Where it all started to go wrong for Rover - Jehova's Witnesses

[JohnDeere]

OK, tenuous connection, but the village Jehova's just came a calling. driving a Rover 400/45.  Which got me thinking (after hastily excusing myself and shutting the door).

 

From '89, Rover had incredible success with the R8 series, on the back of the SD3 beforehand.  Great looking, quality cars with decent (HGF excepted) engines, that were head and shoulders above the Escorts/Astras of the period.  These Rondas were aspirational, and buyers were willing to pay a premium.

 

Then Rover seemed to get greedy, or lazy, or both.  I remember seeing the then-new HH-R at my local dealer in Hessle in '95 and being astonished that a small, uglier car was being pitched into the larger Mondeo/Vectra class with a premium price tag.  At the same time, the 600 was being pitched against 3-series and A4s, with Rover totally failing to understand the idea that an aspirational brand was needed to justify those prices - while at the same time, the E36 was doing just that before BMW took over Rover and left it to fester.

 

Also at that same time, the Metro/100 was canned - I remember the same dealer bemoaning the fact that his bread-and-butter sales came from that model, even so late in its life, and there was nothing to replace it.  Those buyers of course flocked in their droves to K11 Micras and the like.

 

And the final nail in the botched plan was the launch of the new R3 200.  I test drove one of these when they first came out, with the full intention of replacing my R8.  Unfortunately it was tiny, noisy and had a rattling dashboard.  Terrible quality, small car, again being priced in the wrong segment.

 

Of course Shiters now love all of these motors, but looking back, it's really not hard to see how the dying days of the BAe/Honda model planning, and the subsequent failure of BMW to fix the problems led to a total lack of showroom appeal from the mid-90s, and was the start a long, steady decline ...

 

 

[lisbon_road]

In my opinion, the worst part was when BMW were trying to get funding for development and publicly said that the cars being made required improvements/investment.

 

And then wondered why no-one bought them.  As you say above, there was a round of model chopping that took out the Rover 100 and also the estate version of whatever a 200 was called at that time.  He said the same, that they might not have been perfect but it was a lot of cars lost.

[Sigmund Fraud]

OK, tenuous connection, but the village Jehova's just came a calling. driving a Rover 400/45.  Which got me thinking (after hastily excusing myself and shutting the door).

 

You should have invited them in, for a 'thought provoking discussion' and enthusiastically preached the word of Autoshite to them !

 

Best case scenario, they would be enlightened and join the forum. Worst case scenario, they would never turn up at your doorstep ever again

[forddeliveryboy]

In my opinion, the worst part was when BMW were trying to get funding for development and publicly said that the cars being made required improvements/investment.

 

And then wondered why no-one bought them.  As you say above, there was a round of model chopping that took out the Rover 100 and also the estate version of whatever a 200 was called at that time.  He said the same, that they might not have been perfect but it was a lot of cars lost.

 

The CityRover was mis-named, mis-priced and mis-specced.- no automatic must have lost a lot of sales. Had it been £4995 (and offered to them to test drive), Top Gear would have probably given it a rave review.

 

The demise of Rover is a national disgrace, up there with our bodged, accident-prone, lying nuclear industry and loss of armed forces - in order to pay the Yanks through the nose for the privilege of having their nuclear weaponry on our land, which we can't deploy without their say-so.

[cort16]

I think they did what Jaguar did until very recently and tried to use their previous heritage of building quality cars that sold to the middle classes to shift average cars.

When Jaguar brought out the X350 it was pretty much the most technologicaly advanced production car in the world but it still looked like it was made in 1974, which just isn't what people who're spending that kind of money are after.

 

The 75 suffered the same problem. Even though it was a nice car it looked old fashioned an was expensive next to a 3 series. It did get the BMW diesel engine but BMW crippled it to be less powerful than the one fitted to the 3 series. That's not fair really. I don't think it was one particular move that killed them it was more like falling down the stairs with each step bringing the closer to the end.

[wuvvum]

in order to pay the Yanks through the nose for the privilege of having their nuclear weaponry on our land, which we can't deploy without their say-so.

 

I'm pretty sure we do now have the launch codes for our nukes.  IIRC Thatcher saw to that.  They're still Yank-designed though.

[JohnDeere]

Having mentioned Jaguar, JLR is at least the success story from the remains of BL.  Land Rover in particular benefited from Ford technology in the Disco 3/4 and Freelander 2.  And with the later investment from Tata (ironically the makers of the god-awful ShittyRover/Indicar), JLR seems to have gone from strength to strength with some successful products (XF and Evoque in particular - realising that former will take a good few years to appeal here, and the latter probably never will).

 

Talking of CityRover, I saw two on Saturday, do I win a prize?

[Sloth in a bowl]

Talking of CityRover, I saw two on Saturday, do I win a prize?

Admit it, you were just very very drunk.

[forddeliveryboy]

I'm pretty sure we do now have the launch codes for our nukes.  IIRC Thatcher saw to that.  They're still Yank-designed though.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESIJ_C9mUBI

[Station]

I didn't think the 200 was that bad?

[dollywobbler]

Ripping up the deal with Honda, due to the BMW takeover, was where it all started to go wrong for Rover. Not that BAe were very good parents necessarily. I think they begrudged any development expenditure, which makes cars like the R8 and 600 all the more impressive. Anglicised Hondas seemed to go down very well, though ultimately I guess it wasn't much of a long-term strategy, especially once Honda had got the Swindon plant fully operational. Still, platform-sharing is all the rage these days. I would quite liked to have seen a Rover version of the Eighth-generation Civic. Perhaps it would have had a more sensible arse...

[forddeliveryboy]

Hadn't it "all gone wrong" a long time before that, when the Rover name had been trashed by zero-quality SD1s? There had been a question mark over them ever since, not helped by the K-series motors and their coolant problems. People sought out the Honda-engined Honda-Rovers, the marque simply didn't have real credibility, just modifying another maker's range.

 

Building Hondas was hardly a recipe for long-term success, surely? Didn't it say one thing - "we can't do it ourselves properly so we build someone else's and put our badges on them."

 

The last credible Rover is a P6, surely? Which isn't to say a 600 or 200 wasn't a thoroughly good car. Audi A3s are crap little things, sold on image alone - the image which is made by a company which builds some very expensive, pretty good machinery in the shape of the A8 and R8. And which once made some honest, tough, simple designs in the guise of the 80 and 100.

[JohnDeere]

Admit it, you were just very very drunk.

 

I hope not, as I was overtaking them at the time 

[RichardMoss]

 Not that BAe were very good parents necessarily. I think they begrudged any development expenditure, which makes cars like the R8 and 600 all the more impressive.

That was the real problem.  The R8 was a classy car and the 1.4 K series used in them was robust enough.  However, the R3 and HHR (200 and 400 bubbles) were cheap, quick fixes and lacked the class of the R8 series.  Look at an early R3/HHR and you can see that it doesn't look special any more. The 400 HHR actually looked REALLY dull, which was a shame because it drove well.

 

The look didn't get sorted until they became the 25 and 45 by which time it was too late.

 

Not replacing the Metro, Maestro and Montego was also a mistake - they lost the "value for money" buyers when they killed of the Austin-legacy range.  The sort of person who bought a Maestro was unlikely to buy a 400 because Rovers were perceived as being expensive (which was true, up to a point).  The MMM range also gave an economy-of-scale boost to the Rovers which must have help reduce overheads.

[dollywobbler]

The last credible Rover is a P6, surely?

 

Well, this is a difficult question to answer. Was the Favorit the last credible Skoda? Was the original Mini the last credible car to wear the badge? Both have gone on to great things, so I'm not sure credibility is all that important.

 

The P6 was undoubtedly the last proper Rover, but I'm sure its development costs were absolutely horrific, so you could argue that its development was the start of Rover's problems. Once it entered BL, it was properly doomed, but Rover could never have survived on its own anyway. Jaguar had William Lyons and his successors fighting hard for it to retain its individuality. No-one was doing that for Rover and instead it suffered by being mashed together with its main rival - Triumph. What emerged from BL wasn't really Rover anymore. It was just a brand.

 

Deary me. That's a lot of waffle. Sorry.

[JohnDeere]

Ripping up the deal with Honda, due to the BMW takeover, was where it all started to go wrong for Rover.

 

I think it was before that - perhaps at the point that Honda stopped providing decent base cars, which led to the HH-R.  Coupled with the crazy marketing and chronic lack of product investment beyond the badge engineering.

 

Two schools of thought on the BMW takeover.  One is that they went in and asset stripped (Land Rover, Mini brand) and never had any intention of making it work.  I don't buy this - that would have been a totally reckless way to spend 15 billion DMs.

 

The more believable scenario is that BMW didn't do their due diligence and inherited a hopeless case - then hampered it further in an attempt to avoid damaging the parent brand.  A model line-up that was obsolete, or based on Honda licences that they could no longer use, or both.  Inability to use BMW platforms as Rover needed FWD models.  And not enough sales volume to justify investing in good enough new models - leading to the R3 200 and 75 as the only new models - both of which fitted in awkward spots in the market and largely lacked showroom appeal.  Just at the same time the competition in volume cars was significantly hotting up - Megane, Focus, BMW's own move into volume, VAG, etc.

[forddeliveryboy]

Well, this is a difficult question to answer. Was the Favorit the last credible Skoda? Was the original Mini the last credible car to wear the badge? Both have gone on to great things, so I'm not sure credibility is all that important.

 

The P6 was undoubtedly the last proper Rover, but I'm sure its development costs were absolutely horrific, so you could argue that its development was the start of Rover's problems. Once it entered BL, it was properly doomed, but Rover could never have survived on its own anyway. Jaguar had William Lyons and his successors fighting hard for it to retain its individuality. No-one was doing that for Rover and instead it suffered by being mashed together with its main rival - Triumph. What emerged from BL wasn't really Rover anymore. It was just a brand.

 

Deary me. That's a lot of waffle. Sorry.

 

I'd say what is critical to a maker is its image and the authenticity and integrity of this. Without this, you can never make really good money or onvest in better products. Look at how BMW has made its fortunes, based on public perception of the badge.

 

New Skodas didn't appear to continue from the old. And VW/Skoda worked unremittingly to change the image - Fabias and Octavias were relaitvely quickly reconciled with mainstream cars by most of the public. To the ignorant, the phrase, "it's a VW underneath" meant all was well. This was ok because Skoda was owned by VW, and they were cheaper cars, and to many, better.

 

Rovers were trying to position their cars upmarket of Honda, yet even old people knew Hondas were better cars and bought those instead. Rover lost its identity - a fatal move - and were as good as lying about their cars. Skoda dealers were always honest, saying yes they had almost full use of the VW parts bin, but suggested they not only designed a better car around them but also put them together better.

 

Of course all this waffle is irrelevant conjecture, unless you're someone in Tata's marketing dept. There are billions of £ to be made in the car industry if you get it right.

[RobT]

Building Hondas was hardly a recipe for long-term success, surely? Didn't it say one thing - "we can't do it ourselves properly so we build someone else's and put our badges on them."

 

 

Perhaps not, but the look of the R8 in terms of trim/colour combinations was much better than the comparable Concerto which was just dull in my opinion.  My R8 416 looks a classy motor with the duo-tone blue over grey and lattice alloys, the (Honda) engine lets it down a bit as I see it.  But the odd specification of GTi automatic doesn't help, old giffer trying to be a boy racer is a tad silly!

[forddeliveryboy]

Perhaps not, but the look of the R8 in terms of trim/colour combinations was much better than the comparable Concerto which was just dull in my opinion.  My R8 416 looks a classy motor with the duo-tone blue over grey and lattice alloys, the (Honda) engine lets it down a bit as I see it.  But the odd specification of GTi automatic doesn't help, old giffer trying to be a boy racer is a tad silly!

 

I agree totally, Rover did a bloody good job of Anglicising Jap taste. Also improved suspension for our roads, didn't they? I think Honda learned a lot from our industry. It's the same old story - lose our way with general laziness then allow Johnny-foreigner to swoop in and pick up the best bits for free, or for almost free.

[Cavcraft]

I only need one more thing to be mentioned now for house on Autoshite WhatkilledRover bingo.

[saucedoctor]

I only need one more thing to be mentioned now for house on Autoshite WhatkilledRover bingo.

Derek Robinson.

 

 

HOUSE!

[saucedoctor]

Derek Robinson was the bastard lovechild of Lord Haw-Haw and Anne Robinson. He was trained from a young age by ze Germans, specifically the Quandt family, to bring down British Leyland and its successors so that BMW could get Stalag Oxford. Inspector Morse found out, but snuffed it before he could do anything.

[Guest Breadvan72]

I is just find out that Rover 75s were sort of small Bimmers underneath, apparently.  I is not know this before.  

[dollywobbler]

The Rover 25 is on a shortened BMW 7-Series platform.

[forddeliveryboy]

[forddeliveryboy]

[forddeliveryboy]

[forddeliveryboy]

[forddeliveryboy]

[forddeliveryboy]