Engine flush......any ideas? Modern Volvo d5

[smellmycheese]

Ok my seven grand, 55 plate, bought it two months ago, vulva xc90 piece of Shiite went bang last week. It's the supposedly bulletproof, used for years throughout the range, 2.4 dizzler, 5 pot donkey. After destroying two injectors (150 each) to get the cam cover off a cam follower has been spat out. The whole cam cover is covered in what can only be described as old, hard, chocolate fudge type oil. It looks like it's never had an oil change since it's left the factory although it's full main dealer history with 108k up it??? No wear on the cam, sump coming off tomorrow to check if oil pick up pipe is full of this gunky shit and then a good scraping session of the cover. I"m looking for suggestions to flush the engine and has anyone any experience of working on the insides of a d5 motor?? So far the only thing we can think of is the old fashioned 50 / 50 diesel/oil mix or some off the shelf engine flush. Any help greatly appreciated

[bub2006]

I would be considering going back to where you bought it from. Surely only 2 month into ownership with service history but what you found under cover would be a cause for concern. Not fit for purpose maybe?

[Lacquer Peel]

Wrong forum. SCRAP IT.

[smellmycheese]

Bought it from a disabled guy privately, he gave ten large for it a year ago from riverside Volvo in hull. A month after he bought it the gearbox went noisy and was replaced under warranty.... 8k on brand new box was a big plus point. Maybe it's just a wanker of a car put together by some stoner on a Friday, or maybe the boys doin the servicin just stamped the book and kept the bits for their foreigners. Who knows but I've gotta fix fix.

[bub2006]

Sorry then i cant say what would be best to flush block through. Its a new ish car so no doubt the wrong thing will knacker something else.

[Junkman]

What you need, sir, is a tatty 240 for less than what two injectors for that newfangled tosh cost.

[Micrashed]

Ive always used cheap own brand 10w40 in the past if i have felt it needed a flush. But then I havent flushed a modern like the Volvo donk

[smellmycheese]

Wrong forum. SCRAP IT.

thanks for that, very helpful. I do own a whole range of old shite but thought I"d try some of this modern fangled stuff as I've got a baby on the way, safety is paramount, blah blah blah. Believe me I've learnt my lesson and this pile of wank will be going and never again will I own anything with an e.g.r valve, a diesel particular filter or common fucking rails. Modern stuff is bollocks, fucked by emissions laws and euro crap. However I"m into it and must fix so any help is really appreciated. Wish I"d bought an old 406, always fancied a green one!

[Dead_E23]

I've got a D5 in my daily.  It uses a really high-spec (fully synthetic, low ash, low sulphur, etc) oil which is expensive even if you get the Euro Car Parts own brand stuff.  You might be seeing what happens if it doesn't get that.

 

I would most likely try a normal flushing oil first and leave it idling for half an hour or so.  Trouble is, that gunge could be everywhere in the engine, hiding in all the little oilways, so it might not come out easily.   Difficult to know what else to suggest beyond that - short of a big stripdown, which sounds like overkill.

[Barry Cade]

No Shit. The oil for my Volvo is 50 sheets for 4 litres. YoU WHAT?

 

Thank feck it's got 3 years free servicing, give me time to save up for it's first oil change.

 

I'd bang some Forte through it. If you are worried, phone their technical helpline,record the call and if it all goes Pete Tong, take them over the bridge.

 

http://www.forteuk.co.uk/product.php?id=43/Advanced_Formula_Motor_Flush

 

Srrsly though- I used it in a Smart that everyone said was terminal, and it did the biz, and freed up the sticky rings restoring very nearly zero compression on the middle cylinder up to normal spec. Didn't fix the timing chain rattle though

 

 

Forte website....

VOLVO - S60 2003 - Power steering stiff and noisy operation. The fault was cured by replacing the fluid and adding Power Steering Treatment.   VOLVO - V70 2400cc auto TD 2003 100k - Loud noise from automatic gearbox when pulling away. The fault was cured by replacing the auto box fluid and adding Automatic Transmission Treatment.   VOLVO - S40 1800cc VVTi - Noisy variable valve timing. The fault was cured by using Clean & Protect, 45 minute Advanced Formula Motor Flush carried out adding Oil System Protector to the new oil.   VOLVO - XC70 2500cc Turbo 2002 94k - Excessive oil burning and blue smoke. The fault was cured by using Clean & Protect, adding 2 x Advanced Formula Motor Flush for 1 hour at idle, Oil System Protector added to the new oil and 2 x Advanced Formula Gas Treatment added into the fuel tank. After a 40-50 mile road test the smoking and oil burning had stopped.   VOLVO - V50 2000cc 2004 67k - Excessive oil burning, half a litre every week. Suspect oil burning due to bore lacquering and sticking piston rings. The fault was cured by using Clean & Protect, 45 minute Advanced Formula Motor Flush carried out adding Oil System Protector to the new oil and adding Advanced Formula Gas Treatment to the fuel tank. The owner reported after 2 weeks the oil burning had stopped.   VOLVO - S60 2.0L turbo 2001 120K - Erratic idle, airflow meter replaced, fault not cured. The fault was cured by cleaning the throttle body with Air Intake cleaner.  

[gordonbennet]

I suspect the FSH means an oil change about every 15 or 20k miles, thats cobblers but its about normal these days.

 

Black Death is making a comeback, and IMO its virtually all down to ridiculous oil change intervals.

 

Somehow i don't think a flushing oil is going to deal with this type of crud build up, i reckon its going to be a combination of scraping digging and jet washing.

 

Quite agree with the sentiments about modern Diesels, i ran Diesels from the early 80's until 2 years ago, we now run 2 LPG converted petrol cars and until the thieving dick turpins in the treasury decide to raid LPG for more tax revenue, its my fuel of choice for the forseeable.

 

Modern Diesels just ain't worth the bother any more for those who keep beyond makers warranty.

[twosmoke300]

Ha , black death. That's what I have always called what sprinter cdi engines get.

When the injector seals leak and fill the cam cover valley with black carbon Shit which takes days to clean off.

[scooters]

I supported the family in 2012, after my illness by repairing TDCIs in this condition.

 

The issues you have are running related and not manufacturing.

 

Old giffer owned and likely family owned before that, I should expect lots of short journies and cheap diesel.

 

Sounds like you have a clogged up intake system and at least one leaking injector. An engine flush is a waste of time as are the various potions, until you have done the following -

 

You will need -

12 cans carb cleaner

old clothes you want to throw out

new fuel filter

egr blanking plate

blow torch

injector seals

injector puller

injector seal tool kit including reamer, maybe grinder and a plug

torque wrench

you might need stretch bolts as well, some cars use them to hold the injectors in place (merc)

 

First off - 

change fuel filter - it will likely be full of snot, this is an indicator of use of cheap diesel and low miles  the snot is bacteria, it shits water and this can cause running and emission issues. 

Inlet manifold off - it will likely be caked with a nasty horrible black tar like substance, this is exhaust residue form the egr valve - modern diesels pump it back into the engine to be burnt off, problem is if you do short journies and always refill with tescos finest then the inlet can cake up - this will eventually effect running as the ECU dumps in more fuel - the car flips into limp home mode and if you take it to a dealer they will replace the injectors because their laptop will tell them it is an injector fault, this will cost you £1200 and it won;t fix the problem. So  clean the inlet manifold out - if it is plastic - use carb cleaner and a bottle brush, if steel, use the blow torch to burn it off.

 

Next up the EGR Valve, this can be replaced, cleaned out or blanked off depending on the MOT regs for the model of car. It will likely be full of crud and jammed open, this causes a vicious circle.

 

Now time to tackle the 'black death' 

for those who haven't come across this before. Black Death is where at least one injector seal fails, it is quite common on diesel cars where the injector is dropped in and clamped in place rather than screwed into the block. Because common rail diesel engines have variable spray injectors to optimise performance, the injectors are usually dropped in for alignment issues. Diagnosis is usually the presence of a horrible smelly black tar like substance on top of the engine/rocker cover. In some cars this will also cause a smell in the cabin, really nasty chemical smell. Eventually the car will start to experience running issues and then stop working as the ECU tries to work out what is going on - hence Black Death. Mercedes are very prone to this especially the engines found in Sprinter vans and some of the larger cars. One of the prices you pay for good fuel economy and power and one of the reasons why I personally prefer petrol cars these days -anyway, here's what to do:

 

This is a tricky job but straightforward, ensure you have all the tools, and read up as much as possible/ you tube/ volvo oc etc. I won;t describe how to do it as it is different with each engine but essentially you are removing the injectors (usually with a puller), then removing the seal ring from the injector seat, cleaning the injector seat and then fitting a new injector seal the wee plug is to put into the injector hole beyond the seat to stop crap getting into the engine. an air cleaner helps here to blow crap out of the injector hole. Ensure you number the injectors and recall their alingment on the block - a wee mark can help. be careful not to damage the injectors as they are expensive, give them a wipe down with carb cleaner but be careful of the nib end. TDCI injectors use the nib end to vary the spray pattern in the cylinder as the ECU commands to improve combustion.

 

To remove the crap from the top of the engine - easiest way is to contact a local soda blaster, he'll charge about 100 quid but it will take the top of the engine back to new. Or you could just hit it with carb cleaner - there is an argument for the latter because when you come to sell it it proves the injector seals have been done.

 

There are so many variables with TDCIs it has only been in the last 2-3 years that these cars are beginning to start playing up as they develop faults over 100k. These are almost always related to the emissions control equipment. 

One look at the smoke coming out of my 1977 Series 3 88" land rover shows how much diesel makes when burned, Even the best systems will fail eventually and it is pretty much always due to EGR Valve faliure and intector seal issues.

 

anyway

 

good luck

Edited January 24, 2014 by scooters

[twosmoke300]

Scooters , nice write up , never thought about a soda blaster, do you get that done before you take it all apart?

[fordperv]

Wow I didn't know modernz got black death, the worst case of it is what I saw on a mk6 1.4 cvh escort with big tax/test which I bought for less than bridge money, where there was that much it was up around the rocker arms an inch thick inside the cam cover, safe to say the cam had seized and snapped the belt, I ended up relaxing the head for a good spare I had and popped the sump off giving everything a good clean, then gave the car to my dad for a workhorse which he used for 4 years, the good old tinworm took it in the end it weighed in for more than it owed, completely agree with gordenbennet servicing is the key

[Lukas]

 

never again will I own anything with an e.g.r valve, a diesel particular filter or common fucking rails. Modern stuff is bollocks, fucked by emissions laws

 

 That´s the only good point you may learn from this misery.´Many new commonrail-engines die because the injector-seals are f***** and the oil get´s hard.

[scooters]

It depends on the finish you are looking for. I "ahem" run a business that uses soda blasters as well as other systems to remove paint/shit/oil etc from metal, stone and wood work which we can then coat for the client if they want to. We bought our first 'rig' in October 2012 and quickly realised that we had a technology that could be used on live industrial sites as soda does not hurt bearings etc or plastic and glass so it can be used safely to strip a car without having to remove trim/engine/brakes. Most of our work is industrial and architectural but we still do a bit of automotive.

 

If you want spic and span aluminium and steel then removing components before blasting will achieve this - if you just want to clean up the black death, then you don;t really have to. I would point out that soda will remove oil and paint as well so if the engine block is painted, even with a very hard paint, it will take it off. The only thing soda struggles with is thick epoxy type rubbery coatings like underseal. Soda blasting is expensive because soda is expensive. When comparing it to other paint removal techniques then it needs to be  looked at against a chemical dip as a similar finish is produced. Personally, I would glass blast the body as this is considerably more cost effective than soda. You're looking at around £1200-1500 for soda for a car the size of a P6. Glass would be under 1K. Other media includes : calcium carbonate and sodium silicate as well as various plastic 'gels' (synthetic soda) these are all cheaper than soda but soda is the only one that won't damage bearings etc as it isn't an abrasive per se. Forget things like dry ice blasting and sponge blasting - good systems but very expensive to use. Also, don;t believe any crap you read on the internet about automotive soda blasting damaging subsequent paint etc.. it is bollocks and originates in Nevada where soda blasting isn't a good idea because in temperatures over 40 degrees bicarbonate of soda becomes soda lye and highly corrosive. also, you take the flipping stuff off before you paint as you would do with any other system.

 

We recently consulted with a metallurgist about issues with industrial steel work that had rusted from the inside despite being sand blasted back to white (abraded) steel. Interestingly enough he told us this is caused by the highly abrasive blasting which pits the metal and on a microscopic level drives the chlorides that cause rust deep into the steel. You put paint on it and 3 years later - bollox! The steel looks clean to the eye but is actually highly prone to corrosion returning. If you go down this route you need to use a product that kills the chlorides before you coat, Rustbuster do one that is very effective. If you blast steel with soda, the soda removes the rust but to our eye it doesn;t look as if the rust has been removed as it leaves a dark grey stain where the rust was. This is actually the natural colour of steel and despite appearances will not cause rust to return. This is a fairly recent bit of research carried out in the thrilling read that is Surface Engineering magazine and carried out by some american university. As a result of this our gas industry clients are now looking at moving entirely over to soda blasting from sand blasting. Good news for us as we are the only business in the UK and indeed in Europe that uses this system on live gas refineries..(blimey nobody smoke). So I would urge anyone who is using a blasting system, if it isn't soda then be sure to kill the chlorides before painting/filling etc. as not doing this will cause the paint to fail from the inside despite the steel appearing sound.

 

Should any shitters wish further info drop me a line. although we don't actively seek automotive business at the moment if anyone is local to West Lothian and, from April, Hexham then I am sure shitters rates for this sort of stuff can be agreed.

[scooters]

 That´s the only good point you may learn from this misery.´Many new commonrail-engines die because the injector-seals are f***** and the oil get´s hard.

 

all our company vans and trucks are pre common rail - either XUD, 2/300td, 2.5 Land Rover NAs or banana engines. means they are all over 15 years old but they are easier to fix, cheaper to run and because of the lack of electronics can be used on live gas refineries!

[Lukas]

^^ What I´m talking about! Don´t change to modern diesel-engines, that´s a world full of pain when they get old.

[RichL]

This would have been one of the first cars on 18k service intervals. 0w30 fully synthetic oil to ACEA A5/B5 spec MUST be used, and will (hopefully!) have been if taken to a Volvo dealer.

 

I found out myself late last year while trying to find a decent 03-06 plate S60 that some sellers ideas of a 'full service history' vary wildly from mine. I was looking at petrols and none of them had any evidence of being serviced according to the manufacturers specifications. I would have spent the best part of a grand on all of them I looked at sorting stuff so I gave up.

 

Are injector seals a big problem on D5's now? I know of a few engines where it's well known, didn't think this was one. I remember the injectors failing on the early ones though.

[scooters]

This is the first instance of a D5 black death I've heard of. Mind you. Prior to the common rail system, oil burning Volvo cars were rare

 

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[RichL]

Any news on this? Had a word with a mate I used to work with and It seems short journeys and lack of oil changes/wrong oil will sludge the D5.

[smellmycheese]

yes mate, the news is my engine's in the bin. three injectors completely butchered to get rocker cover off, big ends have spun on the crank fucking it right up. cam follower been spat out which apparently warps the head.engine coming out monday after two days of undoing anciliarys, drilling out spot welds to get sub frame off etc... anyone who's got a second hand motor wants two grand plus without injectors so the plan is to rebuild my own depending on what bits i need when its stripped. To sum up its an expensive nightmare, car has 108k up it with full history. Dont buy one!

[RichL]

Thats shit. Swedish diesel engineering FAIL.

[brickwall]

I do have a moderns 2002 Volvo C70 Hairdresser. In fairness, it's never gone wrong except for a rear spring going but I'm hearing alarming stories about Volvos recently. Post 2010 mostly.

[Lukas]

My Volvo S80 was the worst car I ever had. Was from late 1999 though.

[skattrd]

My Volvo S80 was gr9 ...I think it was 99 as well, VAG 5-pot tdi, before the D5's.

[Lukas]

Mine was a 2.4 petrol. Had it for 5 month and loved it when it drove. Sadly, this happened almost every month:

 

 

Had massive problems with the electronic components. I was sick of not knowing if I´ll get back via train or S80 when driving away from home, so I had it repaired (again!) and sold it to a nice man from Nigeria. He phoned me one week later, because it died (again!) at the middle of a busy road in Vienna.

 

Most comfortable, but worst car I ever had.