Yugoslavian Ami.., continuing on from 'now-autoshites-flimsy-bodied Shitroen'

[Noel Tidybeard]

after seeing your "headlight conversion" i started wondering if your lights ar the type which can be turned up-side-down to convert to RHD like what were fitted to my fathers 1972 renner12- which would save some pennies

[Bfg]

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^ That's interesting.. I don't think so because of the cable adjusters to the inside of the car (for when the back end is loaded) but it's definitely worth my checking. Thanks.

 

BTW.  when a wheel has no central hole how is it balanced ? 

 

^ rubber ring for in the bath - no..  the wheels having been painted are in there for that paint to harden off,  as it's warmer in there than anywhere else around this old farm house. 

[dollywobbler]

Generally, 2CV wheels don't need balancing. The centre-point steering helps here I think. Some places do have adapters to do it, but not many want to dig it out.

 

You don't need inner tubes either. I've never used them on a 2CV.

[Bfg]

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Definitely worth asking around - Thanks.   mind you the 3-stud pattern probably doesn't help either.  However, if I take in all five wheels at once then it will reduce their setting up pain (..the poor dears !)

 

'Dynabeads' have also been suggested - any thoughts ?

 

http://autoshite.com/topic/26894-stupid-question-amnesty/?p=1156227 (thanks Tickman)

 

This is from Dynabeads own website - where they reproduce a a review in Rolls Royce Club magazine :

http://www.dynabeads.co.uk/pdf/Dynabead_vintage_article.pdf 

[dollywobbler]

Seriously, don't bother! 2CVs very rarely suffer wheel balance issues unless either the tyres are completely cheap rubbish, or there's actually a badly worn kingpin that sets up a similar-feeling rattle to an out-of-balance wheel. I've clocked up well over 100,000 miles in my 2CV without the need for balancing. Apart from once, which WAS because of worn kingpins (which was a bit annoying, having actually found someone able to balance 2CV wheels.)

[Bfg]

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That's really interesting.. Thanks.    I certainly respect your opinion in this matter because I know it's based on real & long distance experience..

 

Mind you.., I'm equally as intrigued to know the how's & why's that might be the case, when even brand new tyres are not exactly balanced.  And I'd presume a 15" tyre would be worse than let's say a 12" wheel. 

 

Soft springing, long swinging arms, large diameter tyres, rolled & welded steel (yet inexpensive) wheels, and a lightweight car - would each imply being prone to, and also being sensitive to wheels being out of balance.  Clearly this is another one of those things to chalk up to Citroen's ingenuity,  but still as an Engineer I'd be very glad to learn why   

 

Relative speaking the fat wheels on the old S7 Sunbeams are a similar width and just 1" larger diameter ...and especially the early bikes are quite unsafe if the wheels are not properly balanced.   But even on later bikes (1949 - 56) wheels out of balance will knock 10mph off their top speed.

 

Most interesting  

[dollywobbler]

Like I say, the centre point steering is probably a key part of it. There's actually not very much wheel either side of the line. Andre Lefebvre was a huge centre-point fan (the man behind Traction, 2CV and DS - how's that for a CV?). It's also one reason they remain stable with a flat tyre. That and the suspension that absorbs the sensation so well that you don't even realise you have a flat tyre. Until you come to a bend...

[Noel Tidybeard]

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^ That's interesting.. I don't think so because of the cable adjusters to the inside of the car (for when the back end is loaded) but it's definitely worth my checking. Thanks.

 

BTW.  when a wheel has no central hole how is it balanced ? 

 

i would imagine the adjusters will have no bearing on this as the lamp unit will prolly only be fixed in bowl with 2 screws and the cables move the bowl or the lamp fixing

 

renner 12s have load adjustable lights albeit with a lever next to the light

 

i can remember what made my dad take the lights out and check but sure enough turned upside down he had better lights- they look like the same shaped lights as your ami

[Bfg]

Like I say, the centre point steering is probably a key part of it. There's actually not very much wheel either side of the line. Andre Lefebvre was a huge centre-point fan (the man behind Traction, 2CV and DS - how's that for a CV?). It's also one reason they remain stable with a flat tyre. That and the suspension that absorbs the sensation so well that you don't even realise you have a flat tyre. Until you come to a bend...

 

I sorta hope my motorcycle wheels are pretty 'centre point' too

[Bfg]

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With the fifth wheel now cleaned up and painted, my next task is to remove the car's wings and prepare & paint their undersides. After all there's no point in having the car roadworthy when the underside of the wheel arches are in places exposed bare metal. They'd dissolve before summer time !!

 

 I decided to start with the easiest which is the rear wings. The inner wheel arches are part of the body shell and were repaired by 2cvKeza., so aside from a second coat of paint on those, only the exterior panel needed work. 

 

From the outset (when I bought this car) I thought about modifying the rear wings - because I prefer those on the Wankel engined Citroen M35, which have little arch cut-outs ..to show the rear wheels more.. but not so much as to loose the distinct lines of this car.   

When I came to take the wheels off my Ami last week (for repainting)  the back of the car had to be jacked up extremely high in the air for the swinging arm to drop down far enough to get the wheel off the brake hub. I was convinced - from a purely practical point of view - the car would benefit from having either removable spats or arches.

 

^ the 2 door coupe Citroen M35, with rear arches

 

However, I prefer not to irrevocably modify a rare* old-shiter car.  So I was looking for a pair of grp wings that I might cut and shove to my heart's content.  I spoke to Janez about this during our first meeting, and he kindly offered me a pair of fibreglass panels which were in "rough condition and a poor fit ".   I was glad to accept them, and they got shipped back (in place of  tools and parts) from Slovenia last March.

 

Today I took the opportunity to pull one out and try it on the car. True, the grp panel is not a brilliant fit ..but then nor are any of the panels on these cars.!    So, I set to - cutting out the first arch.  Sorry about the limited aspect of these photos but the other wheels are still in the bathroom (allowing their fresh coat of paint to harden) and so I couldn't pull the car outside to get a decent photo..

 

^ yes, that really is stuck-on 'woody' paneling

 

 

^ damn.. my electric jig-saw is on the boat, so I had to cut this out manually with a fret saw..   

 

 

^ Yes again, the ripple of underseal is moulded in !

 

^ This might give you an indication of how much undersweep the arch has had.  I now have 1-¹/₂" or more lateral clearance for easier tyre changing ..and seeing the rear wheels will imho improve the front/rear visual balance of the car.   Question now is whether I should use spacers to bring the wheel out to fill the gap !  

 

Bfg 

317 replies

12,845 views

[Felly Magic]

That arch mod looks pretty tidy, keep up the good work

[Bfg]

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Want!

Ben

 

Just for you Ben ..

 

And Thanks Felly

[dollywobbler]

That's looking pretty good!

[Bfg]

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Today I've been busy .. One of the difficulties of working with fibreglass panels is that you can't use strong solvents or acids to remove the old paint. (because the fibreglass itself is made up of polyester resin). So all the old paint has to come off by scraping n' sanding. Just this one rear wing took almost 6-¹/₂ hours (to get this far).  ho hum !  
 

^ most of the paint removed and much filler - because I sought to get back to the panel's original shape.  Btw the previously undersealed look along the bottom of the panel was done in spray filler and was not moulded in as previously suggested. 

 

The black colour is the gel-coat. Manufacturers often choose black because it's the strongest pigment and any places where it's been applied a bit thin ..the fault doesn't show through so much ! Shame when most of these cars were finished in a light colour.

 

Although the panel is a little distorted* ..much of the relief 's edges had been rounded off when previously painted (..the shallows were filled in and the crisp edges of the high points had been rounded off). 

*distortion : sinkage / flattening is common with polyester resins - which shrink as they cure, especially if not supported after being removed from their mould ..but are still curing.

 

GRP panels very often face criticism for being a poor shape, but it seems as if a lot of this is down to poor paint preparation. Those preparing the panels for paint seem to forget (when they are orbital sanding) that grp not as hard as steel !  In fact it's only as hard as the polyester filler they are applying.

 

Of course there are some fine grp cars out there, but in circumstance when grp panels are used in place of steel originals they are most likely considered cheap substitutes to the real thing ..so perhaps there's less effort in getting them right.? 

 

Bfg. 

13,004 views

[dollywobbler]

Ah, that's interesting to know. I've currently got one GRP wing and one steel wing on the 2CV. A friend has offered me another steel wing, but I was toying with keeping the GRP one and painting it. Maybe a steel wing would be better!

 

Incidentally, the ditched wing on the other side had a stone nearly go through it after a stone got thrown up by the rear wheel! Both wings have suffered damage on the leading edge - stress? Also, the paint was too hard, so has started flaking off. GRP wings are very flexible! To be fair, they're also very light. I was surprised at how much lighter they are. It isn't often a 2CV body panel feels heavy! Metal rear wings do by comparison though.

[mat_the_cat]

Might I ask, have you tried Maxxis AP2.?  I ask only because they are rated all season.

 

I put a set on the BX a couple of months ago. It's always difficult to make a comparison between tyres when you're replacing worn with new, as I can never remember exactly how the old ones felt when unworn! But am happy with the performance, and would buy again assuming the wear rate doesn't prove to be terrible.

 

They've gripped pretty well in the brief period of slush we had:

 

 

and interestingly are not too bad on muddy grass.

[binhoker668]

GREAT thread this.  Just spent all evening (well apart from an episode of Homeland) reading it. 

Inspiring stuff chief.  Even though I have zero mechanical skills.

Keep 'er lit.

Chris

[Bfg]

Ah, that's interesting to know. I've currently got one GRP wing and one steel wing on the 2CV. A friend has offered me another steel wing, but I was toying with keeping the GRP one and painting it. Maybe a steel wing would be better!

 

Incidentally, the ditched wing on the other side had a stone nearly go through it after a stone got thrown up by the rear wheel! Both wings have suffered damage on the leading edge - stress? Also, the paint was too hard, so has started flaking off. GRP wings are very flexible! To be fair, they're also very light. I was surprised at how much lighter they are. It isn't often a 2CV body panel feels heavy! Metal rear wings do by comparison though.

 

Steel is certainly much quicker to strip back to bare metal (chemically, mechanically or blasting),  but then.. well I don't need to tell you about corrosion of steel ! 

 

GRP or rather FRP can be made incredibly tough and very accurate too.  The nose cones of jet fighters used to be made in grp because they fitted radar within them. They would have to withstand hitting the occasional flock of birds and even hail stones at considerably faster speeds than your Dolly !  And then of course all sorts of marine craft are moulded in grp (including my own catamaran) ..even RNLI rescue boats and cigarette racers - both which take a lot of crashing in heavy seas (and often when loaded onto their trailers).  And at the other end of the scale there are a few grp racing Ferrari still kicking around, and even the odd glider soaring the skies.. It's a very versatile material when correctly engineered.   

 

Stress cracking is usually down to poor engineering and/or production. Engineering if the panel is made too thin which flap in 2cv sub-sonic turbulence (of course the same applies to steel wings which often crack in their return flanges &/or around an attachment bracket) ..and Production when the gel coat is too thick &/or the resin to fibre reinforcement ratio is amiss.  The gel is simply surface finish of thickened resin (usually with pigment) and as such it has no glass or other reinforcement fibres in it.  Correctly, it should be just thick enough to cover the fibre layers. Any more and, as you often see on fibreglass cars and panels ..the gelcoat cracks. 

 

When I used to make higher quality fibreglass panels ; I'd hand brush on a thin layer of pigmented gel, then I'd spray a thin layer of gel (again with pigment - as a evenly coloured screen to hide any brush marks in the first coat), before using surfacing tissue ..and then glassfibre. I might then finish the inside with surfacing tissue again.   Thin gelcoat will flex rather than crack, and the first layer of surfacing tissue will sit tight into all the corners - to avoid edge voids which later crack away or blister in summer heat.  If the panels is required to be more rigid then it was a simply matter to add a core layer between the fibreglass layers.  Not many fibreglassers do professional (rather than economical) job though.!

 

Easy enough to fix cracked gelcoat - just grind it back to the fibreglass layer and refinish it.  Polyester resins are a little hydroscopic, whereas epoxy are not and are pretty resistant to many strong chemicals as well.  Epoxy resins and fillers are very much stronger and more stable, but are problematic to cure fully in cold weather. To work epoxies well. the fibreglasser needs an autoclave to bake the resin.

 

NB. When spray painting grp cars or panels ; be aware that it attracts static, so an earth strap is useful and of course be especially dust free.  A wet floor (or hanging damp sheets) around your work place helps with both.   

 

 

My thanks to Mat_the_cat,  re. your experience with Maxxis.  ..Great photo too

 

... I'm now wondering whether there would be any benefit or me to go up from 135's to 145SR15's as I now have the clearance under the rear wings.?  Rolling resistance may go up a tad, as might the weight of steering.. but would the wider footprint help with the frontal weight of this car ?     

 

..and welcome Binhoker ..to this little corner pile of shite

 

Bfg      

[Bfg]

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btw & just for fun I was comparing the Ami-Super ( 4-cyl ohc 1015cc) with the M35 (Wankel single rotor 498cc) with the Ami-8 (2-cyl ohv 602cc) and the 2cv-6 (also 2-cyl ohv 602cc) with the GS Birotor (Wankel engined 995cc) and the performance chart is interesting :

 

^ despite the weights of the M35 and the Ami-super being quite similar (..hard to believe the 2-door M35 is 10kg heavier ! ) the M35 has really good performance for an engine capacity classed as less than 500cc.    

 

Yeah I know ; comparing performance or even fuel consumption is not the end-all ..but (for my sort of mind) it's interesting nevertheless,  ..so here's the link to Autodata catalog : Citroen  (sorry it wont save the selection of cars I chose to compare, only the link to the page to select the model from). 

 

I might add that - I have found the data from this website regarding my own (previously owned) old cars to be pretty fair to experience. 

 

Bfg

[dollywobbler]

I had an Acadiane with 145s on it. Strangely, it was very easy to get it to wheelspin, though front-end traction was pretty good if you were getting a hoon on. I'd run them a bit higher than the 20psi recommended for narrower tyres myself. 145s can rub on full lock.

[Bfg]

^ interesting re wheel spin and steering lock - Thanks. The Ami-S adds an extra metre of turning circle over the Ami-8 ..so lock may  be an issue.   Wheel-spin is probably not such an issue with the car's additional frontal weight. Having said that ..as you saw from the video when I had the car first running, wheel-spin was easy enough even on a good dry surface. Definitely food for thought.

[Asimo]

I have often tried tyres the next size or two wider and I have never found the change to cause steering to be heavier. In fact on two cars exactly the opposite was true. (Maestro and BMW 518) No power assistance on any of the cars I am thinking of.

 

I don't recall what size my Ami Super's tyres were but there was an issue with tyres rubbing, on the suspension arms I think; needed the lock-stops adjusting.

[Bfg]

^ did you find the Ami-S steering lock a little annoying at times, or was it not an issue ?

[Bfg]

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9th February already ! ..can't believe these weeks have gone so quickly..

 

Those few days I've been in the garage have been spent working on the rear wing.  I'll show you slow progress by way of piccies.

 

^ object of the exercise was to protect & colour the underside of the wheelarches with a hand-brushed coat of paint  ..but I've gotten sorta distracted insomuch as I'm moved across to grp (rust free) rear wings with cutout arches. (..the steel rear wings were not in good shape, so would have taken a lot of renovation* so I'm not spending that much more time than I would have done anyway).

 

^ checking the fitment of the rear light unit. The grp panel needed a little trimming to get the lamp to fit neatly ..so I assume the last owner musta trimmed the lamp body to fit the wing !

 

^ one of the things with economic* replacement panels is that often their quality is crap. With grp panels that's evident as air bubbles between the gel-coat and the grp.  These blisters have an annoying habit of cracking out ..after you've painted the damn thing, so it's a safer bet to dig out the holes in advance.  Just pick (hard tap) at the raised / outside edges with a pointy thing ..like a Stanley-knife blade, and when it goes through - then open up the voids so that they can be filled at the same time as preparing the panel for paint. 

 

 

^ this panel's shape had flatten out over the wheelarch (even before I cut the bottom flange off ) ..in fact it needs about another 1/4" bow to the line.  I'll not use body filler for anything more than 1/16" or so, so I decided to bond in a support batten on the inside to restore the correct shape (like the original steel panel has running parallel to its bottom edge).  Unfortunately some moron had black bitumastic under-sealed this wing (which of course nothing will glue to)  ..as if it were going to go rusty ! ..or anyone was going to look under there !  ...I loathe that stuff 

 

a bow (curved batten) glued in place with glassfibre paste. The bow is something I found in the boat yard dumpster (from a boat's berth) which happened to be the right sorta size and a nice curvature. The weights and clamp are to bring this to the depth of curvature I wanted.  Only later on this week will I find out if I got it right !

 

I had reshaped the top return flange (where the wing attaches to the body shell) and found it to be a better fit than the original panels.   ..and now it's just a little better still.  But the front (door shut) return was both ugly (see 4^th photo) and too shallow, the attachment tab was broken, and again the depth of the panel was slightly too flat a shape.  Here I'm using blue masking tape in place of a mould.. 

 

^ with the bow's fibreglass paste cured - enough to hold shape, I added a couple of layers of grp mat over it.  This will be stronger and ensure that it's rigid, and it'll help keep the moisture out. The thin batten seen here is lightly clipped and weighted down along the arch's cutout to avoid air bubbles.  The paving bricks (just heavy weights) are holding the forward door shut a slightly deeper shape as the new deeper return cures overnight.

 

^ And finally the front door shut grp extended inwards..  It was something like 8-10mm (very similar to the original steel panel) but now it's 25-30mm.

 

Tomorrow I'll trim the edges and see if I got the various revised shapes right.. If so then I'll mount the panel on the car to fill and fair.

 

 

Btw.. if this sort of post is just sooooo.... boring., just tell me and I'll shut up.. otherwise I hope it'll be of interest to anyone else thinking of working with grp panels on their car..  

 

Bfg

13,262 views

[Asimo]

^ did you find the Ami-S steering lock a little annoying at times, or was it not an issue ?

Don't remember anything about that all!

 

And no, posts of actual shite car owners doing actual class work on them is never boring.

[Bfg]

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..much stiffer & not even bolted in place, but already ..that's better 

 

as is the deeper door shut. You can see how shallow it was before..

 

with a bit a bondo slap n' tickle - she'll be looking pretty   

 

 

..now I mighta mentioned before that I don't like black rubber overriders, and so as previously threatened.. I sought to revise (visually lighten) its frontal styling..  _\/

 

^ Sadly no number yet ..because the DVLA rejected the application on grounds that they couldn't determine this car's year of manufacture, despite in the original log book it says -  Anno di Produzione : 1974.   I don't recall., did Britain ever join the EU ..or was that just a weird dream ?

 

..oh yeah - the repainted wheels are now refitted ..and looking good (imo) !

[500tops]

Very familiar bumper arrangement

[Bfg]

^ not seen that beforehand but thanks. That's Pete Sparrows former Ami / Alfa on the left isn't it - which subsequently went abroad ..and then scrapped ?  I don't know the green 'un but nice to see RHD cars. Is the green one still on UK roads ? Both look to be lowered ..just a little !   

[anonymous user]

I'm following this with interest as I have a soft spot for these awful looking cars. A friend of mine was given an Ami Super about thirty years ago, the car was in the Midlands but was not charging so she took spare batteries to make sure it didn't run out of electricity on the way back to Barry in South Wales, it did get fixed and was used for a while before it sadly succumbed to rust.

[Bfg]

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...and here is one I did earlier   (..not really ..but it's an Ami Super break (estate)  for sale in France)

 

 

I quote " I put on sale my Citroën Ami 8 of 6 horses for health reasons.
Lovers of vintage cars, this Ami 8 has been part of my collection for a few years. I therefore regret it and hope to find a serious and passionate buyer.

This vehicle is very healthy and has undergone a complete restoration. The floors are original and no trace of rust is to be deplored on the vehicle.
She sleeps in the garage, the painting has been completely redone with the original hue. It has 5 new tires, the seats and the bench are also new. The engine is also new and totals 6000 kms (with invoice).
I say that the Ami 8 has never been accident, I own the gray card in my name (French). It is a very healthy vehicle for lovers and enthusiasts of vintage French cars.

The car starts in a quarter turn, only small flat: it seems that there is a slight leak on the exhaust in a few days.

I specify that I have a few extra parts, including a second engine.

The price is 9000 € to discuss in front of the car.
Please do not call me if you are really interested. "   

uh ? something amiss with the translation me thinks !

 

 

here : leboncoin.fr