A frames, and VOSA

[nigel bickle]

Yesterday the inevitable finally happened,I got a tug by Traffic, in a large VOSA trawl.

 

I thought you might find the outcome interesting?

 

I was towing the Estafette pickup with the BX - an obvious tug (-Esta being twice the size of the BX) together with a total lack of trailer board (I know..)but it did have an ON TOW plate across the rear..

 

Approach was friendly -aided by 2 previous meets with Paul (the VOSA bloke) -nearly old mates now..

Traffic plod checked the legality of both- they are, so we sat on the grass bank and discussed legalities. It was fun

 

His arguement was that, as over 750kg, it HAD to be braked -I countered that I was travelling slower than 40 (I was when I saw them) therefore legal.

Additionally-they are still openly for sale without the daft brake pedal addition, which I said was only available with the larger 3500kg A frame).

 

Having scrupulously checked the mounting/fixture-and finding it sound -he was totally nonplussed - so he called both Area Managers- and we all sat on the verge -chatting.

No animosity -I was curious on the legality . T/Pol couldnt believe it -& retreated to his car.

 

In the end -they ''knicked me for no rear lights'' - issued an immediate Prohibition Notice requiring a new MOT (-agreedy pointless since they work if you sat in the drivers seat). That however-would be illegal...

 

They then 'escorted' me to a local trailer centre- where I purchased a trailerboard -and they issued a Cancellation - all issues now clarified. LEGAL -and free to go.

 

However -I gave them my details and asked for a 'ruling' - because the best minds in VOSA(south) didnt know.

I'll let you know -when I get it.

 

Funnily -I was stopped again 5 miles north by another VOSA check. You should have seen his eyes gleam when I offered the new Prohibition. Sadly it wasnt right to delay in puncturing this windbag -with the Removal form.

 

We've all views.

I put mine across that it is the safest form of vehicular transportation-and they reluctantly accepted my position.

They agreed it was properly attached- so no issues there. The vehicles were both legal(phew) & the Esta was being''recovered''.

We discussed the 'Emergency stop' position -but they had to accept that a trailer (or dolly) wouldnt improve issues-and could make them worse.

 

Paul knew I had a 4 wheeled dolly (seen me, offduty!), I confirmed I have a trailer- but wanted to keep weight on the BX to a minimum. No argument was raised by any to this position.

 

So there you go. Adefinite maybe. Clear as mud.Views welcome (but lets keep it positive).

 

Just damn glad I didnt see them on the way back -when little of the above applied! Did have a nice shiny trailer board though!!

[warren t claim]

How do braked A frames work?

[Station]

Glad to see these jobs-worths still wasting everyone's time trying to get some kind of conviction.

[dieselnutjob]

what's an Estafette pickup?

[Station]

Think it's probably an 11 wheeled potato peel powered Renault that was only available in some obscure numbers in an obscure eastern European country.

[flat4alfa]

I like these pomme de terre-powered véhicules utilitaire

 

clicky pickup

[Cavcraft]

Interesting stuff Nigel. Just out of nosiness, was the Estaffete taxed, MOT'd and insured?

[nigel bickle]

Blimey -i wasnt expecting that. I thought you lot all knew your motors!!

 

Sure, taxed insured MOt'd.Slavering rozzer would have had me but for impeccable paperwork. Checked tyres/handbrake etc etc.Asked VOSA if yellow headlights were legal -happily affirmed.

 

Nowt wrong -as he soon realised when I stood there grinning broadly.

 

[Cavcraft]

Good stuff. I only asked about MOT/tax/insurance is that some people still swear you can shift stuff on A-frames with none of those things.

 

I'd imagine because you have a brain and didn't look like some 17 year old chav it helped your cause, as I'm sure being polite to them must have helped.

[Lankytim]

None of the stuff I "A" frame has Tax, M.O.T or insurance. I always ensure that its "roadworthy" though. Surely if it has no driver its just a trailer?

[chaseracer]

The Plod who overtook me slowly on the A34 near Oxford a while back, as I A-framed three-quarters of a knackered 2CV from Basingstoke to Stafford behind the XM, just pissed himself laughing and accelerated away...

[Cavcraft]

None of the stuff I "A" frame has Tax, M.O.T or insurance. I always ensure that its "roadworthy" though. Surely if it has no driver its just a trailer?

 

Alas not Tim. If all four wheels are touching the deck it's needs tax/MOT/insurance and be on legal tyres too. Suspended tow (i.e front or rear axle off the floor) is ok but I bet they'd still nick you if the tyres were bald.

[Hertz]

Interesting one this. My friend has a towing "dolly" where 2 wheels are off the ground. Is that OK to pull a non MOT'd/Taxed and Insured vehicle then? He has had people say to him that it's not and that as 2 wheels are touching the road it needs to be fully legal. Other people say it's OK as per Cavette's post above.

 

Has anyone got a definitive answer?

[Cavcraft]

Only one axle on the road=legal. All wheels on the tarmac=illegal. I had that from VOSA themselves once, though there are lots of grey areas with them including all the horse shit about beavertail recovery trucks being MOT exempt.

[seth]

I have previously wondered at what point a car ceases being a car and becomes a four wheel trailer. A bare, stripped, rolling shell is closer to a steel box with a wheel at each corner than a car.

[pogweasel]

I have previously* wondered at what point a car ceases being a car and becomes a four wheel trailer. A bare, stripped, rolling shell is closer to a steel box with a wheel at each corner than a car.

 

Was that moment of wonderment coincident with A-framing an engineless Farina past about a thousand met woodentops...?

[seth]

Was that moment of wonderment coincident with A-framing an engineless Farina past about a thousand met woodentops...?

 

I had had the thought prior to that event but I suppose only in preparation for it while hoping to persuade some daft bugger it was a sensible thing to do.

[dieselnutjob]

You are a brave man to tow something as big n heavy unbraked behind a BX.

[nigel bickle]

But its not big/heavy-or they'd have knicked me. 1300cc

 

Unlike the journey home....

[whitevanman]

Thats very interesting nigel, I got done a few years ago for an unbraked A frame, There point was the one they made to you to start with, with the A on it it becomes a trailer and needs brakes over 750Kg.......

 

Billy, surely a 4 wheeled car trailer doesn't need an MOT?, when they pulled me they were only bothered by the lack of brakes, not if it was MOT'd or not ( very much NOT }

[Cavcraft]

Thats very interesting nigel, I got done a few years ago for an unbraked A frame, There point was the one they made to you to start with, with the A on it it becomes a trailer and needs brakes over 750Kg.......

 

Billy, surely a 4 wheeled car trailer doesn't need an MOT?, when they pulled me they were only bothered by the lack of brakes, not if it was MOT'd or not ( very much NOT }

 

 

A trailer is a different matter chief, I was referring to cars being towed on A-frames sorry.

[whitevanman]

Thats my point, a car fitted with an A-frame becomes a trailer and trailer rules apply, thats what the Vosa Twats said to me when I got tugged.

[Cavcraft]

Ah, that's a new one on me then. I just went off what VOSA told me tbh, as you'd like to think they know what they're on about, even if at times they don't!

 

To be fair there plenty of people who A-frame all manner of neglected old tat all over the shop and they never seem to have any bother so I suspect a lot of it is down to whoever pulls you at the time-or not as the case might be.

[dieselnutjob]

on the other hand....

either it's a trailer or it's a car, it can't be both.

So, either it needs brakes, or it needs an MOT, but they can't ask for both.

In this case VOSA asked for tax/MOT which means that they have classified it as a car. Once they have done that they can't really then go back and complain about the unbraked trailer thing because they asked for tax/MOT and therefore it's a car.

Also, I got dollied home a few weeks ago by the AA (see this viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9507 ) My car is over 1500kg and with the dolly as well it's probably nearer 1700kg. Can a Renault AA van tow a 1700kg unbraked trailer legally? I suspect not.

I think it's that tax/MOT that saved you. I also suspect that if you could rig up brakes but didn't have an MOT then I bet you could play it that way as well (and win). But with no tax/MOT and no brakes they've got you.

[Lankytim]

I remember many years ago a mechanic mate of mine had an uninsured untaxed and unMOTd clunker parked outside his flat for months. He got away with paking it on the road by attatching a towrope between it and a legal car parked infront. The police confirmed that they couldn't do him for anything as it was technically under tow! Eventually the local kids vandalised the old clunker and bent its rear numberplate round, meaning the rozzers could atleast give him a ticket for no rear numberplate!

 

Thats what he told me.. anyway..

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I totally agree with DNJ, at the end of the day nobody knows the letter of the law on this one. if you tick enough of the boxes (lights, brakes, tax/MOT, reasonable weight balance, tyres, speeds, attitude etc) you'll probably get away with it even with a pull, if you leave some key ones unticked you probably wont, but whatever you do I reckon theres a small risk of having an extremely bad day if theres an A-frame involved. I will continue to use mine and harp on about the benefits of them as I reckon they are the bo11ox!!!

 

The fella who brought my Xszara back from france reckoned he'd a-framed stuff behind his Transit recovery truck all over Europe for years and had never had the slightest bit of bother.

[seth]

on the other hand....

either it's a trailer or it's a car, it can't be both.

So, either it needs brakes, or it needs an MOT, but they can't ask for both.

 

But it wouldn't need brakes if it was as a "trailer" weighing less than 750kg.

[dieselnutjob]

true, but 99.9% of cars are over 750kg

[seth]

true, but 99.9% of cars are over 750kg

 

There's a lot that would be less than 750 (particularly older ones) if you removed engine/box/interior/anything that doesn't help it roll along the ground.

[scaryoldcortina]

true, but 99.9% of cars are over 750kg

 

There's a lot that would be less than 750 (particularly older ones) if you removed engine/box/interior/anything that doesn't help it roll along the ground.

 

problem is that the 750kg rule doesn't refer to the mass of the trailer, rather its MGW (max gross weight) which means a 750kg unbraked trailer is rarely bigger than a 4x5 box..