Citroen Hydropneumatique 1954 - 2018 +++ An attempt at a tribute thread +++ Caution: André's Asylum inside!

[forddeliveryboy]

That's very well said, Skizzer.

 

I think it was in the early 80s when a British motoring journalist dared say something like this in respect to big Citroëns; Half the motor industry wouldn't be able to engineer with such precision, the other half would struggle understanding the technology. The same fella talks about the finest, most sweated-over racing Mercedes-Benz then describes it as merely the laborious handicraft of gifted mechanics compared with the mass-produced DS.

 

It took over a decade and a half beyond the Peugeot takeover for the 2cv and CX to be killed off, and with them vanished subtleties some of which even Sorbonne Professors of Cunning missed. I could rave on about the amazing logic and genius which emerged from Levallois until the keyboard wore out. I won't, but can you manage just four more paragraphs?

 

When I see a latest hugely expensive S-class riding sleeping policemen just like a CX, with every suspension option possible and the chip-heavy computing power required for the cameras, sensors, rams and the rest, it reminds me how effective, simple and long-lasting the mechanical hydraulic system was, once Citroën developed LHM. And the mega-buck Mercedes system doesn't work properly over 81mph, or something.

 

With typically French insouciance, the company left the system unchanged for years and years - after all, how can you improve on perfection? The 1990s electronically-controlled Hydractive system was an attempt to make up for more expensive mechanical solutions which had been ditched - it worked very well, most of the time, but uses cheap, conventional chassis technology. A sorted XM with DIRAVI is a good drive. Almost as good as its strut-brother BX with softer rear spheres fitted.

 

French roads had by then become so smooth that they overlooked the 55 profile tyres, cheapened spheres, over-firm springing and so on which would jar sensibilities which drove beyond tarmac perfection. Unless you regularly loaded a vehicle very heavily, steel springs once again made more sense, perhaps exactly what PSA were aiming for. They should be awarded the GM prize for killing off fine European marques, even though they took their time.

 

It took a lateral-thinking, LHM-inspired Aussie art lecturer to develop the system for the 21st century, applying it to the needs of modern roads so that instead of creating a suspension which could glide over poor roads at high speed, one which could twist and turn with the stiffest while allowing supple wheel articulation on poor roads emerged from the sheds. Citroën themselves rented the system to help it win the WRC year after year until it was ruled an unfair advantage, now McLaren, Toyota and the American military have access to it.

[Lacquer Peel]

JCB Fastrac uses Hydropneumatic suspension, sometimes front and rear.

I've owned a couple of Xantias, I'd say the occasionally brittle ride and complexity don't outweigh the plus points of restful high speed cross country travel on bad roads, powerful brakes and self-levelling suspension.
Both of mine leaked eventually but fixing them was no more complex than replacing a brake line or oil filter on a conventional car.

The lack of intellectual curiosity in motoring has RUINED cars, it's all about branding now. Citroen will sell you their DS line of cars trading on a car built in the 1950s that's more technically advanced than the cars they're selling today.

[Lacquer Peel]

What do we make of this?

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/uk-exclusive-new-citroen-suspension-set-%E2%80%98reinvent%E2%80%99-comfort

 

The new suspension has been developed in-house and will be exclusive to Citroën within the PSA Group “for the time beingâ€. It replaces classic bump-stops in a conventional coil-over suspension unit with compact, carefully calibrated secondary dampers that Citroën engineers call progressive hydraulic cushions.

 

[Cleon-Fonte]

I think it was in the early 80s when a British motoring journalist dared say something like this in respect to big Citroëns; Half the motor industry wouldn't be able to engineer with such precision, the other half would struggle understanding the technology.

 

Ultimately this is why I'm not sad to see hydopneumatic suspension axed, as by the end it seemed even Citroen themselves no longer understood it. The fact that the hydractive MkII C5s offered little in the way of ride and handling advantages over their lesser coil sprung brethren - despite a welcome return to double wishbones in place of the old pseudo-Macpherson struts - bears this out. It seems offering hydropneumatic suspension had become a formality, something Citroen merely felt they had to offer on their mid-range cars.

[strangeangel]

Viz. most non-autoroute French roads until the early 1980s...

 

And anywhere in Kirklees in the present day.

[Lacquer Peel]

Roads of Britain

People of Britain: "this is appropriate for my needs"

 

Chiropractors rejoice.

[alcyonecorporation]

Citroen's press office is so far denying that HP is dead.

 

They told me all about its new suspension without confirming it as a replacement.

 

Maybe if I SHOUT and write with spaces in caps?

[For Fiats Sake]

It was always an ambition of mine to be lifted by clever suspension.

 

Range Rover P38 achieved this without the need for Citróen.

 

[AnthonyG]

What's this last car with it then? Do they still make the C6 or is it the DS5?

[Guest Breadvan72]

...

 

I think it was in the early 80s when a British motoring journalist dared say something like this in respect to big Citroëns; Half the motor industry wouldn't be able to engineer with such precision, the other half would struggle understanding the technology. The same fella talks about the finest, most sweated-over racing Mercedes-Benz then describes it as merely the laborious handicraft of gifted mechanics compared with the mass-produced DS. 

 

...

 

 

 

 

Setright?

[alcyonecorporation]

What's this last car with it then? Do they still make the C6 or is it the DS5?

 

**Disclaimer: I may be wrong about this. Citroens are not my strong suit, because their fanbois infuriate me. The Volvo lot are still worse, mind.

An Audi A4 S-Line is the only vehicle that's ever made me car sick.** 

 

There's a China-only C6 in production (or on the way) at the moment  but I'm unclear on the specification. European C6 production stopped a while back; the DS5 never had HP suspension as an option. 

C5 stopped coming into the UK last year which I believe was the last Citroen you could buy so equipped.

 

You can still get a Euro spec C5 with Hydractive III+. 

 

This page mentions that the 2016 C5 Exclusive could be ordered with Hydractive III+:

 

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/citroen/c5/saloon/review

 

While this French Citroen page mentions a 'twin choice of suspensions', presumably from Exclusive upwards: 

 

http://www.citroen.fr/vehicules-neufs/citroen/citroen-c5/description.html

 

[Cleon-Fonte]

The C5 is the last to offer it, although only as an option on top-spec models, but production of the saloon ceased in March and the estate is due to end later this year. The C6 has been long gone whilst all the DS range feature steel suspension with the stiffness turned up to 11.

[carlo]

I'm just imagining how good the Cactus could have been with a proper Citroen suspension.  Like the idea of that car but it doesn't seem well executed.

 

Anyway, the nearest we're gonna get to cutting edge technology these days will probably be remote cup holders.

[Lacquer Peel]

Citroen and Peugeot did great things with MacPherson struts and torsion bar rear suspension. Also light weight and small wheels. NO GO.

[alcyonecorporation]

Citroen and Peugeot did great things with MacPherson struts and torsion bar rear suspension. Also light weight and small wheels. NO GO.

 

You're not allowed to say that because GLORIOUS HYDROPNEUMATIC SUSPENSION IS MOST PRETENTIOUS AND BEST SUSPENSION. 

The 305 was probably the apex of your arrangement. 

 

Citroen fans say Peugeot ran the firm down after 1974; I say it was karma for what Citroen did to Panhard. 

 

It's still a USP in the bin, which is still a huge shame. To badly paraphrase a line from Richard Bremner, people shouldn't be denied the option of buying a soft riding car. 

At least McLaren are making use of the technology. I think most of the old guard at Citroen have died or left now. 

[Lacquer Peel]

Horizontal coil springs but the same idea. Torsion beams have ruined everything.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

It's the same with my favoured marque, Bayerische Motoren Werke. There was a time when they produced conservative yet superbly engineered cars along the same lines as Mercedes used to - We'll develop this car and build it the best we can. It costs what it costs. Here is the finished job, sales can add their margin. If you don't want to pay 50% more than a Ford, buy a Ford. Good day.

 

Now of course they're turning out the same old shit year after year, cost pared to buggery to keep the prices low and adding all kinds of shit like iDrive to appeal to peasants who won't give a toss when the next 1 Series is front wheel fucking drive. M Sport iDrive connected assist brain dead heads up 19 inch sports seats towie crashy ride sporty PCP £250 a month lifestyle. A long way from the 2002 Turbo.

 

Regardless, a late seventies CX Prestige is pretty much the pinnacle of real world splendid motoring. Yeah, a 604 rode almost as well, but it's not a Citroen CX. If you truly appreciate cars, there is a difference. Citroen built wheeled spaceships with funny suspension, rotating eye instruments and single spoke steering wheels because they bloody well could.

[alcyonecorporation]

If you truly appreciate cars, there is a difference.

 

Point taken, but that mentality is the exactly the sort of foaming Citroen fanboism that gets up my nose. I don't like being looked down upon because I went out and tried their precious high pressure hydraulics and found it a bit wanting. 

 

I can tell the difference between a coil sprung car and a hydropneumatic Citroen. They're different, but not that much better (certainly not the gulf the apologists will have you believe), and to imply folk are ignorant and deprived for not wanting a wilfully odd car is more than a bit unfair. CXs are great, but I wouldn't have one. 

 

This is sounding like a character assassination, but it isn't. 

[Cleon-Fonte]

The C5 is the last to offer it, although only as an option on top-spec models, but production of the saloon ceased in March and the estate is due to end later this year.

 

Change that from 'later this year' to 'today'. According to the chap who runs Citroenet the last C5 Tourer left the production line this afternoon, although Citroen don't seem to have marked the occasion even with a press release.

 

There endeth Citroen high pressure hydraulics.

[alcyonecorporation]

Change that from 'later this year' to 'today'. According to the chap who runs Citroenet the last C5 Tourer left the production line this afternoon, although Citroen don't seem to have marked the occasion even with a press release.

 

There endeth Citroen high pressure hydraulics.

 

Christ. Nice one, Citroen press office. I shall chase. They have since admitted HP is to be disconbobulatinued made unavailable. 

 

It was always an ambition of mine to be lifted by clever suspension.

 

Acid tabs. Do not take in forest, otherwise you'll find out how right William Blake was.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Point taken, but that mentality is the exactly the sort of foaming Citroen fanboism that gets up my nose. I don't like being looked down upon because I went out and tried their precious high pressure hydraulics and found it a bit wanting. 

 

I can tell the difference between a coil sprung car and a hydropneumatic Citroen. They're different, but not that much better (certainly not the gulf the apologists will have you believe), and to imply folk are ignorant and deprived for not wanting a wilfully odd car is more than a bit unfair. CXs are great, but I wouldn't have one. 

 

This is sounding like a character assassination, but it isn't. 

 

 

To have sampled the CX, 604 and XJ as new cars (when it mattered), you would have to be pretty old. Did you? Are you?

 

No.

 

Had this avenue been progressed, Hydropneumatic in 2017 would have been quite incredible. But they didn't because innovative engineering is a dead end compared to profit. Such is life, and the lot of a car manufacturer.

 

I am not a Citroen fanboy btw. 

[alcyonecorporation]

Because ageism.

[UmBongo]

It's now official, the last Shitrun pissing alien blood all over your drive, the hard shoulder of the motorway and your company car park is going to be built next year,

finally relegating a pointless, unnecessary, grossly overhyped and lethally dangerous answer to a question nobody asked to the confines of the rubbish bin of history,

where it already belonged 64 years ago.

 

You wot, Guv?

[Lacquer Peel]

Vive la difference.

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

To have sampled the CX, 604 and XJ as new cars (when it mattered), you would have to be pretty old. Did you? Are you?

 

No.

 

Had this avenue been progressed, Hydropneumatic in 2017 would have been quite incredible. But they didn't because innovative engineering is a dead end compared to profit. Such is life, and the lot of a car manufacturer.

 

I am not a Citroen fanboy btw. 

 

 

All three of these - the CX, 604 and XJ are magnificent cars. They're really quite different from each other and have their own strengths and shortcomings, but I love all three.

 

I am very sad to see Citroen disappear into history. Though sometimes they answered questions which had not been asked, they did it with such great chutzpah and originality that I can only love them for it. Their ideas and technology found its way across the channel too: my Jaguar  XJ40 contains considerable volumes of Citroen, as did Rolls-Royces, used under licence from Citroen.

[Cleon-Fonte]

A certain Spen King of the Solihull area obviously disagreed with you there, developing a much improved version of the system that completely eradicated pitch, roll and negative camber without the use of any complicated electronics. Below is a vehicle so fitted taking a corner at speed:

 

hydro p6.jpg

 

Sadly a similar system for the P8 died with it and by the time the SD1 came along BL's cost accountants had forced the engineers to accept crappy old Macpherson struts and a live rear axle.

 

This video appeared in my YouTube feed this morning, showing the Rover P7 (hydropneumatic P6) prototype in action during testing. I thought it might be of interest to shiters with a liking for green, oily suspension.

 

 

The elegant simplcity of Rover's setup does really show up Citroen's half-arsed Activa system, despite preceding it by three decades.

[Datsuncog]

Just reading through the above for the first time: I couldn't call my self a Citroen fanboy by any stretch but the solitary LHM car I've accidentally owned, a shagged-out XM estate with moon miles, was a surprisingly lovely (and totally reliable) thing to drive despite everything. I promised myself at the time that one day I'd have a non-rotten one, and I still intend to do so.

 

Also - this couldn't have been filmed using a coil-sprung car:

 

 

(I understand they tried, but ultimately had to use a 6.9 Mercedes W116 with hydro suspension as a camera car.)

[Asimo]

Wonderful video!

 

The P6 with roll control was oversteering a lot - I wonder if the project was canned because of fears that poor drivers would, bereft of the clues from roll, run out of rear grip at a point way past their ability to catch it?

 

Much less of an issue with a front drive / understeer car.

 

As for that famous Rendevous movie - watch it with no sound and it is much better. The soundtrack does not at all fit the action anyway and in silence the progress through the miraculously empty Paris seems serene rather than urgent.

[Sigmund Fraud]

Hydropneumatic suspension ? In a posh British car ?

 

Nah, it would have never worked out !

 

[DSdriver]

Horizontal coil springs but the same idea. Torsion beams have ruined everything.

The Traction Avant (which came before the DS) had torsion bar suspension and was much desired for its roadholding abilities in the day, by Les Flics, French villains and the Gestapo.

 

What goes around comes around.