Here it comes - the 'Scrappage Scheme'

[Guest]

Well would you adam and eve it.

 

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/antiscrappage/sign

 

Go Shiters!!

[pompei]

All this talk of the motor trade up shit creek has led to calls for scrappage again - only last night it was on the radio again

[AnthonyG]

Sorry that petition is just completely stupid.

 

So it's a waste scrapping a 12 year old car, but not a 6 year old one? F**ktards .

 

Whoever devised it is a complete nob. I can understand maybe exempting cars 25+ years old but since when is a 12 year old car a 'classic'?

 

Bet the guy who wrote it has a 1997 Rover 100 he already thinks is an historic vehicle that should be saved for posterity.

 

Personally I reckon from the govt's POV, a scrappage scheme is a no-brainer - help the car industry, look environmentally friendly, help 'hard-working families' (Gordon thinks these are the only type of family in the UK), I can't understand why it hasn't happened already TBH.

 

Of course it's a waste to scrap working cars , but the whole capitalist system based on using up the worlds resources is a form of waste if you want to get into an argument based on that. We've made our bed, now we have to lie in it , if we want jobs and the lifestyle we currently have to continue.

[Dukestar25]

I was reading about this in Car Mechanics magazine this month.Their focus was on giving people a choice on wether they wanted to get a new car or not and that cars that were chopped in for this 'grant' should be scrapped, as in Dismantled (so people not wanting a newer car can still obtain spares for their 10y/o pride and joy) not scrapped as in Crushed straight up (which is the Government's preferred choice without doubt. They can make more 'Vehicle Tax' from newer cars!!).I would have to go with the 10 year old crowd on this one. I've blown so much cash on cars over the years, some bought on credit, almost none have seen better than 2 years ownership, I don't even want to go into how much it has cost over my 17 years as a motorist...

[mouseflakes]

That's nice, £2500 towards a new car. Ta very much.Er, what about the other 6 grand, where do I find that then? Under a stone in the back garden? Oh, I get myself into debt up to my eyeballs and contribute further to the national deficit.No ta, think I'll stick with my £300 Accord.

That's the nub of it really - spot on Mash. When personal debt is at an all-time high, why are folk being tempted further still?

[Rocket88]

As any fule kno, this is complete bollocks. The enviromental cost of producing hybrids/electric cars is far greater than conventionally engined cars anyway. All so called "enviromentally friendly" cars are riddled with stuff that costs an absolute fortune to extract from the ground, Lead/gold/platinum etc, not to mention the cost of re-cyling all the different types of batteries when they reach the end of their life. If you want to help the enviroment, don't buy a new car. Th SMMT are trying to pull a vast flanker on this, the trouble is, that uninformed twunts in the corridors of power will probably fall for it..............

[Mr Lobster]

I wonder if the reason that it hasn't happened already is that the difference with the scheme in France and Germany is that AFAIK the 2500Euro is towards the purchase of VW/Audi/BMW/etc in Germany and Renault/Peugeot/Citroen in France so is supporting their 'national' brands and essentially keeping the money in their economy.If its done here the government would essentially be subsidising foreign companies who don't give a stuff about UK as long as they can sell cars and all the tax from the 'hard working families' would be flowing straight out of the country and having little benefit on the UK other than keeping a few car dealers with totally unsustainable business models in business.

[FredTransit]

I am as incensed as the next shite owner about this, but let's not panic yet. It's all riddled with the words 'might' 'may' and 'proposed'. What we should be concentrating on is making sure this doesn't get to be a law. The petition won't help, it's just as easy to bin that as it is to bin any other letter ot email to the relevant civil servant.I am well aware of the fact that producing new cars is far more environmentally damaging than running an old one, and to benefit from the 2.5K you need to get into debt, but how many of the masses are aware of it? Spin and hype can be used both ways.....

[Daniel R25]

Hi,I am not in favour of this system. A 9 year-old car usually still has loads of life in it. And I do not think that a new Diesel would be more reliable than my Renault 25 td.However, you are wrong about the scheme in Germany. You get paid the 2500 Euros no matter what kind of car you buy. It only has to be new or showroom model less than 12 month old...So a lot of the money does not end up in Germany. Usually, the cars bought are small and cheap: Theses are virtually all sold out at the moment....So, actually most of the money does not end up at Porsche, Audi, BMW and Mercedes.... (although VW would get a big piece of cake)Daniel

[Mr Lobster]

Oh, OK, I stand corrected

[Justin Case]

For once, don't blame the tree-huggers. They are against waste as much as they are against folk spewing out CO2 into the atmosphere. It is a cynical move by car manufacturers who have found that years of producing more cars than the market can take has finally caught up with them. Older cars provide employment for the local independent garages, how many jobs would be lost there and how many saved amongst the few who screw Japanese parts together or make components. If Ford and VW are behind it, it looks a good way of moving British jobs to Germany behind the backs of the EU.

[reallyloud]

What it does mean is a possible increase in value for 'desirable' classics, and people looking to make a fast buck will ultimately make a 25 year old car firmly out of the reach of the likes of me. I remember the classic car boom in the late 80's, mk2 jags making 50K, even crappy old borderline scrap Beetles were difficult to find under £1000.Croatia has a similar scheme going on, and its mostly effected battered early 90's cars (and in the processes weeding out the owners that have no insurance or legal papers) the majority of well looked after and restored 70's and 60's stuff has remained largely intact. We were looking into bring over a Zastava 750 (Fiat 600) last year, only to be surprised by their collectability and relatively high prices.

[Mash]

I think the kind of cars that will go west if we have this kind of a scheme certainly will be the 90s era of cars mostly. I know that we should look to preserve all eras of car but to my mind it won't make a great deal of difference if we lose them in any number. Lets face it, the run of the mill stuff is pretty bland and when it gets to this age gets to the point where you get problems unlike much older, simpler cars. Is it really worth shelling out to replace cats, ECUs, and other crap?The cars that need catching now are the cherished 80s cars that are simpler but still capable and reliable. I don't give a hoot if we have no Astras or Mondeos really - I don't think they'll ever attain any cherished status. 70s cars have got to a point where they are collectable and there are loads in good hands or for sale to keep us going.I dunno - am I wrong to not care about the recent stuff? My dad recently got rid of a T-reg Rover 200 because it was approaching big spend time in a few areas. If it had been 10 or 12 years older it would have been possible to fix it himself relatively easily and cheaply. Grab a bargain 80s car now and stash it away while you still can.

[Guest]

I dunno Mash, I think you're being a bit harsh, there's some superb 90s cars out there - obviously my personal bias is towards boxy 80s stuff, but I think the 90s were a bit of a high point for a lot of makes in terms of quality and reliability. Things like ECUs existed but they tended to be plug-and-play and weren't massively prone to going wrong in the first place.

 

Get rid of 90s cars and you say goodbye to some pretty tasty and usable stuff.....

 

The stunning looks of the angry-face Galant.

 

The "right" feel of the late Cavalier.

 

The crisp Bertone styling of the Espero.

 

The mechanical durability of the Carina E.

 

Obviously the above won't be of interest to many now, but I'm happy to see a tidy example of pretty much any non-new motor. I admired an M-reg Astra 1.6 today just on the basis that it was an absolute minter - totally stock, polished and waxed, not even a scuff on its little Vauxhall alloys. Pretty much concours! Not my bag, but an absolutely lovely car and interesting just because of the fact that you don't see them that nice anymore.

 

If you ask me, any tidy of example of any older car should be hoarded away and protected, including 90s stuff. I'm hoping a mint Espero will turn up at some point just so I can get one whilst the going's good!

[AnthonyG]

According to a thread on RR, (now in the whinge bin for some reason ) a Y reg Astra and a X reg Mondeo were being scrapped by a Vauxhall dealer on that Ecoflex thing. IIRC the Mondeo was 35k from new and was mint, thats a shame to a Mk2 Mondeo fan like me. So this decade's cars are obviously in the firing line as well.In my opinion all modern French cars should be crushed as soon as they go back at the end of the 3 year PCP/lease . That would prevent them causing pain to mechanics/owners in the future (and visual pollution in the case of all new Pugs bar the 407). The only exemption I would allow is the Citroen C6, and the new C5.

[Negative Creep]

Sorry that petition is just completely stupid.

 

So it's a waste scrapping a 12 year old car, but not a 6 year old one? F**ktards .

 

Whoever devised it is a complete nob. I can understand maybe exempting cars 25+ years old but since when is a 12 year old car a 'classic'?

 

Bet the guy who wrote it has a 1997 Rover 100 he already thinks is an historic vehicle that should be saved for posterity.

 

Erm, in 10-15 years people will be on here saying the Rover 100 is a retro classic and it's a shame more weren't saved. If people thought this way 10 years ago, well this board would be a bit pointless wouldn't it?

[FredTransit]

Sorry that petition is just completely stupid.

 

So it's a waste scrapping a 12 year old car, but not a 6 year old one? F**ktards .

 

Whoever devised it is a complete nob. I can understand maybe exempting cars 25+ years old but since when is a 12 year old car a 'classic'?

 

Bet the guy who wrote it has a 1997 Rover 100 he already thinks is an historic vehicle that should be saved for posterity.

 

Erm, in 10-15 years people will be on here saying the Rover 100 is a retro classic and it's a shame more weren't saved. If people thought this way 10 years ago, well this board would be a bit pointless wouldn't it?

Well said, my thoughts entirely!

[AnthonyG]

I've got nothing against Rover 100s, just in my experience owners of British Leyland/Austin Rover cars tend to have a overinflated view of their historic value!I was pointing the complete lack of logic / sense- why is a 6-12 year old car OK to be part of a scrappage scheme, yet a 12-13 year car a priceless historic vehicle, which seemed to be the implication of this petition.From a ecological POV the newer the car, the less the justification for scrappage/removal as it has had less use. I would have though this is obvious to anybody with a functioning brain . I can understand why the industry/govt/all those in 'power' see a scrappage scheme as a good thing - obviously I am in a minority of one on this board ! This is not to say I think it is a good thing myself ,as one of my previous posts indicated.

[FredTransit]

I can also understand why the industry/govt/all those in 'power' can see a scrappage scheme as a good thing - doesn't mean it's economically or ecologically sound though does it? Just says to me the right people have been bunged!

[The Main]

I can't think of a more cynical or, at best ill-judged proposal than this scrappage scheme. The crux of the matter is that a great deal of the earth's resources were used up in building the cars this scheme would condemn to history. Many of these will be in good, serviceable condition. It's only going to benefit the wheels of big business and, as has been rightly pointed out, most of these companies will be based abroad. So the UK car industry (with the exception of the retail/main dealer element) will be needlessly screwed.I agree, we must NOT blame the environmentalists for this. We need them on our side, and I should think most people who genuinely care about climate change etc would be pretty incensed if they realised what is really going on here. Big multi-nationals and car retailers hijacking their cause in order to create a false demand for, and to produce and shift a load more units the market doesn't need or want.Whenever anyone talks to me about buying a new car I always make an effort to point out the 'eco' benefits of running an older car and extending it's life as long as possible. I'm often pleasantly surprised at how well-received my reasoning is (the huge cost in terms of the earth's resources and pollution of building a new vehicle that is not needed). When I was bombing around in my old Rover P5, a few people commented along the lines of ''well, it's not very 'green', is it?''. After a polite chat, in some cases they came around to my way of thinking and admitted they just hadn't thought about the fact that a new car doesn't just grow on a tree somewhere.So when we hear the likes of Paul Williams from the Retail Motor Industry Federation spouting things along the lines of ''it's all about building a greener Britain through our vehicle industry, not only for ourselves and our children, but for our children's children...'' I think we should be taking his words and ideas and using them to promote our own cause. We have GOT to go on the offensive now and make it more widely appreciated that 'getting the older cars off our roads'' is NOT going to help the environment, our health, our economy and certainly not our society.

[Pete-M]

The whole car market is insane lately.Mate of mine deals with late model vans. Anything from an 02 plate to an 08 plate. Went to his place the other day and he's stripping a 30k mile, FSH, '55' reg 2006 1.3 CDTi Vauxhall Combo van for parts. Tidy van, scrape on n/s/r 1/4 panel but nothing to worry about. I asked him why he was doing it and his reply was typical of the motor trade at the moment.He was stripping the van because it would cost £250 to repair the 1/4 panel, the van cost him £800, fixed it would retail at 1750k+vat. If he fixed, MOT'd, valeted and sold the van he'd not be making enough money on it. So he broke it for bits. Because of a scraped panel.

[AnthonyG]

If he's breaking it for bits, and I can imagine virtually everything will get sold and used - whats the problem? It's not as if its getting crushed.Breaking up stuff due to high parts prices and low values has happened in heavy commercials and agricultural machinery for decades.

[FredTransit]

Because again, that was all about money. The van was 4 years old, it will take another 16 years for the pollution emitted in creating it to dissipate, by then more vans will have followed it, and if they never turn a wheel their damage to the environment will already have been done. I'll blatantly post something stolen from another forum, which sums all this carbon footprint environmentally friendly stuff in a nutshell."The problem with Environmentalism is that, in many areas you don't need to use hard facts to convince people.In fact the absence of hard facts is actually to your benefit.Line up a few shots of Ice Sheets crashing into the sea, a couple of lost looking polar bears, get some stock footage of some flooded Cambodian villages and a dust bowl in Sub-Saharan Africa.Mix all of this in with some shots of freeway traffic in LA (Preferably at night), a power station pumping out steam from it's cooling towers and top it all off with a hazy shot of thye sun going down and you have a film about the environmental damage we are doing and how we must stop it now.Then you can follow the visuals up with a studio discussion on anything you want to get rid of or charge more for.Oh, and make sure that the Non-Environmental point is put over by a 'salesman' in a suit and the Environmental point is by a concerned and serious looking woman....The average person has their opinions formed FOR not BY themselves."So Joe and Josephine Public think (and are brainwashed to think) that driving round in an old banger is causing lots of fluffy wuffy polar bears to drown, so they scrap their Mondeo, buy a newer car which produces less emissions FROM THE EXHAUST , note that bit, and they believe they are saving the planet. IMO total bullshit. They are only going off Gov't figures and some self congratulatory ego trip, without taking into any account of manufacture, transport cost and all the other hidden things buried in the emissions of a new car.So the choice is yours ladies and gents. Would you prefer to stand up as a unified voice, with restorers, rodders, modders, veedubbers, race fans, dragsters, and people who work in all the motoring industries, or would you prefer to be told what you can and can't drive, and where you can and can't effectively go (LEZ etc) by a Gov't who seem to have little regard for facts, but lots of spin and eco-freindly bullshit?THINK ABOUT IT, do you love your hobby enough to want to keep doing it?

[Mr Lobster]

^ Very true and very well put.

[Richard]

The general public must have goldfish brains, we've heard all this before and the solution was to buy all the cars they are telling us to scrap now.

[FredTransit]

Well I could go as far as mentioning the fact we were told to buy diesel cos it's better for the environment. Now, looking at the LEZ apparently diesel is the work of the devil.

[r.welfare]

I'd say from a shite perspective, the high-pressure fuel pump failure rate makes diesel the work of the devil in my book. Even Mazda and Toyota ain't immune.

[FredTransit]

I'd say from a shite perspective, the high-pressure fuel pump failure rate makes diesel the work of the devil in my book. Even Mazda and Toyota ain't immune.

A what now? mine are running 2.5 DIs, and they don't have high pressure anything!

[Negative Creep]

I love the way CO2 is presented as the only harmful gas a car can produce. Does anyone honestly think that if we all drove low emissions cars the tax bands would stay as they are? I can see it in a few years when low emissions cars are more commonplace "oh actually our to scientists have just discovered that x is more dangerous, so we'll have to rearrange the tax bands based on that"

[garethj]

Looks like this will be announced in the April budget.Qualifying criteria will be:-1. Proposed car to be purchased, must be new or less than one year old.2. Emissions of proposed car to be purchased must be less than that of car to be scrapped.3. Car to be scrapped must be over 9 years old, complete with M.O.T. be capable of being driven to dealer's forecourt and must have been registered, for a minimum period [yet to be determined], in the name of the purchaser. What a waste of useable cars