Advanced Driving

[Guest]

20kg of various assorted shit inc out of date raod maps.

Bit's that have fallen off car

Bit's that replace bits that may fall off

Stuff to hold on bits that are in danger of imminent departure

Stuff to deal with bits that will never fall off let alone bloody move.

Spare wheel

Wheel brace

Fluorescent jacket - go abroad a lot and rather look a prat alive than a dead cool dude as travel M25 every day

Fire extinguisher

Spare bulb kit

AK47

Dead IAM instructor

[ashmicro]

I've only ever encountered a couple of IAM persons who were twats (we had a couple in the Larne Motor Club), but I made sure to bring up crossing your arms on the wheel.

 

IAM bod : "You must never do that! Who taught you that it was OK?"

 

Me: "My instructor from PSNI Driving Section. We were hooning 4 ton armoured Land Rovers around Ballykinler army camp at the time".

 

IAM bod: "Oh!"

 

A couple of my mates did the Advanced Test to get cheaper insurance, but I never bothered.

[Joseph]

On the subject of all the elitist attitudes which you may have come across from some 'advanced drivers' - If you are considering taking any form of advanced driving course, don't let these self-righteous individuals put you off, as the majority are down-to-earth folk. I'd have given up with the human race years ago if I let all the knobs bother me!

[Partridge]

You know it does beg the question, why do they teach you that shuffling bollocks? I find it’s easier to steer accurately and smoothly if I cross my arms, and much safer as a result, surely?

[Junkman]

You know it does beg the question, why do they teach you that shuffling bollocks? I find it’s easier to steer accurately and smoothly if I cross my arms, and much safer as a result, surely?

 

They sure haven't seen this yet:

 

[Partridge]

A pimp handle! I saw one of them on a Caddy Fleetwood But how are they relevant to shuffling?

[Felly Magic]

I drive one handed most of the time, one of my worse driving habits, even when it comes to driving 40 feet of bus. I find it quicker, and more comfy, especially as on some buses it's a few turns lock to lock

[Joseph]

The reason for the wheel shuffling:

 

I once heard of a man who needed thirty three operations to re-set the bones in his shattered arms after being hit by the airbag, whilst cross-armed during steering...

[Felly Magic]

That's a new one on me Joseph. Sounds like something for mythbusters. I've heard of burns from airbag detonation though. Driving is all about using your loaf, and keeping your eyes open, and all the IAM course is, is basic common sense, sadly which is lacking in many drivers out there. Too many drivers out there, once they get behind the wheel, their brain switches off.

 

I've seen some right clowns on the road around here, especially in my last job, as I was driving on average 300 miles a day, 5 days a week

[Junkman]

The reason for the wheel shuffling:

 

I once heard of a man who needed thirty three operations to re-set the bones in his shattered arms after being hit by the airbag, whilst cross-armed during steering...

 

That nonsense about shuffling vs. not shuffling was a religion long before the airbag was invented. So I'd dismiss this as urban legend.

[Richard]

The shuffling dates back to the days when steering was much lower geared, you would tie yourself in knots if you didn't shuffle.

 

I do know a real life example of a driver's arm being broken by an airbag, a customer in my friend's garage. The bump didn't damage the car at all but it made the airbag fire, which broke the windscreen with the driver's arm. That was the story anyway, maybe she was just carrying a swan in the car.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Anyone who calls it "shuffling" is either doing it wrong, or has been watching somebody else doing it wrong.

 

Done correctly, it's a smooth, flowing movement*. It's plenty fast enough for most situations and is actually pretty elegant.

 

 

 

* Goddammit, I can't think of a different word that doesn't make it sound like I'm talking about diarrhoea.

[HillmanImp]

I think I'll just leave this here.

 

http://z0r.de/L/z0r-de_3714.swf

[dollywobbler]

I've done the IAM thing, but I recently became a MiDAS approved instructor. Means I can teach people how to drive a minibus. Seemed to be an opportunity for the instructor to tell me how great Roadcraft is, even though it tells you stupid things like "don't down-change when approaching traffic lights because you might lose control while down-changing." Apart from the odd bit of hypocrisy and idiocy, I found it very illuminating and it improved my driving no end. Does make me look at other people's driving in a new light, but I don't go around correcting them because that would be incredible rude.

 

The thing I find surprising is how few people look in their right mirror before turning right. It's kind of lesson 2 when you're learning to drive. An entire family was killed recently near here because some twat was overtaking two cars at a time. He didn't spot that the first car was turning right but if the person in that car had actually glanced in the mirror before turning, they might have spotted the now-locked-up idiot overtaking and pulled out of the manoeuvre.

 

This chap taught me that feeding the wheel is the ONLY way to do it, but MiDAS seems fairly relaxed about it actually.

[Junkman]

This is how it should be done:

 

[dollywobbler]

What I find silly is that the stay-in-gear approach is only for traffic lights. If approaching a junction, the recommendation is still to down-change. I always prefer to be in the right gear at all times. I find it silly that the rules have changed just because brakes are better these days. Even if you downchange, the vehicle should still use naff all fuel as it's still on the over-run.

[Felly Magic]

Plus if your way ahead is clear, you don't have to practically stop to engage the correct gear. As I said before, its just using your loaf

[dollywobbler]

What do I gain by downchanging? The ability to just accelerate away if the junction is clear or the lights change. Plus I'm not having to coast - which is apparently the greatest evil in the world. If I'm in the wrong gear, I'll have to dip the clutch to stop a stall. There's no point saving clutch life out here in the hills anyway as a few hill starts will do far more damage than a downshift. I suspect they changed the rules about downshifting just to make life easier for numpties with piss-poor clutch control.

[Cavcraft]

Wow, there's DEFO some H8RS on this thread! I'd give it a go (Advanced Test, I can already doing hating) if it could teach me something worthwhile. Surely any extra bit of knowledge it can impart is a good thing/

 

+1 on the not looking in right hand mirror, Ian. I still remember some twat in a Jag being a nano-second away from running into a minibus full of kids 'twixt Pant and Welshpool a good few years back as he was overtaking me and half of Shropshire/Powys in one fell swoop.

[Spiny Norman]

Where a lot of these 'advanced driving' courses seem to fall down is their insistence on using what nowadays are seen by many as un-necessary and outdated methods of car control.

It's often the thing that gets people arguing the toss about their validity on car forums across the land. "He wants me to feed the wheel and only change from 4th to 2nd, therefore everything he says is crap" The fact that a lot of the trainers are retired Plod gets some folks' backs up as well.

 

At the end of the day, when it comes to the physical process of actually manipulating the car's controls, so long as you do whatever you do smoothly and without any un-necessary sudden inputs, you'll be fine. If you feel comfortable changing down the gears on approach to a junction, do it, if you can't/won't use the "correct" method of steering then so long as don't end up in a hedge, what's the problem?

 

The way these courses help is the mental adjustments they try and instil into you.

The looking further ahead, the use of mirrors, planning a route through whatever changing traffic situation develops in front of you as you drive etc, in other words, defensive driving.

It's no accident that some people can drive 30k miles a year without incident and get 40mpg while for others each drive is a series of near misses and loud horn blasts and ten fewer mpg. Doing one of these courses will help make you a safer, more economical (in terms of vehicle wear & tear as well as the more obvious fuel consumption) driver. That's why it's a good idea, not for the badge or even the discounted insurance.

[dollywobbler]

At the end of the day, when it comes to the physical process of actually manipulating the car's controls, so long as you do whatever you do smoothly and without any un-necessary sudden inputs, you'll be fine. If you feel comfortable changing down the gears on approach to a junction, do it, if you can't/won't use the "correct" method of steering then so long as don't end up in a hedge, what's the problem?

 

That is very much my approach. I like both hands on the wheel as much as possible but if you cross hands, I don't really care as long as it's smooth and everything is obviously under control. As it happens, I often feed the wheel, but not always. I get really annoyed about some of the pithy rules that actually are not important. Drive smoothly, with proper use of the gearbox and without racing everywhere and you're doing fine. It's a lack of observation that annoys me more than anything else. So many accidents are the result of carelessness and not paying attention.

[cms206]

The closest I've gotten so far is doing Pass Plus (aged 24, at Motability's insistance as they now require it for all drivers under 25).

 

"So what do you do for a living?"

"I drive coaches"

"Oh. This is a bit pointless then, isn't it?"

 

 

I don't claim to be a great driver; I used to drive like a fucking lunatic most of the time I'm afraid, though the Volvo and, oddly, the Senator have calmed me down a great deal. In saying that driving anything that looks like my 740 does tend to mean you get a wide berth everywhere.

 

As for feeding the wheel and changing down coming up to junctions/lights etc, I tend to find that in the car I do tend to feed the wheel but it simply doesn't work in a bus - especially as my daily drive is a 1986 Leyland Tiger weighing the best part of thirteen tonnes with no retarder, an air operated clutch, a patchy gear linkage and power-assisted steering. As a result you really need to keep the revs up as much as you can or you get two thirds of the way round a corner and the bastard steering locks up...

[Bobthebeard]

I took an advanced driving course as a part of becoming a driving instructor. Was admittedly 20 years ago, but found the instruction useful. Hated being a driving instructor by the way, and sacked it after a year due to working for BSM. The manager of the branch I worked at was an epic Mong. But that is by the way.

The driving techniques etc were all usually good, and have served me well over the years. The main problem was the Advanced Driving Instructors.

Almost always they were hard work to get on with. Usually sarcastic and difficult to relate to. Without exception they seemed to have chips on shoulders. Got the impression that they had failed at something in a previous life and ended up doing what they did as a last resort.... Though that was only an impression, generally!

I passed the driving course but never really trusted the way the system worked. Still don't really.

Good advice and useful skills, but taught by, in my experience, pompous sarcastic, and usually male, instructors. Usually very overweight, had a selection of regular stop burger vans that always seemed to be on the training route etc. Felt a little like a fat mans taxi service.

 

Put me off a bit!

[M'coli]

I did the IAM course more than 20 years ago, but never sat the test. I knew that as soon as I passed the test, I'd go back to some "bad habits" - free wheeling, arm-crossing, that sort of thing - and that it wouldn't have that much influence on insurance. It did however teach me about observation, anticipation and "correct" road position (rather than the racing line!).

 

Most of the instructors were ex-polis, and one or two were a good laugh, but a lot of the other members of the group I went to seemed like killjoy-jobsworths.

[Felly Magic]

@ Bob, sounds exactly like all PCV driving instructors! Fat, perverted, full of their own self importance, and know every greasy spoon within a 100 mile radius.

[Bobthebeard]

@ Bob, sounds exactly like all PCV driving instructors! Fat, perverted, full of their own self importance, and know every greasy spoon within a 100 mile radius.

 

Not just me then! Was similar when I took my motorcycle test. Did an intensive course over a week but seemed to spend most of it sat outside burger vans!

Passed my test but put on half a stone... Both the instructors looked like sumo wrestlers and can see why!

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Student_mohawk_baker has said all that needs to be said about these courses, 100% sensible advice there.

[Bobthebeard]

What do I gain by downchanging? The ability to just accelerate away if the junction is clear or the lights change.

 

psychic are you ?or driving something with so much torque it can cope with a covering gear 2 away from the optimum ?

 

and people with 'piss poor clutch control' treat it as a binary process the clutch is either in or out...

 

Spam again? Oh for fucks sake....

[Bobthebeard]

Student_mohawk_baker has said all that needs to be said about these courses, 100% sensible advice there.

 

??

Heck Mr B, I acknowledge that you are one senior guy on here, but all that needs to be said? Really? Is that your final word?

Guess end of thread then....

Ps. Can we be friends?

[Spiny Norman]

The main problem was the Advanced Driving Instructors.

Almost always they were hard work to get on with. Usually sarcastic and difficult to relate to. Without exception they seemed to have chips on shoulders. Got the impression that they had failed at something in a previous life and ended up doing what they did as a last resort....

 

The bloke that did my advanced training at BSM was one of the most unlikeable individuals I have ever met.

Fat, obnoxious and rude, he stank of failure but relished the position of power he had somehow managed to achieve within the company and failed totally to put into practise any of the company's suggestions about how to motivate and encourage his students.

To this day whenever I think of him, I have the Spitting Image song "I've never met a nice South African' run through my head.

 

That's what's wrong with the whole notion of advanced driver training in this country. There is very little incentive and lots of reasons not to bother, ie the arseholes you often have to deal with.

People want their little teenage Jimmys and Jemimas taught the basics as cheaply as possible, just enough to pas the basic DSA test and no more, but are the first to complain when little Jimmy chucks his Corsa into a queue of pensioners outside the Post Office because he can't actually drive...

 

I don't know the figures, but I'd be surprised if much more that 1% of the drivers in his country voluntarily undertake any form of driver training (unless stipulated by an employer - or the courts!) once they've torn up their L plates.