Further brands for Jaguar Land Rover?

[Guest EccentricRichard]

With the continuing revival of Jaguar Land Rover's fortunes, and the news that Solihull won't close after all, is it time JLR looked at expanding their range of products with more brands? I know this forum isn't really concerned with new cars, but I'm curious to gauge people's reactions to my ideas...

 

Given that the XJ is becoming lower, sportier, harder-riding (I don't have a problem with that, personally), would it make sense to use its excellent all-aluminium platform and engines to produce a roomier, less swoopy, less sporty, softer-riding Daimler range to take on the S-class, Bentley Continental et al?

 

At t'other end of the spectrum, could it be worth reviving Rover or Swallow as makers of small(er) but still classy cars? My own vision for the future of Rover is somewhat unconventional (driven by the need for a decent ride, decent handling and a real USP): RWD platforms, but with Citroenesque hydropneumatic suspension (or something like it, anyway) to give a soft, wafty ride, adjustable ground clearance and pretty good handling too (the HP Citroen C5 rides and handles bloody well, and with that sort of setup combined with RWD, well)... standard limited-slip diffs across the range (also at Jaguar)... Volvo-sourced inline five and six engines? JLR could then give Volvo some badly-needed chassis setup expertise...

 

Maybe there could even be room for Rover and Swallow? Use Swallow to take on MINI, Smart, the forthcoming Lotus city car (if it ever happens) while using Rover to take on BMW, Citroen, Audi, etc...? Just emphatically NOT with all that stupid retrofrippery shite you get on the MINI... mind you, BMW will be using the MINI's platforms to develop a range of small premium NON-retro cars to take on the Audi A1, so I daresay a Swallow could do well to take them on...

 

What are your thoughts? As I said at the top, I know this forum isn't really concerned with new cars, but I'm curious to gauge people's reactions to my ideas...

[Tayne]

.

[ChinaTom]

A nice range of side-cars.

[Louise2cv]

E-R, I know elsewhere you've said you don't have a licence, but do you drive "off the public highway"?

 

I'm just getting confused with statements like this:

 

that the XJ is becoming lower, sportier, harder-riding (I don't have a problem with that, personally)

 

the HP Citroen C5 rides and handles bloody well

 

...is there something you're not telling us? Interesting motoring-based day job or something... I'm not taking the piss, I genuinely intrigued. You type these opinions and they come across with such conviction even though many on here have said "tell us about driving when you can drive" ...are you having the last laugh? Have I missed the joke?

[Guest EccentricRichard]

I saw that heading and saw your name and expected a load of old pish.

However you have made some vaguely decent points.

The big Daimler is a good plan but it all goes wrong from there.

 

MAINLY BECAUSE

JLR (owned by Tata) don't have any rights to the Rover name, the Chinese have got that.

JLR (owned by Tata) don't have any links to Volvo anymore.

I don't know who owns the Swallow name but I'll bet your mates in Bavaria hung onto.

LSD's as standard across the range? That won't happen whilst the manufacturer can charge extra for it on the upper models.

 

Nope, when MGR collapsed, Ford bought the Rover brand to protect Land Rover's interests, and Tata bought it off Ford with JLR. That's why the Chinese have Roewe. JLR is still talking about a working relationship with Volvo, too. Swallow is still owned by Jag, because Jag got out of BL long before BMW bought it (BMW only have MINI, Triumph and Riley).

[Guest EccentricRichard]

E-R, I know elsewhere you've said you don't have a licence, but do you drive "off the public highway"?

 

I'm just getting confused with statements like this:

 

that the XJ is becoming lower, sportier, harder-riding (I don't have a problem with that, personally)

 

the HP Citroen C5 rides and handles bloody well

 

...is there something you're not telling us? Interesting motoring-based day job or something... I'm not taking the piss, I genuinely intrigued. You type these opinions and they come across with such conviction even though many on here have said "tell us about driving when you can drive" ...are you having the last laugh? Have I missed the joke?

 

Nope, just secondhand info, I'm afraid

[morris_ital_lover]

JLR (owned by Tata) don't have any rights to the Rover name, the Chinese have got that.

 

Sorry to break the bad news but... Ford bought the Rover name in the MG-R sell off to prevent potential legal issues with chinese firms (hence the aweful Roewe brand) over the use of the land rover name (there was previously an agreement with MG-R that they would go their separate ways and rover wouldnt make 4x4s). However, I could potentially see in the next 3-5 years (after this rover would be a dead brand as they disappear off the streets and out of our conciousness not worth reviving) rover being relaunched as a cheap alternative to the jags to take on the low end 3 series/insignia/cheap execs range of cars.

 

m0rris

[Guest EccentricRichard]

JLR (owned by Tata) don't have any rights to the Rover name, the Chinese have got that.

 

Sorry to break the bad news but... Ford bought the Rover name in the MG-R sell off to prevent potential legal issues with chinese firms (hence the aweful Roewe brand) over the use of the land rover name (there was previously an agreement with MG-R that they would go their separate ways and rover wouldnt make 4x4s).

 

m0rris

 

True dat.

[ashmicro]

Eccentric is right. The Daimler thing has been talked about for ages, but more seriously of late. The Ovlov tie-up for Indo-China is increasingly looking like a "goer", and the Rover name is in the kitty, perhaps for future use. It was talked about (although binned) to replace the X Type with a Rover-badged car.

[morris_ital_lover]

Eccentric is right. The Daimler thing has been talked about for ages, but more seriously of late. The Ovlov tie-up for Indo-China is increasingly looking like a "goer", and the Rover name is in the kitty, perhaps for future use. It was talked about (although binned) to replace the X Type with a Rover-badged car.

 

 

IIRC, there is a probelm with the daimler name, since it linhas the same origins as the Daimler-Chrysler name, which limits it from many markets.

 

m0rris

[Guest EccentricRichard]

Eccentric is right. The Daimler thing has been talked about for ages, but more seriously of late. The Ovlov tie-up for Indo-China is increasingly looking like a "goer", and the Rover name is in the kitty, perhaps for future use. It was talked about (although binned) to replace the X Type with a Rover-badged car.

 

 

IIRC, there is a probelm with the daimler name, since it linhas the same origins as the Daimler-Chrysler name, which limits it from many markets.

 

m0rris

 

Not sure Daimler-Benz could make that one stick: both Daimlers were started in the 19th Century by members of the same family... and it's not like Benz sells cars under the Daimler name either.

[morris_ital_lover]

Yeah.. just checked and it looks like I got it confused with something else , apologies all round!

 

m0rris

[Guest EccentricRichard]

Yeah.. just checked and it looks like I got it confused with something else , apologies all round!

 

m0rris

 

As for Daimler, it seems it was originally licensed by Gottlieb Daimler to some UK businessmen back in the 19th Century, so maybe you're right about M-B restricting the brand's use...

 

If there are problems with Daimler, could they perhaps instead get the rights to a name like Armstrong-Whitworth or Coventry-Victor (still around today providing spares)?

[Guest EccentricRichard]

I'VE JUST HAD A BLOODY BRILLIANT IDEA. Jaguar owns the rights to the Lanchester name - if there were any problems with Daimler, they could just use that... but somehow "Lanchester Double Four" doesn't quite have the resonance of "Daimler Double Six", does it?

[ashmicro]

There are no issues with the Daimler name. This was done to absolute death on one of the Merc forums a few years ago. (When I had the W203 Flammenwerfer)

[Guest EccentricRichard]

There are no issues with the Daimler name. This was done to absolute death on one of the Merc forums a few years ago. (When I had the W203 Flammenwerfer)

 

OK... still, just as well they've got Lanchester in the contingency bank!

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Why have more brands? Why bring back 'dead' ones? Why not just build a decent car with the brand you've got, let the same people design and build it as have designed and built your other models, and you will get the 'company DNA' free of charge. Farting about with brand names is a mugs game, just ask GM.

[scaryoldcortina]

Why have more brands? Why bring back 'dead' ones? Why not just build a decent car with the brand you've got, let the same people design and build it as have designed and built your other models, and you will get the 'company DNA' free of charge. Farting about with brand names is a mugs game, just ask GM.

 

or the BMC, even...

 

[Albert Ross]

There's the thing... "Brand"... Not a car, no, a label. There is no reason why a decent reliable car cannot be built these days, but manufacturers are tripping over each other to provide the latest gadget or some such shit in the tiniest heap of plastic crap you can get... Is it reliable? No. Does it look good? No. Why? It was "designed" by a committee. Just as a horse would be a camel if the same applied. ER, or whoever you may be, your internet persona really is getting on my tits. Why would we, as shiteists be bothered by "branding"? Are you related to anyone else on this forum?

[Pete-M]

Heh, Jaguar could always make something evil to attack BMW / Audi / Mercedes and call it the SS.

 

That'd put a cat amongst the pidgeons.

 

Personally, I don't think that all the big Jags need LSDs. Mine has one, which is ace when on a country road giving it some beans, but it's also a bit of a ball-ache in town in the rain as it's got the power and torque to spin the rears rather easily. This is a disadvantage sometimes when exiting side roads as if too much right pedal is applied both rears spin up, the traction kicks in and it can bog down for a second. If it didn't have an LSD it'd wheelspin more but the t/c would have more of a chance of sorting it.

 

Don't get me wrong, the LSD is a mega-bonus when hooning, but it's more tail happy at low speeds than it would be otherwise. The whole Jag thing is that they're meant to waft around town very effectively, are good on A-roads, are big luxury cruisers on the motorway and they can be pretty good for a huge car on the slightly twistiers stuff. With the XJR having stiff suspension and an LSD it's not a wonderful town cruiser, it's not bad, but it's not a big wafty limo and it's not a full on sportster either. It tramlines too much on lumpy bumpy lanes to be lots of fun. It's superb at well surfaced A roads and motorways, although in the 'slow' lane it's a bit of a handful in wagon ruts as it darts about constantly.

 

I think Jag should move the sporty thing forwards but they need to keep the luxurious ride and effortlessness. That, to me, is the essence of modern Jags, the relaxing nature more than the ability to out hustle things. The new 503 bhp XJ looks like it's pretty sorted as the steroidal one, and that should be more than enough in modern traffic.

[Mr Lobster]

I know this forum isn't really concerned with new cars

 

Bingo.

 

As for new brands, theres as much chance of Jaguar launching a new brand, least of all in the current climate, as there is of me opening the fridge door to find Girls Aloud in there doing something sordid with the chicken I am saving for supper.

[Cavcraft]

Heh, Jaguar could always make something evil to attack BMW / Audi / Mercedes and call it the SS.

That'd put a cat amongst the pidgeons.

 

Personally, I don't think that all the big Jags need LSDs. Mine has one, which is ace when on a country road giving it some beans, but it's also a bit of a ball-ache in town in the rain as it's got the power and torque to spin the rears rather easily. This is a disadvantage sometimes when exiting side roads as if too much right pedal is applied both rears spin up, the traction kicks in and it can bog down for a second. If it didn't have an LSD it'd wheelspin more but the t/c would have more of a chance of sorting it.

 

Don't get me wrong, the LSD is a mega-bonus when hooning, but it's more tail happy at low speeds than it would be otherwise. The whole Jag thing is that they're meant to waft around town very effectively, are good on A-roads, are big luxury cruisers on the motorway and they can be pretty good for a huge car on the slightly twistiers stuff. With the XJR having stiff suspension and an LSD it's not a wonderful town cruiser, it's not bad, but it's not a big wafty limo and it's not a full on sportster either. It tramlines too much on lumpy bumpy lanes to be lots of fun. It's superb at well surfaced A roads and motorways, although in the 'slow' lane it's a bit of a handful in wagon ruts as it darts about constantly.

 

I think Jag should move the sporty thing forwards but they need to keep the luxurious ride and effortlessness. That, to me, is the essence of modern Jags, the relaxing nature more than the ability to out hustle things. The new 503 bhp XJ looks like it's pretty sorted as the steroidal one, and that should be more than enough in modern traffic.

 

 

Jaguar started out as a company called SS but they dropped this (for obvious reasons) sometime around WW2. I think (but don't quote me) SS stood for Swallow Sidecars.

[Albert Ross]

It was dropped as Mercedes already had a car called the SS.... Big white thing, red wheels IIRC

[pogweasel]

 

As for new brands, theres as much chance of Jaguar launching a new brand, least of all in the current climate, as there is of me opening the fridge door to find Girls Aloud in there doing something sordid with the chicken I am saving for supper.

 

Is it that time again?

[Guest Leonard Hatred]

Girls Aloud should be marketed as an alternative to ipecac syrup.

[Mr Lobster]

Is it that time again?

 

Yes. Its always that time

[Guest EccentricRichard]

Why have more brands? Why bring back 'dead' ones? Why not just build a decent car with the brand you've got, let the same people design and build it as have designed and built your other models, and you will get the 'company DNA' free of charge. Farting about with brand names is a mugs game, just ask GM.

 

Because some brands just can't be stretched that far... it would be ridiculous for Aston Martin to build a small city car. Oh, wait...

 

Jaguar shouldn't try building a supermini either - which is why the Swallow brand would be useful for that. Jaguar shouldn't build a big barge to take on Rolls, either, as they need to make their brand image more youthful. That's where Daimler/Lanchester comes in. It's also why BMW bought Rolls-Royce, Volkswagen bought Bentley and Lamborghini, etc...

 

I understand your point about badge engineering entirely - GM learned that one the hard way, as did BMC/British Leyland, and now it's getting stupid at Volkswagen, where they're talking about deliberately cheapening Skodas to prevent them overtaking the core brand, which sounds like a very British Leyland way of doing things. However, what I'm talking about is NOT badge-engineering: it's about a more subtle marketing strategy. Like it or not (I suspect that, this being Autoshite, we all agree on disliking it), marketing is necessary.

[fiatdaft]

i was going to mention the real reason the cygnet came about,but i'm sure once the xtra factor has finished E.R. will tell us.

[Guest EccentricRichard]

i was going to mention the real reason the cygnet came about,but i'm sure once the xtra factor has finished E.R. will tell us.

 

Oh, please. Anything with Simon Cowell on it is enough to make me run a mile... yes, I do understand that AM need to lower their average CO2 emissions across the range thanks to the EU - but there are other ways of doing it. They ought to offer the V8 engine in the DB9/DBS/Rapide. They ought to use the Eaton supercharger on the V8 (same as Jag do on what is fundamentally the same engine) too. There are more clever ways of going about it. Dare I even suggest a twin-turbo V6 for the Vantage? The V12 is, after all, basically two Ford V6s stuck together... if they could use the re-engineered petrol V6 from the Jag XF, maybe with turbos, it'd make sense. After all, the Vantage's main rival is the Porsche 911, with a mere 3.6 litre engine as its base model powerplant...

[Inspector Morose]

talking about deliberately cheapening Skodas