can offer agreement drafting skills.  

[Uncle Jimmy]

A VDP 4L, 105 Westie, Bentley mk4, Alvis TA (nice shooting brake coming up at auction in Dorset soon), 40s Yank Saloon, Humber Imperial (Monty) are the kind of mob vehicles that spring to mind.

[richardmorris]

A colleague of my dad had an eclat in the 1980s. Braked heavily once when some kids ran across the road and the windscreen fell out. Didn't break though! So he duck taped it back on.

[Guest Breadvan72]

I have been a member of two aircraft ownership groups (a Cap 10b and a Beagle Pup), and both were well run and avoided arguments.  If the agreement is clear and people are sensible, problems tend not to arise.  A clear agreement helps to promote sensibleness, and can contain provisions for what to do in the hopefully unlikely event of a dispute.