GM joining with PSA

[ashmicro]

[What do you mean by this? What is 'getting it right'? Citroen had a separate factory to produce their hydraulic system parts - the only automobile mass production line in the history of the automobile to be manufactured to MICRON tolerances. It's so precisely made in fact that they didn't require sealing rings; the fit was so close to perfect that it sealed by fit alone. That is aerospace-grade manufacturing and Citroen produced it since just after the war long before any of the modern (meaningless) ISO 90001 stuff. I would say that this one French manufacturer 'got it right' already - 60 years ago. (if by getting it right you mean ultra high quality manufacture)

 

What I mean by getting it right has sod all to do with needlessly building suspension systems from aerospace-grade components when steel will do the job admirably fine.

 

What I mean by getting it right is NOT building cars with nigh-on impossible to repair "issues" due to (1)piss-poor design and (2)cheap shit components that frequently aren't the same on 2 cars that are on the production line one after the other.

 

What I mean by getting it right is NOT designing cars to pass questioanble crash tests and then just stuffing everything else in whatever way it will fit causing (1) above.

 

The people I now work for managed ultra-high quality manufacture 60 years ago, so you'll understand if I'm not that impressed with Citroen suspension.

[dollywobbler]

Sorry, when you're dealing with over 2000psi of pressure, I'm not sure a lashed-together bit of steel will suffice actually.

[ashmicro]

Why do you need 2000PSI if you're building conventional suspension?

[dollywobbler]

Why do you need 2000PSI if you're building conventional suspension?

 

Conventional suspension is shit boring! Citroen just fell foul of public ambivalence. We can thank Ford for the lack of imagination seen in more modern car designs. The French used to lead the world in innovation. The world would have been much poorer without that.

[flat4alfa]

True. But your CX is on the blink again, look!

[Father Ted]

True. But your CX is on the blink again, look!

Its Frech, its probably heard about the merger and has withdrawn its labour in protest.

Next week it'll be rioting and looting in Bretange.

[j-j]

chill out

What I mean by getting it right has sod all to do with needlessly building suspension systems from aerospace-grade components when steel will do the job admirably fine.

Admirably fine? Steel suspension uses up more structural space on the chassis, has a narrow range of load-carrying ability, is not as absorbing, does not contribute to the car's brakes' regulation, requires heavy modification to change its characteristics to a sportier set up and is actually HARDER to work on requiring spring compressors etc to get things out. Hydro suspension when depressurised (a task taking 2 minutes) renders the suspension components free of load forces and then bits can be simply unscrewed and lifted off, I've done it many times due to interest. Metal springs on old cars can't even approach hydropneumatic suspension for ability. On modern cars that CAN achieve as good as if not better suspension they have several layers of complexity added on top of the metal springs such as electro-adaptive dampers, air springs and lots of rods and bushes and multi link set ups in order to achieve this. I am therefore not impressed with metal suspension.

 

What I mean by getting it right is NOT building cars with nigh-on impossible to repair "issues" due to (1)piss-poor design and (2)cheap shit components that frequently aren't the same on 2 cars that are on the production line one after the other.

I know Citroens very well and I know of no impossible to repair issues. Even the DS's hydraulic gearbox it's -just- hydraulics, not witchcraft! Hydraulics like on a JCB or aircraft. As for different components on one production line, perhaps that is true - who knows? (I have never heard of it specifically on Citroens) but firstly, it could be said the same for many cars of any make - the question I need answered is what difference does it make? do they perform differently? What type of components were they? electrical? I've had 3 CXs and they all had pretty much the same electrical parts depending on spec. so again I'm disagreeing based on experience. Or have I just been lucky Also what piss-poor designs are you citing? I don't think you can back any of your stories up pal.

What I mean by getting it right is NOT designing cars to pass questioanble crash tests and then just stuffing everything else in whatever way it will fit causing (1) above.

Your last statement here is plain illogical: You didn't define 'questionable crash tests' so cannot use it to support any other argument (simply unsound logic). As for fitting things in whatever way they fit - did you actually mean that? Coz frankly, I'd prefer things to be installed where they fit. The statement is illogical too coz you're using it to 'support' (1) above and a that's circular argument as neither statement is independently supported and neither is seen to support the other.

The people I now work for managed ultra-high quality manufacture 60 years ago, so you'll understand if I'm not that impressed with Citroen suspension.

Sorry I don't understand the conclusion here: your employer (who is it?!?) did that greatness 60 years ago so.... you appreciate quality? I think that's what you're driving at? But somehow that links to your not being impressed with something else that's shown to be high quality. That seems like an oxymoron to me but maybe I'm thick.

 

Not 'getting' Citroen's genius is understandable though.

 

Anyway, I love all cars but love Cits the most! Wading through floods with raised suspension, changing tyres in HALF the time, not having to take everything out a full boot to get the spare, all-round disk brakes even on the cheapest model ever since 1971 (GS), Powered brakes, anti-dive geometry, industry leading ergonomics, first uses of composite body materials and so on, all from one brand - it's that characteristic that's sadly decaying and might finally vanish in this GM-PSA merger.

 

There's no space for one innovative marque because ALL car marques are innovative now albeit in a totally homogenous way.

 

Sorry folks I haven't had a rant on here for years!

[Mr_Bo11ox]

OK, you like citroen suspension, we get it

[ashmicro]

To be fair, I wasn't really having a pop at Citroen, more Renault.

 

To clarify :

 

Questioanble crash tests - NCRAP

 

I can't believe you've never heard of French cars especially having 3 or 4 different typres of eg. brake calipers on the same MY cars.

 

Piss poor design's I'm citing - Scenic headlamp buld, and didn't someone on here have a major 'mare simply removing a brake hose from a Peugeot, mainly die to it's routing.

 

I don't understand your counter-argument to my supposedly circular argument.

 

And since you asked nicely, I work for this company (which used to be part of Shorts.)

 

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Countries/Un ... o/Defence/

[j-j]

Thales! That is good stuff

 

Well I know the scenic bulb madness because I used to work in halfords of an evening and Scenics as well as Meganes were a 'mate to do bulbs on as was the first KA. But at least it was a challenge!

 

OK, you like citroen suspension, we get it

 

aye man.

[dollywobbler]

Ok, I'll concede the 'several types' fitted to one car. Thankfully latterly it seems. 2CVs are delightfully standard. Peugeot 306s are a nightmare apparently. Perhaps it's because of the over-complicated suspension that the BX is also generally not afflicted with 'many' parts from several suppliers, bar the Lucas/Bosch diesel fuelling. Mind you, flaky glovebox hinges are a trait shared with the Peugeot 309...

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

I like that rant. It's not just the hydropneumatic suspension- Citroen have come up with lots of interesting ideas. The fact that their creativity was watered down by the Peugeot acquisition is a bit of a shame, but the alliance with Opel is almost bound to put paid to it.

 

I would also like to point out, and sorry if I'm repeating myself here, that carmakers don't really do innovation these days. The most innovative automotive organisation out there probably is R. Bosch GmbH, and that is why innovation is so 'homogenous'.

 

Modern Renaults (with the possible exception of vans...and, of course, Renault Trucks which are part of the Volvo Group which does not make Volvo cars!)are the work of the devil, and they're succeeding in making Nissan shit, too. PSA may have quite a few problems, but Renault are a complete joke...

[ashmicro]

Bosch make some good stuff. My lawnmower is bloody ace. It' cuts the grass with germanic precision, and at the same time hoovers up all the grass clippings, leaves, twigs and catshit. This is achieved simply by the shape of the disc that the blade is mounted on. Simple but effective ideas like that really impress me. I had another one that was supposed to do that, but it simply shat the grass clippings out all over me instead.

 

My favourite Bosch toy of the moment is a big mad garden-muncher thing. You can stick fairly thick branches and the like into it and it just OM NOMs them. You don't even have to shove them on down, the helicoil blade thing grabs them and pulls them in like the Sarlaac Pit. And it cleans itself too. I'm actually pretty disappointed when I've used up all my cuttings, as it means I can't play with it anymore.

[j-j]

would also like to point out, and sorry if I'm repeating myself here, that carmakers don't really do innovation these days. The most innovative automotive organisation out there probably is R. Bosch GmbH, and that is why innovation is so 'homogenous'.

 

-I'm with you there - is there a car maker that doesn't use Bosch parts? And it's true; there is a real sense that Bosch products are exceptional quality. I don't know for sure but maybe all the LED lights and Hybrid electrical components are created by or linked to Bosch.

 

It's funny, I work for Cummins engines in the ReCon Quality engineering department and the core engine parts truly have some very old origins, the electrical parts though are mostly all Bosch! fitted to engine designs with origins in the 30s.

 

Anyway, GM merger would get my vote if they brought Saab back!

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Fair play to Bosch, they clearly are very clever people. The problem is that everyone else has outsourced creativity to them!

[gtd2000]

People mentioned Ford...who is behind most of the development of Ford's current lineup of diesel engines? That's right, GM's new ally, who also makes cars in a joint venture with Toyota!

 

New ally?

 

GM and Toyota have a long history of working together:

 

In the mid-1980s, Toyota took over the Fremont plant, one of GM's worst, a factory known for sex, drugs and defective vehicles. And as part of an historic joint venture, Toyota turned the plant into one of GM's best, practically overnight.

 

e.g.

 

 

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

People mentioned Ford...who is behind most of the development of Ford's current lineup of diesel engines? That's right, GM's new ally, who also makes cars in a joint venture with Toyota!

 

New ally?

 

GM and Toyota have a long history of working together:

 

I was referring to PSA in that sentence.

[Ross_K]

People mentioned Ford...who is behind most of the development of Ford's current lineup of diesel engines? That's right, GM's new ally, who also makes cars in a joint venture with Toyota!

 

New ally?

 

GM and Toyota have a long history of working together:

 

I think he meant Toyota Aygo/Citroen C1/Peugeot 107 in that comment.

 

Don't forget that PSA are sluts for Mitsubishi as well.

 

Citroen C-Crosser/Peugeot 4007/Mitsubishi Outlander anybody? For added shite points, they're made in an old DAF factory in Holland.

 

 

PSA - the easy girl behind the bike shed...

[ashmicro]

/\ is that the plant (Holland) that faces closure? There was something on the news about a week back.

[gtd2000]

 

I was referring to PSA in that sentence.

 

 

In mitigation, I'd like to point out it was long past my bedtime when I made that post

[Ross_K]

/\ is that the plant (Holland) that faces closure? There was something on the news about a week back.

 

Yeah that's the one - NedCar I think the place was called.

[face]

That'll be a shame-diddly-ame if they close that.

[M'coli]

/\ is that the plant (Holland) that faces closure? There was something on the news about a week back.

 

Yeah that's the one - NedCar I think the place was called.

 

[Ross_K]

Class plate. Nobody outside of Glesga would get it though...

[dollywobbler]

So, how long is it going to be before all diesel engines are PSA then? If Peugeot, Citroen, Ford and Mini are already using them, and GM are likely to (bringing Vauxhall and Opel to the table, possibly Chevrolet?) that doesn't leave a lot. Especially if Renault admit that they've become utterly shit at diesels and ask their French chums to let them use theirs.

 

Is it too late to just cancel everything and go back to having small car companies run by odd-yet-passionate blokes who wore proper suits, used Brylcreem and had their own unique vision on how a car should be? Looks like we're just heading towards one big super-manufacturer making bland facsimilies with different badges on.

[Father Ted]

Proper cars designed by men like this:

 

 

Built by men like that:

 

Driven by men like us:

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Citroen Hydropneumonia suspension was a technical dead end. Just like Hydrolastic. It was great in the 1950's compared to Morris Oxfords, but steel sprung suspension was developed to be better as far back as the early seventies - the Alfasud handled like a dream and had a superb ride. Peugeot perfected it with the 405 and there have been plenty of cars with excellent ride and handling, but don't have stupid spheres and rusting hydraulic pipes. That sort of crap costs money to make and the public don't care anymore. The last proper Citroen (i.e without any Peugeot bits) was the CX, and that bankrupted them.

 

As for a huge merger - well, good luck. I like modern Vauxhall/Opel stuff but wouldn't give garage space to anything modern and French because it's all pretentious crap - all weird stying and fake chic with fuck all of any substance. They will probably end up with a huge unmanageable conglomerate with GM/Frog infighting, just as happened with the Austin-Morris merger in 1952. It will all go down the pan in 10 years anyway.

 

Meanwhile, Mercedes Benz, BMW and VAG are carrying on as normal. They know how to make products that people want to buy, how to make them at the right price and how to make a nice fat profit. The mass production stuff will just fight a war of attrition.

[morris_ital_lover]

Meanwhile, Mercedes Benz, BMW and VAG are carrying on as normal. They know how to make products that people want to buy, how to make them at the right price and how to make a nice fat profit. The mass production stuff will just fight a war of attrition.

 

That is the most important point.... no matter what they do GM and PSA are merging two crap sets of designers together who will continue to make reasonably crap cars at silly prices for what they are. My grandma's C4 is a totally useless pile of shite, it has not one redeemable feature. Meanwhile my parents are still VAG addicts, their current Golf is in it's 9th year and so far nothing major has gone wrong, it's good on juice and at least has the common decency to feel well built.

 

If they want to turn around their fortunes they need to seek out the reasons why some of their ranges are rubbish and go around issueing P45s/need to improve notices, not get another team in who are also failing.

[oman5]

As someone already mentioned, it is inevitable that (in the west, at least) there are only going to be a couple of mega corporations encompassing all the major brands. to my mind the solution to ailing car firms is to build something that people actually want to buy.

For example, Renault cut their UK range in halflast year due to sales only just in triple figures.

Compare this with for example, Kia, who are currently selling every single Rio 1.1 CRD they can build. A car with free road tax, claimed 88 mpg, a 7 year 100,000 mile warranty and its a shade over 11K brand new.

I know dynamically its a bit beige, but the when Chrysler launched the PT cruiser they could not keep up with demand-why? because they dared to be different. it was something that didn't look like everything else on the road but with no complex engineering to frighten people off.

I've never bought a brand new car, but if I was to be tempted, it would be : 1/no more than 8 grand. 2/diesel with mega MPG. 3/couldn't give a stuff if it does not have cup holders, sat nav or electric prostate massager. 4/as basically engineered as possible.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

As has been mentioned not long ago, it could well be too late for GM. They're starting to turn out some VAG rivalling stuff now but it's been too long coming.

VAG got it right but they started 35 years ago. The GTi started a trend and added shine to the worthy but dull Golf. The Golf became trendy and the image rubbed off on the rest of the VW stuff gradually. The cars might not be that much better than the competition but the image is there, and that's everything. Audi and Skoda are both rags to riches success stories that have taken 18 years but they're now both untouchable brands.

 

As for Ford, I don't see what they can do to avoid the inevitable fate of GM. They also make some decent cars with zero image, and they rather stupidly threw away their hard earned competition heritage and thus have very little Youth appeal. Like Vauxhall, they don't have the cheapness/warranty of the Koreans, the snob value of VW or the legendary reliability* of the Japanese.

 

As the three German manufacturers have discovered, you can sell millions of cars a year and not spoil the publics appetite for more.

 

 

*real or otherwise