xantia estate hdi reliable motoring?

[twosmoke300]

All the ones I've driven have terrible headlights

[stripped fred]

Have you seen the cat D one on ebay at a dealer for £795? I want to email him and ask if its an error and should be £295

I've been comparing quite a few car prices recently and it's surprising what some dealers will ask. I suppose a lot of people don't compare prices that much as they find the whole car buying process a bit stressful. It's also more difficult to value a car as it gets older.

[Richard]

All the ones I've driven have terrible headlights

 

Xantia or V70? Either way I'd agree with you. I think the technology to make decent headlights was lost in the late 1980s.

[dieselnutjob]

Our 806 HDI has 235,000 miles on it and no major engine work, and I would say in many ways it's tougher than the XUD.

I used to run XUDs in my 305s and the highest mileage one I had expired at 208,000 having blown a head gasket earlier in its life as well.

 

The 8 valve HDIs will survive a cambelt break which an XUD will not.

 

The biggest problem with the 110bhp HDIs is the DMF but I think that the Xantia didn't have one, so no problem there.

 

Our 806 did need a lot of money spending on injectors earlier in it's life but they do come up on ebay sometimes quite cheaply and aren't hard to change on the 8 valves.

 

The 16 valve HDI is no where near so robust, but no Xantias have them.

 

The HDIs are more electronic than the XUD but now you can get knocked off Chinese diagnostic tools for them really cheaply you can basically do everything that a Citroen dealer can do yourself.

[UltraWomble]

Our 806 HDI has 235,000 miles on it and no major engine work, and I would say in many ways it's tougher than the XUD.

I used to run XUDs in my 305s and the highest mileage one I had expired at 208,000 having blown a head gasket earlier in its life as well.

 

The 8 valve HDIs will survive a cambelt break which an XUD will not.

 

The biggest problem with the 110bhp HDIs is the DMF but I think that the Xantia didn't have one, so no problem there.

 

Our 806 did need a lot of money spending on injectors earlier in it's life but they do come up on ebay sometimes quite cheaply and aren't hard to change on the 8 valves.

 

The 16 valve HDI is no where near so robust, but no Xantias have them.

 

The HDIs are more electronic than the XUD but now you can get knocked off Chinese diagnostic tools for them really cheaply you can basically do everything that a Citroen dealer can do yourself.

All this HDi hatred and at last someone who speaks sense.

 

The 8v (90BHP) version is indeed robust and slightly tunable as the Fanny Magnet proves. The 16v is a more fragile item (and thats the one I have in the C8) and aslo has more electronic gubbins nailed on. Remember the arse end of the HDi is the XU9D its only the top end thats different.

[stripped fred]

Am I right in thinking the 8v hdi is the 90bhp one and the 16v one is 110bhp? I spike to my mate who had the 406 that went to 280k and his was the 110bhp version. Good to know that the 8v is the more reliable though.

 

The budget I'm thinking of is £500 to £800 so for that if I could get a couple of years motoring with usual servicing my myself I'd be happy. If it needed a clutch or timing belt I'd sell it in or scrap it. I spent £1400 on my alfa over the last 6 weeks which doesn't make much sense when the car isn't worth a lot more and will need other bits doing at some point. That's the problem with buying an older diesel that saves you 10mpg then lands a huge bill at your door, unless you can do the work yourself of course!

[vulgalour]

 

> 1.9 turbo diesel

> runs on vegetable oil happily

> towbar fitted this year

> has factory roof rack and boot liner, can also be provided with non-factory wheel brace (Citroen BX) and jack (Lexus LS400)

> really good tyres

> MoT until 21st December

> Brand new Valeo clutch fitted very recently

 

 

All that for £600 if it takes your fancy.  It's located in Thornaby, Stockton-on-Tees and can and will drive the length and breadth of the country without complaint.

[Richard]

Am I right in thinking the 8v hdi is the 90bhp one and the 16v one is 110bhp? I spike to my mate who had the 406 that went to 280k and his was the 110bhp version. Good to know that the 8v is the more reliable though.

No, the 110 has an intercooler, the 90 doesn't. 16V engines and multiple permutations weren't around in the Xantia's time.

[MikeKnight]

Biggest selling point to this is the fact the clutch is done already.

 

God I hated that job.

[UltraWomble]

Cost £600 (not for sale) Clutch done.

2.0HDi 8v 

141K miles

Pulls like a train.

Runs on a 50/50 mix if you like.

[dollywobbler]

Also I used to lower it slightly when on the motorway in the belief it made it more streamlined!

 

Er, I can't see how you'd do this. The suspension has four heights - completely dropped, standard, intermediate (which starts to get bouncy) and maxed out (very bouncy indeed, only for test purposes). 

 

Have to echo big-ups for the 2.1 engine. It's what I've got in the XM and it is SO much better than the turbo 1.9. Turbo cuts in much sooner so you do find you can potter around in fifth gear all day. Flaky electrics can be an issue, but there's great support for hydro-Cits, and it's amazing how much can be fixed very easily. Like wiggling a wire in a certain place...

[Richard]

I suppose you could put the lever in an in between position. The C5 does lower itself at speed but it's all electronically controlled.

[steve_earwig]

All this HDi hatred

It's depressing but I don't feel free to comment because I'm probably biassed (even though I think XUDs are probably a better bet as these cars age)

 

Remember the arse end of the HDi is the XU9D its only the top end thats different.

Indeedy, the RCZ still uses a 1.9 XUD crank. I guess that means at least the engineering department doesn't fiddle with things if they work.

[stripped fred]

20150215-03.jpg

 

> 1.9 turbo diesel

> runs on vegetable oil happily

> towbar fitted this year

> has factory roof rack and boot liner, can also be provided with non-factory wheel brace (Citroen BX) and jack (Lexus LS400)

> really good tyres

> MoT until 21st December

> Brand new Valeo clutch fitted very recently

 

 

All that for £600 if it takes your fancy. It's located in Thornaby, Stockton-on-Tees and can and will drive the length and breadth of the country without complaint.

It looks good and the sort of car I'm after. I need to have a think first though and also have a few jobs to do on my Alfa before I sell it. Good that the clutch has been done. That and the timing belt are two jobs I'd rather avoid although I would be more prepared to take on a timing belt myself.

[stripped fred]

I suppose you could put the lever in an in between position. The C5 does lower itself at speed but it's all electronically controlled.

Yes that's what I did. A while ago now though. It was a 1.4 and was a great car.

[dollywobbler]

Hmm. Not sure I'd take that risk. If the lever dropped right to the bottom, it would be pretty unhealthy! I did used to do 'traffic light roulette' in my BX though. Pull up to a red light, drop the car down, pull the lever back up and hope the car had risen up by the time the lights went green!

[Andrew353w]

All the ones I've driven have terrible headlights

I agree; the dipped beam is rubbish, but it's about the only poor thing on the car.

[D Spares & Tyres]

All this HDi hatred and at last someone who speaks sense.

 

The 8v (90BHP) version is indeed robust and slightly tunable as the Fanny Magnet proves. The 16v is a more fragile item (and thats the one I have in the C8) and aslo has more electronic gubbins nailed on. Remember the arse end of the HDi is the XU9D its only the top end thats different.

 I thought I was speaking utter sense.......

 

Having been in the motor trade for years I have had all sorts of trouble with old HDi engined vehicles. Old XUDs fantastic, never any warranty claims. Yes HDi ENGINES are great and being XUD based they rarely have mechanical failure.but all the shite that is stuck on them is a pain in the arse as is the delightful French wiring. Often when plugged in they won`t come up with a fault, or they will come up with several faults which when these parts are replaced the car often will do the same as it did before...

 

But.... this being a forum about shite cars and non sense I totally recommend a Xantia HDi, it will be an upsetting thing to own I imagine, but for every horror story there will be someone who has had no trouble. but 50% is still shite

 

HDi rant over, I`m going for a lie down

[steve_earwig]

Mate of mine here works in "the motor trade" (motor factors to be exact) and he loves VWs 'cos they keep him in business... Thing is, If you talk to anyone in "the motor trade" they'll have all sorts of issues with this car, that car, the other car. All cars go wrong from time to time, it's all swings and roundabouts.

 

I've no real experience of Xantias (apart from welding the door back on one of my brother's) but I've been on the 406oc forum for a few years now. Principle cause of 406 HDi failure to proceed? Dead lift pump (HDi 90s don't have them) Electrical faults? Well, there was a problem with com2000 indicators (easily solved now 3d printing exists. Xantias don't have them). Water getting into door switches (like every other damn car these days), Broken wires in door hinges (ditto). Early body systems ECUs could give some problems but that's all a known now (I'm pretty sure Xantias didn't get them). Other than that, broken road springs (like every other car these days. Xantia's not affected obviously.). Suspension linkages (Like every other damn car too)

 

PSA diagnostics are best done with PSA test gear (ebay is full of cheap clones), generic code readers often can't find the codes or may not be able to clear them if they do. Or they just give something spurious and unhelpful. Modern diagnostics is all about interpreting the results, if the code reader says component A is at fault people then replace component A to find the fault is still there and it's actually component B that needs changing. It's all down to experience and knowing what the results actually mean, rather than just blindly doing what it says (just like every other damn car these days).

[twosmoke300]

Hear hear , fault codes are only the start . A good example is that some cars pop up a maf sensor fault code but it's often a stuck egr that is the problem .

[UltraWomble]

 I thought I was speaking utter sense.......

 

Having been in the motor trade for years I have had all sorts of trouble with old HDi engined vehicles. Old XUDs fantastic, never any warranty claims. Yes HDi ENGINES are great and being XUD based they rarely have mechanical failure.but all the shite that is stuck on them is a pain in the arse as is the delightful French wiring.

 

And there is the nub, modern electronics, mostly anti polouting garbage.

EGR

MAF 

DPF/FAP

 

Take all that away and what you have esentially is the XUD. 

 

PSA isnt unique in having all this shit nailed on though. GM are just as bad if not worse. French wiring is crap though.

[steve_earwig]

All diesels have EGRs. MAFs have been on petrols in one form or another since about the time they started fitting electronic injection to them, so they're kind of known about. No particulate filters on Xantias, not on my HDi either. Find an early car to have been fitted with a particulate filter, track down it's owners club and you won't find one that doesn't give issues and have people trying to get rid of them. They are disaster.

 

I'm not saying all the emissions garbage is ok, it's not, but singling out PSA and GM as the worst offenders is patently ridiculous. In my 7 years of ownership the Pug hasn't given me an ounce of problems with it's emissions junk, while in the 3 years I've have the toyoyo I've had the cat replaced twice as well as 3 lamda sensors. They eat them, they're known for it. A lot of the other electronics is shared with other cars, notably Ford and Fiat, but I don't think anyone can say that they immediately become less reliable when fitted to a French car.

 

"French electronics are crap". Yawn.

[dollywobbler]

Actually, the comment above was 'French wiring is crap' which it is! 2CVs barely have any wiring, and it's still crap. And, frustratingly, all the wires are the same sodding colour too. Apart from where they obviously ran out of that green and spliced in a bit of grey at random. Halfway through a bit you can't get at. 

 

My XM suffers from crap wiring in its random occasional faults. My 306 (British built French shite) had all manner of central locking issues, due to crap wiring in the door pillars. I've owned a couple of Renaults though, and they've mostly been ok apart from the rot that has seemingly killed them. Wiring was fine!

[dieselnutjob]

The 90BHP HDI is an 8V with mechanical wastegate and I think no intercooler. It does not have a DMF.

The 110 is an 8V with electronic wastegate and an intercooler, and in my opinion the pick of the bunch.  On the Xantia the 110 does not have a DMF but on every other PugCit it does.  There is a solid flywheel conversion.

90 and 110 HDI automatics come with the fragile AL4 transmission.

 

There was also a 16V 110bhp which I think was only fitted to late model 806 and van derivatives.  The 16V was for emissions not power.

 

The 136BHP 2.2 as fitted to 406 and 607 is 16V and seems to have a weak cambelt particularly on the people carriers.  This is exacerbated by the difficulty of getting the head off to fix it.  To get to the head bolts the inlet manifold has to come off, but the injectors run through it, are very long and often seize in.  There is evidence that water was dripping into the cambelt cover and freezing in the winter on the people carriers, but that doesn't explain the 45k failure on my 607.  The 2.2 is further complicated by inclusion of a DPF though on mine it was easily disabled.  This disadvantages are largely offset by the tougher ZF 4HP22 automatic transmission.

 

All of them have EGR but on these older models you can blank it off.  I used the top off of a sardine tin and a pair of scissors to make mine.

 

On a Xantia the 110bhp HDI is pretty quick and very economical, is only 8V and doesn't have a DMF or DPF.  If you can find one it's probably the best Xantia of the lot, in my opinion.

[dieselnutjob]

One check that you have to do on the older HDIs.  Get the engine warm and then accelerate through 2000 rpm, through 3200 rpm and keep going on a reasonable throttle.

 

If the engine starts "pinking" at about 2000 rpm and then goes quiet again at 3200 rpm then you have one or more knackered injectors.  Basically they open for pre-injection and fail to close again, causing the pinking.  This normally happens at higher rail pressures which only happens at higher power demands.  At 3200rpm pre injection is disabled which is why it shuts up.

 

Often they don't do it when cold so you need to get the engine warm to test for this.

[dieselnutjob]

oh and bottom pulleys (that drive the accessory belt) often fail on all HDIs.  They get noisy and have even been known to feed shrapnel into the timing belt and take it out. I think that some XUDs have this as well?

[steve_earwig]

One check that you have to do on the older HDIs.  Get the engine warm and then accelerate through 2000 rpm, through 3200 rpm and keep going on a reasonable throttle.

 

If the engine starts "pinking" at about 2000 rpm and then goes quiet again at 3200 rpm then you have one or more knackered injectors.  Basically they open for pre-injection and fail to close again, causing the pinking.  This normally happens at higher rail pressures which only happens at higher power demands.  At 3200rpm pre injection is disabled which is why it shuts up.

 

Often they don't do it when cold so you need to get the engine warm to test for this.

It's the other way around, pre-injection is where the injector is meant to open slightly before the main squirt to aid combustion and reduce noise, which is quite effective when they're new but when they're worn the diesel pressure slams the injector wide open from the get go. It doesn't appear to affect performance or consumption, they just start to sound like an old taxi.

 

On mine it's my #1 injector that's making the most noise, I have a set I got off a breaker in GB but I'm loath to fit them because the crappy Croat fuel will probably soon wear them out again.

 

Word of warning: You can pick up XUD injectors for a few quid, new HDi piezo injectors cost hundreds. You can have them recondition but they don't address the wear that makes them rattle.

 

Hold on, "pinking"? How do diesels work again?

 

Early 406 HDis didn't have DMFs, later ones did. The change happened in 1999 (it's easy to tell, it's when they facelifted them) and as they stopped making Xantias around this time they appear to have escaped this particular technological advancement*

 

I've never had any wiring issues on older cars. Me sir? No, sir. BTW PSA don't do colour codes (not on the wiring anyway), I don't know how far back they started doing this. In some ways it's good, find a wire, read the code, look it up. In some ways it isn't, we get lots of bods come on the forum asking what colour wire does such-and-such. Sorry mate, no idea, get the magnifying glass out.

 

oh and bottom pulleys (that drive the accessory belt) often fail on all HDIs.  They get noisy and have even been known to feed shrapnel into the timing belt and take it out. I think that some XUDs have this as well?

OMG my car's about to explode! Nah, it was changed for the later pulley with the cam belt. The pullies are two halves with rubber in between. When they age the rubber perishes and the two halves of the pulley can start to move against each other (easiest way to tell is to draw a line across them with tippex or similar, then run it - if the line breaks up the pulley's had it). It's not shrapnel that takes the cam belt out, it's the aux belt itself, when they pulley fails it can throw the aux belt off and it seems to be aimed squarely at the cam belt. It can do the same thing if the aux belt just fails on its own.

 

I don't think XUDs got the damping pulley, I tried searching with the HDi's part number and it only brought up other HDis but this doesn't mean they didn't get something similar.

[dieselnutjob]

 

 

when they're worn the diesel pressure slams the injector wide open from the get go. It doesn't appear to affect performance or consumption, they just start to sound like an old taxi.

 

I assumed about 12 years ago when mine did it, and no-one could explain it, that the injector was opening for pre-injection and failing to close again with 1200bar behind it, which would give it too much diesel too soon leading to that horrible rattle.  I guess it might amount to the same thing really.

 

 

 

You can have them recondition but they don't address the wear that makes them rattle.

 

I spent a lot of money of reconditioned injectors back in about 2004 and as you say it didn't work.  They were putting new nozzles on them but the problem is the actuator rod that goes from the solenoid on the top of the injector to the nozzle.  If the rod isn't tight enough in the body of the injector it upsets the balance in the solenoid so that it can't close the injector quickly once it's open.

 

 

 

Early 406 HDis didn't have DMFs, later ones did. The change happened in 1999 (it's easy to tell, it's when they facelifted them)

 

I didn't know that you could get a prefacelift 406 with HDI. I thought that they were all 1.9 or 2.1 prior to facelift.

[D Spares & Tyres]

Actually, the comment above was 'French wiring is crap' which it is! 2CVs barely have any wiring, and it's still crap. And, frustratingly, all the wires are the same sodding colour too. Apart from where they obviously ran out of that green and spliced in a bit of grey at random. Halfway through a bit you can't get at. 

 

My XM suffers from crap wiring in its random occasional faults. My 306 (British built French shite) had all manner of central locking issues, due to crap wiring in the door pillars. I've owned a couple of Renaults though, and they've mostly been ok apart from the rot that has seemingly killed them. Wiring was fine!

Sort of agree....I have become quite attached to my 1997 Renault Scenic diesel family car, 100% reliable, I think I will keep it until its a classic as I would miss it too much. However, I have just taken a 2004 Scenic in part ex. Unbelievable electrics on that. Hardly anything works on it apart from the engine and box, I`m not getting involved as I`ve had a look online and I`m not alone.....

 

Had an XM and sort of loved it but the electrics were so unreliable it had to go. I nominated it for my worst car in that forum....

[D Spares & Tyres]

Oh and my old Bx wiring went a bit nuts and every single wire in that part of the loom was yellow......