Cars of the people. Part two tonight at 9.

[Formula Autos]

Sorry to go back to last weeks one, but the Allegro didn't need to be a hatchback, because there was an Allegro estate for those customers that wanted practicality. Or so the thinking at the time would have been.

So I'd suggest that it was this backwards thinking that was the problem, not the lack of a hatchback. The idea of doing exactly what was done before, just changing the shape of it every now and then. The idea that a little island full of stuffy uptight old men, on the edge of a continent could even begin to anticipate what all those sexy 70s Europeans, let alone the rest of the world, would want in a car amuses me greatly.

Admittedly all this is with the benefit of hindsight, but .........

 

BL obviously employed some talented people at the time. Harris Mann being a prominent example.

 

The Allegro was watered down from the original proposal and, despite not being as bad as often painted, was in some ways flawed by the time it was released to the buying public. BL weren't alone in this - there was uncertainty in the early '70s as to whether small hatchbacks would sell. After all, cars like the Escort were still selling strongly and if an estate variant could also be offered then all bases were covered, right?

 

Not quite. Hatchbacks started selling well, particularly in that size/ price point. Other makes woke up to this. So, while the Allegro series 1 was perfectly understandable as a saloon, the example set by such as Fiat giving the 127 a hatchback should have led to the pretty much hatchback shaped Allegro being given a hatchback by the time it was a series 2 or 3. BL got left behind, lost sales as a result (particularly overseas), and lost their place as one of the world's largest car makers.

 

The example of the Allegro in episode one succinctly explained how BL failed to develop an OK car into one that arguably would have sold much better, and how this was a theme across their entire range; success might have actually been within sight, but circumstances and/or poor decisions thwarted it.

 

What might have been was ably demonstrated by the Mazda 323 of similar vintage to an Allegro Series 3. The 323 was in most ways unremarkable, but it was what the market wanted, and it sold well.

 

Anyway, enough about episode 1 - I thought episode 2 was a bit of a dip in quality, but still watchable enough.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Thing is, in 1962, the BMC 1100 moved the game on so far that bit took Ford another 15+ years to make anything as good. Hydrolastic, independent suspension all round, rack and pinion, FWD, discs - plus it was a lovely bit of styling and was enormously appealing which is why BMC built over 2 million in 12 years.

 

The Allegro should have been the wedgy original as per the drawing and balls to the heater (use the 1100 one, it worked!), 1100 and 1300 only, a lift back rear door and something resembling build quality. In other words, not going backwards, but making a car than was a step forwards over the 1100.

 

But this was systematic of BL thinking. Someone with a working brain would have designed the Marina with McPherson struts, a five link coil rear axle, two piece prop etc - basically, a really nice sophisticated chassis.

 

The reason? Two fold - firstly so the Marina would have been easily there sweetest driving car in it's class, but more importantly soothing with a very long shelf life to underpin the replacement for the Dolomite and not have to involve Honda. Pure logic.

[forddeliveryboy]

May as he was in his 'England Made Me' column. Fresh, enthusiastic, well-read - quite lacking in the cynicism and sometimes sneering, know-it-all attitude many motoring journos use. I enjoyed it, though he tried too hard to cover all bases - which could well have been a BBC know-all advising him.

 

"So horsey it's practically Princess Anne" - followed with the original PA motoring quip a few minutes later. Haha!

 

"Saudi Princes and Radio 2 DJs"

 

"The Brits had their radar and their bouncing bombs - the Russians the mighty T34, the Americans had this, the Willys Jeep." This was carefully left to the viewer's opinion of Americans. 

 

I appreciated the careful photographical time-sliding in Bologna, nothing was mentioned but it was very well done. Usually you end up searching for the similarities when cameramen do this.

 

He reminded us that even Toyota had their own prolonged strike and that the company only survived because of the American involvement in the Korean war.

 

There were good references to history, without sounding like somebody overfull of themself, who'd chanced on a lucrative career.

 

I liked the little asides which you feel have some feeling to them, "a massive land invasion of Europe (if they could find it)"

 

"Compared to the other stuff America was designing [cue atomic explosion] designing a little car may seem like a doddle..."

 

"(the police, who'd been forced to walk everywhere since 1945)" 

 

"Cue another timely armed conflict ... bingo"

 

"things like this [Jeep] would be necessary for beach landings, special ops and transporting John Wayne across really tough terrain" 

 

"Hang the hefty price tag, this was top quality German engineering", cue a sluggish leccy window.

 

 

I like how he went some way to suggest that the Impreza wasn't worthy of its yobbo tag, managing to dis yobbos at the same time as praise the 'deeply significant' Suby.

 

 

 

He looked and sounded like he'd already drunk most of that bottle of red in the finishing sequence. Good stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

Boom, spot on. The Allegro 3 was actually quite a decent car but it was too little, too late. Even Citroen had learned by then and had the GSA.

 

Chuckle chuckle, "Even Citroen..."  like they were the harbingers of ultra-conservativism, a dare-not-innovate company, umm, yeah. Peugoet had the 104/LNA/Samba to counter the Audi 50, complemented by the trad (but charming) 3 box 305, 504 and 604. The 205 saved them from total doom.

[dugong]

Chuckle chuckle, "Even Citroen..." like they were the harbingers of ultra-conservativism, a dare-not-innovate company, umm, yeah. Peugeot had the 104/LNA/Samba to counter the Audi 50, complemented by the trad (but charming) 3 box 305, 504 and 604. The 205 saved them from total doom.

Indeed. Citroen were so innovative the 1971 GS wasn't a hatchback and so successful it was stone brassic by 1974.

 

Arf, arf.

 

PEACE.

[forddeliveryboy]

I have amended my definition of innovation, ta muchly. The GS was a fairly mis-guided product for the Escort sector, the 304 was brilliantly targetted, nothing to surprise, nothing to offend. The GS lacked innovation in the same way as the Peugeot, not having a hatch. 

 

Now I'm trying to work out how the French consumer bought over 60% more GSs than 304s, even though production of the 304 overlapped the GS at each end with coupes and rag tops too. Bloody mystery, that.

 

 

More peas, pleez.

[dugong]

I have amended my definition of innovation, ta muchly. The GS was a fairly mis-guided product for the Escort sector, the 304 was brilliantly targetted, nothing to surprise, nothing to offend. The GS lacked innovation in the same way as the Peugeot, not having a hatch. 

 

Now I'm trying to work out how the French consumer bought over 60% more GSs than 304s, even though production of the 304 overlapped the GS at each end with coupes and rag tops too. Bloody mystery, that.

 

 

More peas, pleez.

Nicely fudged. The fondue set you brought round is shit, by the way.

 

It still doesn't explain why the GS wasn't a hatchback. Why wasn't it a hatchback? Citroen were apparently innovators - even though most of the GS was shamelessly cribbed from Panhard's small car designs. Peugeot were never innovators but it had money. No surprise its designs were conservative. Hatches were the future, granted. Neither car sold brilliantly in the UK.

 

I mean, getting squashed and denigrated under a larger, richer parent company. Karma, much?

 

I seem to recall you dismissing the argument of 'it was better because they sold more' when folk stuck up for Ford in previous threads.

 

I'll have another GS at some point - but it won't come from the owners' club. I got absolutely rinsed buying that thing; to be fair, it wasn't the car's fault.

As a scatty fair weather classic, I'd have a GS or GSA (any variant) like a shot. If I wanted a classic that stood a chance of being usable everyday bar rusting and not destroying its suspension and brakes catastrophically because it felt like it, I'd take a 304 and risk the horrors of hygroscopic brake fluid. Soz.

 

EVEN MORE APOLLO SOYUZ. I AM WANTING TRUCE.

[Lacquer Peel]

 

I like Peugeots and Citroens.

 

This programme is great after years of Top Gear and crass Jeremy Clarkson-led motoring television with polar opinions about cars (this car is shit! this car is great! this car is shit!), it's nice to see James May appreciate cars for what they are and not be led by received wisdom.

[forddeliveryboy]

I dunno why they didn't sign it off as a hatch, I wasn't there and a hundred more reasons. Maybe they reckoned that sector was conservative and so given not much of the rest of the car was, they played it safe in that respect, wrong decision in hindsight perhaps. 

 

Sure - sales don't make a car good, that's obvious? I pointed out the GS was catastrophically wrong for its market sector, but sold in massive numbers for the time, despite the company going bust a few years into its production. Isn't that a bit odd?

 

I used the production figures since it wasn't a lack of sales which made them brassic (although Renault in particular were making some brilliant cars by the 60s), rather because they'd taken their eye a few miles off the ball and spent too much on LSD and fine wine engineering development, too much on fancy projects and buying fancy Italian names, probably with a self-assuredness which masked the risks - a self-belief which can be a dangerous thing for anyone who has been at the top for a few decades.

 

You know what they're like (disassociating yours from the nobs in the club, if you can), you've had a GS and presumably driven it hard over long distances/worked on it/had a good look under the skin - what was it that made them sell so many more than their nearest rival with a lion on the grille? I haven't been in a 304 for yonks, I seem to remember it was very charming in that dependable-feeling Peugeot way. I'd love a 304 coupe.

 

Can't work out why you dis the 'other' company and its cars so readily (and those who do 'get' them), it's like something's knawing away deep inside you. They're old cars, a little slice of motoring history to be appreciated if that's what you want. Life's too short to get all het up about a foreign company which went to the wall in the early 70s.

 

 

PS re the fundoo, try better cheese. Dairylea makes a mess.

[forddeliveryboy]

 

oh - you've re-written and added a load to your post, dg. Sounds like you were bloody unlucky, but ancient cars can go wrong if someone has messed them up/not looked after them in a previous life. They had a reputation for never needing much mechanical attention unless a local garage used to little more than Cortinas and Minors had a go, it was just the rot as with so much from the era. 

 

Then there's the paranoia some have with suspension which a blacksmith wouldn't put on his forge - it's the same with MGFs. The complexity of a modern's electronics is many, many times higher. LHM suspension fails if you fail to maintain it, which is perhaps a couple of hours every 4 or 5 years and an eye over the pipes as you do the braking system anyway. 

[vulgalour]

I like this series so far.  I did cringe a bit a the 4x4 race, I felt like it was going a bit Top Gear but the episode did redeem itself.  I liked that they took the modern 4x4 and showed where it came from.  I hadn't realised the modern Lamborghini was anything other than rear wheel drive, I knew nothing of the Toyota War and I liked that the Impreza got a more reasonable attitude than one is usually subjected to.  I loved that the Land Rover was shown for what it was, not overly glorified but also not shunned as being basic as all fuck and about as safe as a cake tin.

 

In fact, This series feels well balanced.  It educates - and it genuinely does!  I've learned things I didn't know - and entertains, which is precisely what the BBC is for.  Not only is it a series dealing with an egalitarian subject matter, it does so in an egalitarian manner.  If you're a car nerd or a Top Gearite or something in between there's something for you in this show.  It caters to all, and that's incredibly difficult.

 

It comes across as a show for enthusiasts, by enthusiasts with some tempering to interest those who are not yet enthusiasts but could be as a result of this programme.  That can only be a good thing.

 

My only real criticism of the programme is that the Panda felt glossed over as a thing until I thought about it and wondered if there was really anything more that needed to be said about it in the context of the programme itself.

[Richard]

At least Rover learned from past mistakes and didn't replace the R8 with an Allegro lookalike, that would have finished the company off.

[garethj]

A good programme again last Sunday, I think a bit less time on the race through the desert and maybe a bit more on other cars.  If the Panda was the peak of 4x4 cars then perhaps a few more seconds on it and (even more modern but just as high chod value) a Berlingo 4x4.

 

But still very good, James May is great to watch with this stuff, his interest in the cars and mischievous digs show through nicely.

[Pete-M]

Howdí ur-Quattro electric windows were legendary for being insanely slow.

 

They've not changed.

[Formula Autos]

Strangely, given the debate sparked by episode 1, Allegros, and all that, the Ur-Quattro was a hatchback shaped saloon. Albeit not a car pretending to be a practical family runaround.

 

So the Audi 80 Coupe body shell was even more of an anachronism than the Allegro saloon, having been introduced years later.

[Pete-M]

Quattro wasn't hideous. Which is where it had a major advantage over the Allegro.

[plasticvandan]

where was the Niva.Where!

[Lacquer Peel]

Quattro wasn't hideous. Which is where it had a major advantage over the Allegro.

They're a bit brutal looking however. Are the Audi's electric* windows actually pneumatic like the central locking? They never worked in my 85 coupe.

[forddeliveryboy]

Electric, just typically 80s. More reliable than MB ones.

 

I'm surprised those RR tyres didn't get sliced up, it needed 70 profiles.

[oldcars]

Watched it last night. The sinclair c5 was on, folk were interviewed about it back in the mid 80s. Chod galore in these bits.

[Cavcraft]

Lacquer Peel, on 04 Feb 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:

 

 

I like Peugeots and Citroens.

 

This programme is great after years of Top Gear and crass Jeremy Clarkson-led motoring television with polar opinions about cars (this car is shit! this car is great! this car is shit!), it's nice to see James May appreciate cars for what they are and not be led by received wisdom.

 

 

Spot on. James May comes across as knowledgeable and really pleasant. Without the twattery of Clarkson it makes it far more pleasant viewing and I think it lets May be who he is, rather an a stooge for rent-a-gob.

[dollywobbler]

I felt the 4x4 one was a bit weak, but this week's was bang back on form. Thoroughly enjoyable. It's proof that cars and telly can work without twatism and stupidity. 

[carlo]

Excellent last night.  That Chrysler Turbine is fantastic, what a looker.  Remember a plastic model kit I made of it many years ago.