When is being insured not being insured?

[RustyNuts]

Chances are the police won't waste time while you go home looking for the policy. They'll impound the car, then it's £300 to get it back, whether or not you are covered or not, if you haven't got the policy to hand you are fucked!

 

They tend not to like me a great deal.

 

I had a copper neighbour moons ago.. he weren't a bad bloke to be honest but just totally miserable everytime we spoke and he clearly thought of me as some sort of lower life form because we "rented" and so that was that. He was handy though.. well not handy.. but i could always work out the status of our neighbourly relationship by asking him something traffic / car related. It got to a point where everytime I spoke to him I could be guaranteed some form of police action in the next day or two. Such as driving to work one day and finding myself being tailed by a copper.. nothing unusual in that except my neighbour knew my speedo was a bit buggered - as long as you tapped it, it would free up but then stick again. Anyhow plod ends up behind me the next day (you know.. one of those young I rule the world aggressive types) and so with a bit of quick thinking I noticed the farm shop coming up. Hit the indicators and turned off down the farm track. As I looked in the rearview mirror, plod was just sitting there in the road (with traffic behind him) watching me going down the farm track. He was clearly mulling over whether he had grounds to come after me on private property or not.. and he clearly couldn't accidentally find the speedo like that without it becoming clear where that tipoff came from. After a long 5-6 seconds (by this time I've hit the brakes and tried to tempt him lol) he's decided to slowly pull away and carry on.

 

Then there was the ANPR squad who would turn up at the top of the estate within a day or two of neighbourly contact. Now that was scary shit. Everytime I'd pull out of the housing estate they'd be there at main road at eachend at each roundabout. They'd be sat right in the middle of the road too on the chevrons and I would get nothing but evil stares as I'd pull out. We had two identical cars at the time.. one was SORN, one was on the road and it was quite clear they were looking to try and bust me for moving a SORN'd car. My missus claimed I was being paranoid and stupid until I made a bet with her that I could make the ANPR / traffic squad turn up just by asking the neighbour some dodgy sounding question. A point I managed to prove several times with ease.. she then accepted it. Another neighbour also complained that he was getting tugged regularly on his way to and from work.

 

Purely by coincidence, I did get tugged once in a different county for no insurance. I had arranged it on the phone the same day but the incompetant wankers at MIB (that the motor insurance beureau not men in black lol) couldn't update their systems the same day despite being able to handle millions of police enquiries. End result was I got clocked by a passing patrol car on a petrol station forecourt and then tugged down the highway. Anyway this copper was determined he was going to nail me for no insurance. Unfortunately for him not only am I not fucking stupid (as my neighbour clearly thought), I'm also usually a step ahead due to the paranoia - I'll see threats and situations happening before they do - if they ever do - and it's taught me to cover my back very well and be ready for any question with pre-prepared answers. So there we were, plod was giving me a grilling, i'm explaining the extension on my policy, he's refusing to accept it, i've broken it down for him into tiny little step by step bits to understand... and then the penny dropped.. he wasn't messing with an idiot and when i mentioned a mate being degree qualified in motor insurance underwriting he realised he was onto a loser. At that point he wanted me out of the car faster than he could threaten a cell for the night with butch. I refused to get out and told him i wanted a receipt for being tugged so that I'd got his full details, date, time, location etc. The bloke nearly shit a brick and then he really did start threatening to nick me lol - for wasting police time. My reply? I've not wasted police time if i've just been helping him with his enquiries and i'm now waiting for official paperwork to make sure it's all above board. He eventually persuaded me out of his car, got in it only to find me stood right in front of it refusing to move lol.

 

And yes.. I have been known to carry my insurance policy documents, certificate of insurance, T&Cs and driving licence in the past just in case they decided to nab me on the way to the MOT station or into the first few days of a policy etc. Like I said, they tend not to like me... especially when I can become very "technical" about their service and pick holes in their allegations... LOL

 

Despite all that, I've nothing against the old bill really, over the years they've looked out for me in many ways, I just accept that they have a few loose canons in their employment.

[martybabes]

My Direct Line Certificate of Insurance says this:
"The Policyholder may also drive with the owner's permission a motor car not owned by the policyholder and not hired or leased to the Policyholder under a hire purchase or annual leasing agreement"

 

As I read this (wearing my solicitor's hat) I see that I am insured to drive another person's motor car (not van or lorry)(and it could include my wife's car [if I had a wife]) provided the motor car (not van or lorry) is not owned by me but I have the owner's permission to drive it.  It does not require that motor car (not van or lorry) to be separately insured elsewhere.  if it was so required then it would say so.  It isn't, so it doesn't.

 

As for my SAGA policy, this says, under persons or classes of person entitled to drive:

The policyholder and (named driver) may also drive with the consent of the owner a motor car not owned by and not hired under a hire-purchase or self-drive hire agreement to the policyholder or (named driver).

 

However, and interestingly, the certificate goes on to say:
Any person driving in the event of a medical or motor emergency involving the policyholder and/or spouse/domestic partner, with the policyholder's permission.

 

Again, wearing my official hat, I would say I am entitled to drive, with the owner's permission, a car that doesn't itself have to be separately insured.

[RustyNuts]

Yup, same in the policy document too:

 

 

 

 

Infact they've made that even easier than ever to understand and I'll bet that their staff will still swear blind the car needs it's own insurance. I've had this spat with DL so many times over the years. The policy document used to be a bit more complex than the above with the way it was worded but they've simplified it in the latest revision.

[Eddie Honda]

In the good old days Norwich Union (that's Aviva for the kids) used to say on car policies "any car (or motorcycle)". Great stuff.

[lisbon_road]

Oooh.  So according to Rusty Nuts contribution, if your car is written off, you couldn't get in someone else's a drive it.  On that policy anyway.

[John F]

There's no mention of a car having to have its own insurance policy in the small print of my Footman James / Ageas multicar policy either - just an entitlement to drive other cars with the owner's permission.

[Cavcraft]

Norwich Union motorbike policies were legendary. You could ride any bike up to whatver class your's was in (250-350cc, for example, imho) so you could swap and chose as much as you liked.

[Eddie Honda]

Had one of those Rider policies too. Kept it for a while after they closed new business on them, but eventually had to sack it off as they cranked the renewals up.

[RustyNuts]

Oooh.  So according to Rusty Nuts contribution, if your car is written off, you couldn't get in someone else's a drive it.  On that policy anyway.

 

And incidentally you're in a sticky situation with welding, grinding and anything that might change the original chassis slightly - even if it is to fix it:

 

[PiperCub]

Had one of those Rider policies too. Kept it for a while after they closed new business on them, but eventually had to sack it off as they cranked the renewals up.

 

My first bike policy was one of these too! Cost £32 for a year under 100cc, (I was a 19y/old, clean full car licence 2 years, provisional bike and yes, that was thirty years ago). 

[PiperCub]

Does anyone know the definitive answer for this one?

 

I can drive other peoples' cars third party on my insurance legally, does the other car HAVE to have an insurance policy itself?  I have had different answers from insurance companies, perhaps we have someone from the boys in blue on here who would know for sure.  If I was stopped because the car was not on the insurance database is it enough to say 'I can drive other cars on my policy?'

 

I have seen this 'vehicle must have third party insurance by owner'-type wording on previous Admiral policies and I'm sure it's on my Carole Nash policies too.

 

To deviate slightly, as this seems to be the established way of things now I have a question - Has this always been the case? Whether it was known about pre-ANPR days or not? 

 

The reason I ask is that in my dim and distant past when at college and uni, I used to do alot of car trading (& a few bikes), buying from auctions, fix them up, clean them up and sell them on, (it was fun & a great money-maker in the 80's/90's) and that's how I and everyone else used to drive our purchases around. You had a drive any cars policy so you kept the logbook in the previous owners name or registered it to someone (I usualy reg'd it to my dad) and drove around covered for 3rd party only.

So was I actually covered or was I breaking the law all that time? I never had any issues but I hate the thought of driving uninsured and am the first to slag off those that do! 

[Faker]

The reason I ask is that in my dim and distant past when at college and uni, I used to do alot of car trading (& a few bikes), buying from auctions, fix them up, clean them up and sell them on, (it was fun & a great money-maker in the 80's/90's) and that's how I and everyone else used to drive our purchases around. You had a drive any cars policy so you kept the logbook in the previous owners name or registered it to someone (I usualy reg'd it to my dad) and drove around covered for 3rd party only.

So was I actually covered or was I breaking the law all that time? I never had any issues but I hate the thought of driving uninsured and am the first to slag off those that do!

 

So.. let me get this right... you were buying and selling cars, using a private car policy for one single vehicle, and were illegally and falsely registering other vehicles regularly as a vehicle trader, so you could drive them under a third party extension (which if you ask an insurer to clarify - will stipulate that extensions were intended for emergency use only) and your question is, was I breaking the law?! Do you really need an answer to that question?!

 

[carlo]

So.. let me get this right... you were buying and selling cars, using a private car policy for one single vehicle, and were illegally and falsely registering other vehicles regularly as a vehicle trader, so you could drive them under a third party extension (which if you ask an insurer to clarify - will stipulate that extensions were intended for emergency use only) and your question is, was I breaking the law?! Do you really need an answer to that question?!

 

 

Lighten up man, can't see much illegal about that.  You could even say he was reducing the value of the car by adding another name to the log book.  

[Faker]

I'm not having a rant. It was what I thought was a humerous reply to the question.

[Richard]

And incidentally you're in a sticky situation with welding, grinding and anything that might change the original chassis slightly - even if it is to fix it:

 

 

That just means that fire caused by hot work isn't covered.

 

I have happy* memories of firewatching while my car was being gas welded. In retrospect a bucket of water might have been useful but I always just blew the fires out, with varying degrees of success.

[Faker]

I always just blew the fires out, with varying degrees of panic.

Fixed that for you!

[Richard]

It always helped to take a deep breath of soundproofing fumes before blowing.

[RustyNuts]

That just means that fire caused by hot work isn't covered.

 

No that means if you weld new metal into the chassis and it then decides to give on the morotway at 70mph writing off your car, they're not going to pay you a penny. You did see the words above about loss, injury, damage to ANY property (eg potentially the 3rd parties house you just demolished).... right?

 

Don't misinterpret these things to mean what you'd prefer them to mean, it's legal jargon and it's designed to protect the insurers - not the customers and that means they will use it exactly as it's worded.

[Snipes]

No that means if you weld new metal into the chassis and it then decides to give on the morotway at 70mph writing off your car, they're not going to pay you a penny. You did see the words above about loss, injury, damage to ANY property (eg potentially the 3rd parties house you just demolished).... right?

 

Don't misinterpret these things to mean what you'd prefer them to mean, it's legal jargon and it's designed to protect the insurers - not the customers and that means they will use it exactly as it's worded.

No it says nothing about chassis, chassis repairs or the consequences there of.

Read what it actually says.

It says cutting, welding and grinding operations

[RustyNuts]

Exactly. And if you do those to the chassis (FOR EXAMPLE) and it goes tits up, they're not going to cover you.

 

Admittedly it is a bit ambiguous, it could be taken to mean the act itself (ie the muscle power and tools) or the result of the act on the vehicle. But ask yourself this, what insurers would cover any act of repair anyway? - None.

[SiC]

I take that wording to be if during the act of working on the car you burn it to the ground, it's not covered. Not the work done on it. I.e. operating a grinding/welding/etc tool.

[SiC]

So I phoned up directline, as I needed insurance for driving the Astra to the MOT station. I queried the 3rd party thing and if it needed a policy in force. He mentioned that yes, as long as the car isn't mine and isn't registered to me, I was allowed to drive it with no other policy - as long as the owner agrees.

 

BUT, and the big but, as soon as I effectively exit the car, that car is no longer insured. So if left it on a public road, the registered keeper would be liable for keeping an uninsured vehicle on the road. This is why they recommend (and some companies put a requirement in) that you have insurance already in force.

 

Not sure how it'd work if the police stopped you and told you to get out of the car!

 

I just paid the £22 to cover it properly for the day...

[RustyNuts]

Not sure how it'd work if the police stopped you and told you to get out of the car!

 

You have your DL policy booklet with you to show that you're legal and then explain the moment you get out, it becomes uninsured and they've unlawfully entraped you into committing a crime.

 

If they proceed any further a good solicitor would rip them to shreds.

[PiperCub]

So.. let me get this right... you were buying and selling cars, using a private car policy for one single vehicle, and were illegally and falsely registering other vehicles regularly as a vehicle trader, so you could drive them under a third party extension (which if you ask an insurer to clarify - will stipulate that extensions were intended for emergency use only) and your question is, was I breaking the law?! Do you really need an answer to that question?!

 

Yes I do, that's why I asked............... I'm not in the habit of asking questions I know the answer to sir.

 

To clarify, I was only doing one car at a time (couldn't afford any more) and only using this facility to get them home or back to campus not to trawl around for months in them on questionable insurance. I knew people that did do that but as I had another hack fully insured I didn't need to and didn't want to take the piss. 

 

Hope this answers your query and sets you mind to rest. 

[martybabes]

So I phoned up directline, as I needed insurance for driving the Astra to the MOT station. I queried the 3rd party thing and if it needed a policy in force. He mentioned that yes, as long as the car isn't mine and isn't registered to me, I was allowed to drive it with no other policy - as long as the owner agrees.

 

BUT, and the big but, as soon as I effectively exit the car, that car is no longer insured. So if left it on a public road, the registered keeper would be liable for keeping an uninsured vehicle on the road. This is why they recommend (and some companies put a requirement in) that you have insurance already in force.

 

 

 

Now then, what if you parked it on a hill outside the newsagent solely to pop in and get your supply of B&H (or a paper or some sweeties)*?.  If you had failed properly to engage the handbrake and the car rolled down the hill, were you the driver or was it someone else?

 

Discuss

 

 

 

* other cigarettes are available

[drum]

No that means if you weld new metal into the chassis and it then decides to give on the morotway at 70mph writing off your car, they're not going to pay you a penny. You did see the words above about loss, injury, damage to ANY property (eg potentially the 3rd parties house you just demolished).... right?

 

Don't misinterpret these things to mean what you'd prefer them to mean, it's legal jargon and it's designed to protect the insurers - not the customers and that means they will use it exactly as it's worded.

Disagree Rusty, I'm with Richard on this one. While many insurers will try to get out of a claim, none of them are going to check a car for grinding or soldering after an accident. That line refers to fire damage caused by those operations.

 

On the original question, if it was ok to use the 'any car not belonging to you' get out clause without the car being insured, people wouldn't bother with multi-car policies for their chod? They would just insure one register the rest in a friend's name.

[RustyNuts]

Now then, what if you parked it on a hill outside the newsagent solely to pop in and get your supply of B&H (or a paper or some sweeties)*?.  If you had failed properly to engage the handbrake and the car rolled down the hill, were you the driver or was it someone else?

 

Discuss

 

Personally I wouldn't do it - it's tempting fate. Moving a car from A=>B (eg MOT) yes, been there and done that but I wouldn't stop off otherwise.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

You have your DL policy booklet with you to show that you're legal and then explain the moment you get out, it becomes uninsured and they've unlawfully entraped you into committing a crime.

 

If they proceed any further a good solicitor would rip them to shreds.

Don't forget to repeatedly yell 'I AM A SOVEREIGN CITIZEN!!!!' while deploying the above strategy to show the coppers that you really know what you are talking about ffs

[0ldCh0d]

That just means that fire caused by hot work isn't covered.

 

I have happy* memories of firewatching while my car was being gas welded. In retrospect a bucket of water might have been useful but I always just blew the fires out, With varying degrees of success.

 

Speaking of gas welding/burning, around 12 years ago, one of my friends worked for a well known tyre fitting company (begins with AT, 3 letters). One day, a customer came in to get the exhaust replaced on his newly painted, long wheelbase, high roof smiley face ford transit (jumbo if I remember correctly).

 

Anyway, my friend got the van up on the ramp & proceeded to remove the exhaust, all was going good until he got to the front pipe/manifold bolts, which, were inevitability seized. So, my friend decided to give them the old "bit of heat" treatment to free them off a bit.

What he didn't factor in was the sound deadening on the bulkhead, which he only realised had caught fire when the flames were coming out the side of the bonnet on the transit up on the ramp.

The van was destroyed & the workshop obviously badly damaged.

 

I never did find out who's insurance company paid out.

 

Off topic I know, but it is funny now.

[Pillock]

I think that welding or grinding line just goes to show that the English language is a beautiful thing that can mean any chuffing thing you want it to.

I can see how reading it in a certain way would sound like you can't repair your car, but I honestly believe they just mean if you torch your car with a welder, don't call them as they won't care.