Guilty until proven innocent. Thames Valley Police Not Chris and Ruffey, no Omegas.

[Jim Bell]

They didnt even have cars in those days. He was ahead of his time.

[buckbuckbuckie]

The HORT1 still exists. I like them - gives the motorist the opportunity to produce his documents and if they are lying, well, they get summoned.

 

Personally having your certificate of insurance on your phone is for winners.

 

 

It doesnt matter if you have your certificate on your phone, on your person or tattooed on your forehead.  If they can not verify it there and then your car will be impounded.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

If I knew my car to be insured, and I had a proper certificate in my hand showing it to be so, and the police still chose to impound it, I would be tempted to kill myself in protest as what other avenues are left open to me?

[Jim Bell]

If I knew my car to be insured, and I had a proper certificate in my hand showing it to be so, and the police still chose to impound it, I would be tempted to kill myself in protest as what other avenues are left open to me?

A rage wank on the bus and a bit cry.

[scaryoldcortina]

A customer of mine had her car impounded the other week despite it being insured, taxed and tested. Seems she was guilty of driving a blue MGZR, the stop was in connection with a series of burglaries and the car was seized for evidence.

 

No evidence found, no charges brought, she doesn't even live anywhere near where the burglaries happened (and she's too fat to squeeze in through a kitchen window anyway). Police want £150 uplift fee and £60 per day storage before they release the car!

 

I think she's looking for another cheap snotter on gumtree.

[AMC Rebel]

Probably because the insurance companies major shareholders are bunging polititians to keep the gravy train rolling along.

EFA - not in brown envelopes (although that's also likely) but by means of paid lobbyists, lucrative directorships etc.

[AMC Rebel]

The point has already been made in here, and it's annoyed me for as long as I can remember.

 

Why, if insurance is a legal requirement, is it not standardised centrally by the government? Like in Oz, where your annual rego (equivalent to VED) includes basic 3rd party insurance.

 

It's such a massive clusterfuck.

 

I do wonder how we manage to be so genuinely hopeless at admin as well.

 

When there's some crime and the coppers need to find something or someone, they never seem to know what (car) belongs to whom, yet those of us staying on the right side of the law seem to be jumping through more and more hoops - doesn't make sense.

[Jim Bell]

A customer of mine had her car impounded the other week despite it being insured, taxed and tested. Seems she was guilty of driving a blue MGZR, the stop was in connection with a series of burglaries and the car was seized for evidence.

 

No evidence found, no charges brought, she doesn't even live anywhere near where the burglaries happened (and she's too fat to squeeze in through a kitchen window anyway). Police want £150 uplift fee and £60 per day storage before they release the car!

 

I think she's looking for another cheap snotter on gumtree.

Thats appauling. It doesnt really pay to not be a criminal.

[wuvvum]

It doesnt matter if you have your certificate on your phone, on your person or tattooed on your forehead.  If they can not verify it there and then your car will be impounded.

It will, but that's only because a lot of coppers are arseholes who don't know the law (and are taking backhanders from the recovery / impound firms, allegedly m'lud).

 

Legally an original Certificate of Motor Insurance has always been, as its name suggests, proof that the motor is insured - until relatively recently it was the only proof.  The advent of the MID did not, to my knowledge, cause that long-standing rule to be repealed.

 

I have (thus far, touch wood etc) always been lucky in that when I've been stopped in a motor that's not on the MID and been able to show the copper some evidence that I'm insured (I have a photo of my certificate on my phone), they've let me go even when it's been late at night and they haven't been able to call my broker to check.  Even though a mere photo of a certificate isn't technically legal proof.

[gordonbennet]

I'm hardly enthusiastic about the compensation culture which has crossed the Atlantic from the USA, it's insidious and often brings out the worst characteristics of humanity but in situations like these, government is more likely to continue blindly towards a police state if there is no significant cost to these sorts of errors involving innocent people.

 

In December 2014, the Chief Contable of Greater Manchester warned that the UK was in danger of drifting into a police state.

 

Has he still got a job.

[Dave_Q]

I suspect this varies wildly depending where you are in the country and the attitude of the officer.

 

7 day wonders are still a thing, but I bet some forces are told to tow first, ask questions later. 

 

It's up to the officer what they do, it would be nice if more of them were like our Bren. 

 

In the case of NnWs bro, I'm actually slightly surprised that the insurance company have offered to pay - I expect that in many cases people get told to do one, even if their car has been impounded at a cost of $$$ due to the companies mistake.

[forddeliveryboy]

Thats appauling. It doesnt really pay to not be a criminal.

 

Except it does, if you live in the real world - the hard-working, low-waged man in the street often has more moral fibre and backbone than the whole of Westminster put together. But a steady and increasing dribble of cynical policies and laws isn't going to end well, I'd suggest. If government can't be seen to act from a high moral standpoint, what hope is there?

[Faker]

Cars can only be seized for no insurance by feds, so long as they're 100% satisfied it's not insured. It's that simple. If they're not 100% then they can't seize. Usual tactics are trying to catch people out changing stories etc. But... mistakes can be made. I've been stopped numerous times for no insurance (due to reg not showing insurance) due to delays in mib updates etc, and broker actually updating records. When I've been stopped, I've explained that I've a trade policy, and have been issued with a producer. I know if a vehicle had been seized wrongly that the police authority pay all recovery/ seizure costs.

[matty879]

i got pulled not so long ago,by a plod whos known of me since the xr3 days,even though i came back squeeky clean on his system,he still issued me with a producer,and reminded me he never forgets a face,and i will get you next time,my reply was no you wont.i think he was just being a twat because he can.

[matty879]

 it;s the 3rd party  cover that is the highest cost  part of the premium  ...  i suspect a flat fee  3rd party  cover would be close to 1000 gbp  in the UK

 

 

3rd party only cover for me is £400.00 a year more expensive than comprehensive on my diesel focus.which is double my premium cost,how does that work?

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I drove past a traffic copper tonight in my Rover 600 thats not MOT'd or taxed, and insured on a 24h dayinsure. I was sure he was gonna pull me over, but he didnt seem to be following me. After a while I pulled off the A50 and from the sliproad I noticed him come flippin steaming up the road at a rate of knots. I assumed he was coming to catch me up. I went back down the slip road onto the A50 and sat at a steady 60 behind him hoping he'd bugger off into the distance. He slowed to 60 and I saw him pull into the layby ahead of me. I figured I'd go past again and when he caught me up this time, not only would I have to explain why I had no tax or MOT, but also why I'd dodged up the sliproad like a crim. So, I pulled in behind him and got out.

 

'Are you looking for me officer?'

'No, should I be?'

'No, I just went past you before and assumed I'd pinged up for having no insurance so you were looking for me'

'I wasn't..... have you got insurance?'

"Yes"

'No problem then eh. I've just pulled in here to have a word with this lorry driver who's blocking the layby'

'Er... Ok well I guess my guilty conscience is getting the better of me. I'll let you get on with it I suppose! Carry on!'

'Cheers, See you'

[Barry Cade]

I collect  quite a few uninsured cars every day now, Known as a 165.

 

 

Police advice.....

 

If it is believed that either a) No Insurance or No Licence is held then officer must contact an RPU officer to attend the location. In exceptional circumstances authority may be given remotely
If the driver maintains that insurance is in place then make a call to -
Motor Insurers Bureau (MIB) – 0845 1652 999 - normal office hours are
Mon – Fri 0800hrs -2100hrs and Saturday from 0900hrs – 1700hrs.
If out of hours the RPU or ANPR officer should consider whether he/she has reasonable belief that the vehicle is uninsured or the driver is unlicensed and make a decision to seize the vehicle or not.

 

 

It should be noted that each insurance company has a duty to update the MIB database (which has a direct link to PNC) within 7 days for private insurance and up to 14 days for vehicle ‘fleets’. The updates are usually done on the same day; however, an officer should be cautious regarding a seizure if the driver maintains that they have taken out the insurance within the last 7 days unless the officer can get further suspicion by MIB enquiries or other telephone enquiries direct to the insurance company.

Similarly, it is the responsibility of a vehicle trader to notify his insurance company of vehicles that are in his/her possession for over 14 days and the database should be updated within 21 days.

Seized vehicles shall not be released solely on production of a Trade Insurance Policy – a document proving purchase/ownership should be seen as well. Vehicles ownership cannot be transferred after the time they are seized. This prevents a person selling a car to a Trader for purposes of getting vehicles released.

If the driver is not the owner then the owner should be sent a letter to inform him/her of the seizure, the letter will be sent by the Vehicle Recovery office by recorded delivery as soon as practicable.
Vehicles can only be authorised for release on proof of valid drivers licence and insurance at the nominated  police station enquiry desk. Payment will be made direct by the owner/driver to the FMG Recovery Operator (release will be withheld until a full payment is made).

Vehicles can only be authorised for release on proof of valid drivers licence and insurance at the nominated  police station enquiry desk. Payment will be made direct by the owner/driver to the FMG Recovery Operator (release will be withheld until a full payment is made).
Any disputes should be referred to the Vehicle Recovery Scheme Administrator on ext 8601 during normal office hours or to an RPU supervisor out of normal office hours.

One-Day Insurance Policies – Some Insurance companies are allowing single day cover. If such a policy is produced to get a vehicle released the enquiry desk staff member should refer the policy to a police officer to contact MIB, so that they can check the small print of the policy (not always on the certificate). Many of these policies specifically exclude their use to get a vehicle released from a police seizure. If the policy doesn’t exclude the vehicle release then we can release it.

[garbaldy]

So that's great if your not showing on the MID then the police have to phone the MID to check if your insured but only between working hours, that sounds totally sensible*

[burraston2006]

If they wrongly impound your vehicle can you take them to the small claims court to get the money back and loss of earnings/cost of hire car etc?

[Richard]

I think it's basically tough shit.

[Barry Cade]

WHO PAYS
The owner/driver will pay statutory fees unless they have agreed an ‘owners request’ recovery that includes more than a recovery back to the Recovery operator’s base.
The statutory fees will apply to all vehicles that are -

abandoned,

cause an obstruction or danger,

seized for evidence (where the vehicle is seized from a suspect and the seizure is lawful based on reasonable suspicion, judged on balance of probabilities),

seized under Sect 165A RTA or Sect 59 Police Reform Act or

involved in a collision where the vehicle is not legal to drive.
Owner/driver will also be responsible for recovery costs for Stolen/TWOC vehicles as they should claim any costs from their insurance company or compensation through the courts. Please note that attempts to allow an owner to recover a vehicle themselves immediately may be made unless the vehicle is in a dangerous position and cannot otherwise be immediately removed.

 

The police will only pay in the following circumstances:-

The recovery of police owned or police hired vehicles.

Where a vehicle has been recovered for forensic reasons or a mechanical examination from a victim or witness (not a suspect) but not including where the vehicle is reported stolen (TWOC), or involved in a collision.

Where the seizure has been unlawful, or the police have acted unreasonably or unfairly (judged on the balance of probabilities) i.e. the seizure was not necessary. The initial judgement of this will be made by the Inspector with specific responsibility for Vehicle Recovery, in consultation with FMG representative and ultimately by Legal Services HQ.

[Richard]

In summary: tough titty.

[garbaldy]

But surely if the police remove your legal car from the side of the road then that is unlawful.

[Bren]

It doesnt matter if you have your certificate on your phone, on your person or tattooed on your forehead.  If they can not verify it there and then your car will be impounded.

If MIB is open it can be verified with them.

[Bren]

I have had it where somebody is adamant they are insured but all the information is to the contrary.

 

Hort 1 is issued and subject produces docs at station.

 

HOWEVER - at the time of the stop they were not insured and have taken out a policy after the stop.

 

The motorist has been given the benefit of the doubt but obviously they are still summoned for no insurance.

 

Another trick was to take out insurance, get certificate and cancel policy. Anybody who could immediately produce a certificate at the time of the stop raised my suspicions immediately........

[garbaldy]

So if you get stopped as not on the MID and it's out of hours what is best course of action,

Can you ask for a horty

[Bren]

You can - in these circumstances I would issue one.

[JohnK]

I've been stopped 3 times in 3 years for no insurance, twice on the way back home with what I had just bought, the other time it was the day after and the MID still hadn't updated.

 

Each time I was able to explain exactly where I had bought it from (which checked out), explain exactly where I was going to (which the route I was taking would take me too). One was a Sunday teatime (insurance and MIB closed) and another was midnight so same situation.

 

Each time I've been given a producer, on one occasion the traffic officer commented that he had just dealt with another no-insurance and had seized the car because 'I think they were telling fibs'

 

 

Don't get me wrong I can imagine there are some utter power crazy twats out there in traffic but the ones I've dealt with have had some common sense and let me on my way, so I'm not sure if seizures are that common (mind you looking at the Cleveland & Durham RPU Twitter they're seizing uninsured cars daily, so what do I know other than my own experiences!)

 

For the record, I was insured on each occasion and was able to produce as such!

[panhard65]

I got stopped a few years ago on the M11. The very nice WPC told me that they had pulled me because the van came up as uninsured. As soon as I mentioned "Tradex" she believed my story. They used to charge 50p a text to update the mid for trade policies but half the time never bothered. She told me that I should send a bill to Tradex for my time lost due to being stopped then let me go with no producer or anything. I am with LV now and they update it over the phone straight away.

[Al Bundy]

I drove past a traffic copper tonight in my Rover 600 thats not MOT'd or taxed, and insured on a 24h dayinsure. I was sure he was gonna pull me over, but he didnt seem to be following me. After a while I pulled off the A50 and from the sliproad I noticed him come flippin steaming up the road at a rate of knots. I assumed he was coming to catch me up. I went back down the slip road onto the A50 and sat at a steady 60 behind him hoping he'd bugger off into the distance. He slowed to 60 and I saw him pull into the layby ahead of me. I figured I'd go past again and when he caught me up this time, not only would I have to explain why I had no tax or MOT, but also why I'd dodged up the sliproad like a crim. So, I pulled in behind him and got out.

 

'Are you looking for me officer?'

'No, should I be?'

'No, I just went past you before and assumed I'd pinged up for having no insurance so you were looking for me'

'I wasn't..... have you got insurance?'

"Yes"

'No problem then eh. I've just pulled in here to have a word with this lorry driver who's blocking the layby'

'Er... Ok well I guess my guilty conscience is getting the better of me. I'll let you get on with it I suppose! Carry on!'

'Cheers, See you'

Who did you use for the insurance mate