Down to my last used Jonny. Only the Anglia 105E left.

[jonny69]

I just want to check them. It's an ok spark but a bit weak and I want to rule out the points gap being a bit too small. Tiny points gap can make starting the Ford difficult and when the points have worn to that point it retards the ignition - which also makes starting difficult. It's most likely to be 6V related when it's cranking; in as much as it doesn't crank particularly fast and, if it drops a volt in doing so, it will affect the spark more significantly than on a 12V setup.

 

But 'just checking the points' on the Anglia is a simple matter of bonnet up and pop the distributor cap off. On this it's a lunchtime faffing about dismantling things...

[Bfg]

I just want to check them. It's an ok spark but a bit weak and I want to rule out the points gap being a bit too small. Tiny points gap can make starting the Ford difficult and when the points have worn to that point it retards the ignition - which also makes starting difficult. It's most likely to be 6V related when it's cranking; in as much as it doesn't crank particularly fast and, if it drops a volt in doing so, it will affect the spark more significantly than on a 12V setup.

 

But 'just checking the points' on the Anglia is a simple matter of bonnet up and pop the distributor cap off. On this it's a lunchtime faffing about dismantling things...

 

Remind me Jonny... what were you saying about your Anglia's running over the past month ?

 

Must admit though..  my old bikes do need their 6v battery kept right the way topped up for the spark to show a strong cyan strike, and they don't have to cope with a cranking motor. !   I have quick 'n easy connectors for the 'battery tender' - for any time the bikes haven't been used regualrly.

[forddeliveryboy]

The car's just preparing you for the faff when the generator fails, or a head oil feed pipe starts to weep. Breaking you in gently.

[Bfg]

As an almost aside.. I hadn't realised just how similar looking the Bond Equip's frontal aspect was to the Ami-6 :

 

 

GT4S as seen on fleabay  here

[jonny69]

Quite a lot of spannerage over the weekend. The car let me down after work on Friday and flatly refused to start. Cranking for ages and not a single fire. I popped the plugs and both were sparking. I noticed a fuel drip coming from somewhere under the inlet/exhaust manifold and couldn't see it coming out the carb at all, so figured there must be a hole in it. I knew one of the exhaust joints was slightly cracked so I planned to whip it all off over the weekend and sort it out with the welder. I went back up to the lab and got a syringe, which I used to suck a little bit of fuel out my jerry can and squirted it down the carb barrel. The engine then fired. So it must be fuelling. Crack or hole messing up the mixture. Must be that.

 

I took it all off on Saturday. Welded up the crack on the exhaust runner which was surprisingly big considering this was a new manifold. No more stinky fumes though. The hole in the inlet plenum seemed to be deliberately there but I welded it up anyway. Back together with exhaust paste on the exhaust gaskets and 3M's version of Hylomar on the inlets. I had the carb off so I stripped it down and looked for any signs. Nothing obvious except the spindle is a little worn. I poked the progression holes through in case they were blocked. Pair of new plugs and it fired straight up. Hooray!

 

Well not quite. It's a lot, lot quieter and it's nice to have no fumes in the car, but it's still a complete bitch to get started. It takes a lot of cranking and it'll finally fire on one, but just very weakly. It'll be like bub... bub... bub... bub bub bub bub and the throttle position makes no difference, it'll catch a bit better on the one cylinder and after a bit of nursing finally fire on the second. I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get it to start from cold because it's fine once it's going and once it's warmed up it re-starts without any fuss at all.

 

I've tried dry cranking it, dry cranking with choke, couple of pumps of accelerator before cranking, lots of pumps of accelerator before cranking, couple of pumps and wait a bit for the fuel to atomise, add a few more pumps for good measure, just cranking and no throttle, wide throttle, pumping while cranking, cycling from closed to part throttle to force the air over the progression jets. I've basically tried all the tricks with a carbed engine. But it does seem to fire immediately if I squirt some fuel down the barrel, so I think this is actually fuelling related, not spark.

[forddeliveryboy]

I'll say it again - check the coil and HT leads.

 

PS - bunging the 'deliberate' tiny hole in the manifold under the carb will prevent flooded fuel from escaping, making it worse to start if you do flood it. Which a boxer engine is more prone to.

[Bfg]

> Flooding ? : My own car's owner's handbooks tells me not to touch the throttle at all when starting from cold nor when warm - just full choke or half choke respectively..   And if it doesn't start then "do not forget turn off the ignition before trying again".

 

FDB is correct in saying that the hole under the carb is there to help prevent flooding.  But you should see evidence of this as wet-with-fuel plugs, if removed soon after it will not start.    Flooding is common when cold because the fuel condensates in those darn-long inlet manifold & pipes.  And that's a whole lot of metal to heat up before things are at 'normal working temperature'.  I understand the older VW Beetles have the same issue. 

 

> Starvation ? : Might I otherwise propose you try starting from cold without any of the car's pipework or pump. ie., from a petrol-can, positioned higher than the engine but pipe primed to siphon directly into the carburettor.   Doing this will help establish whether it is indeed a fuel issue, because as the car starts and runs satisfactory when warm then we know that the carb is working OK.

 

We also know that when warm the fuel system is primed,  so..,  if it starts from a siphon pipe from a can - then we might conclude it's an issue with the pump not lifting fuel after it's backdrained. 

 

> Mixture ? : And when the car is next running and ticking over - might I otherwise suggest you spray a little quick-start around the inlet manifolds.  If the revs rise even a little - then you have an air leak.  If so, it's possible that this leak is negligable when running warm..  perhaps due to the leaner mixture being appropriate &/or themal expansion closes off some or all of the leak.

 

Food for thought perhaps 

 

p.s.  It's a shame you're not nearby.  I'm near Colchester where you bought the car, not Heathrow !  ..otherwise I'd have been glad to give you a hand.. 

[dollywobbler]

Sorry. Let me be third in line to say 'that hole should be there.' As soon as you mentioned the fuel drip from the manifold, I went 'oh oh!' 

 

How are the valve clearances?

[Sigmund Fraud]

then we might conclude it's an issue with the pump not lifting fuel after it's backdrained. 

 

I know nothing about Citroen two-cylinder engines, but this ^ seems the most likely culprit to me. Can you try bodging an electric pump in temporarily, as a means of testing it ?

[forddeliveryboy]

Valve clearances would usually only be a problem once the engine was up to temperature, unless they're _that_ tight, in which case it probably would run like something Ford. 

 

In my experience, if a 2cv or clone has a good, reliable ignition side of things and the engine isn't shagged, it'll start even with a lazy fuel pump, antique petrol and owner who's not tuned into French stuff. A drop of fresh petrol in the float chambers if the pump's on it's last legs - they almost always start pumping above 2000 revs, which is very low in the rev range for these things but way beyond a starter motor, obv.

 

I once started and ran one on only one cylinder for a few days, waiting for bitz. Even at sub-zero, it started reliably.

[dollywobbler]

Fuel drain back is an increasing issue it seems, but only if a car has been standing for more than a couple of days. Some are even fitting primer bulbs. Bit fancy.

[forddeliveryboy]

The older pumps had levers on the side, even though they didn't need them until they'd been standing months. I'd have thought a sixties Ami would be avec lever. Unless the same numpty who filled it full of filler also thought a new (un-rebuildable) pump was the answer.

[RayMK]

This may be a red herring, but I had a 2cv6 brand new in 1975.  98,000 miles later, it became a pig to start and would die on steep uphill stretches. I vaguely remember looking at the fuel pump and discovered that the actuation rod was worn, thereby reducing its stroke.  I reduced the thickness of the gasket to compensate for the wear and all was well again.

 

The uphill dying stunt was discovered whilst on holiday in the Yorkshire Dales. The symptoms were of fuel starvation.  The solution to this inconvenient problem by a much younger 'me' was to turn around and reverse up the hill i.e. putting the tank higher than the engine.  I caused much confusion as I drove backwards but still on the left.

[forddeliveryboy]

A worn pump or rod shouldn't have caused starting probs, unless there was hardly any fuel left in the carb bowl because of mal-adjusted float level - unless you'd killed the ignition at full chat. Me thinks weak mixture, so heat, poss other things meaning too much heat, going backwards simply overdosed the engine on fuel to allow it to survive 'The North'.

 

I've known many a carb-fed engine to run just fine in the Home Counties, only to have big probs oop Norf, Kernow-wards, Highlands or with Alps.

[jonny69]

It's pumping ok because it'll sit at speed on the motorway with no sign of missing or running lean. Fuel drain-back is the only thing I haven't checked. I'm going to put on a fresh pair of HT leads but they (and the coil) aren't the problem because there is a spark. I'll check what pump it's got - I'm not yet 100% familiar with Citroen engine parts.

 

Other than this one negative point, everything else is improved. From what I did at the weekend, power is up, noise is down and no fumes in the car. The seat is way more comfortable now I've replaced a bunch of the rubber bands. I need to make some seat covers and put the last of the interior trim back in.

[forddeliveryboy]

Bright sparks may be more easily achieved when not under compression, engine needs less effort to turn and so on. Just sayin.

 

Has the mixture been leaned off too much at some point? Dead easy to unwind the mixture screw a turn to check.

 

Has the instant summerification of the weather altered the starting? Taking the top off the carb and making sure the level is somewhere near, before a first start of the day, could highlight a leaky or weak fuel pump.

 

A worn pump may well deliver enough fuel for 85mph, but not deliver any at cranking speeds.

[jonny69]

Another letdown this morning and I had to borrow SWMBO's car because it was blocking the Anglia in on the driveway. Thinking of maybe moving this on now because it's not reliable enough and it's taking up too much of my time. That wasn't the point of it. Can't have something refusing to start every time there's rain or if it's cold.

 

So to summarise:

-spark is fine

-idle mixture is fine

-coil, leads, condenser and plugs are fine

-pump is pumping strong on cranking

-fuel not running back down

-carburettor is clean and clear, all jets look clear

-no manifold leaks

-gaskets all sealed with sealer

 

I'm NOT getting into having to go through some kind of ridiculous ritual every morning just because it's a crap design. Might be fun if you have to do it on an occasional weekend driver, but not on something you want to rely on day to day.

[barrett]

Sounds like a real dog. Sell it on cheap asap. You've got my number hint hint.

 

Gaffer's Ami has had similar starting issues, although it always goes eventually, but after a certain amount of running on one and general flubbiness (I just invented that but you know what I mean). Finally checked the points and they are totally knackered, despite a decent spark at the plugs etc. Gonna change them tomorrow and see what difference it makes.

 

If you're around after six I'll get Panhard Gary to give you a ring, he probably has a good idea of what else to try (runs a 2cv as his 'modern'). Send me your number on FB

 

(Soz if you've already done the points I only skimmed the last few posts)

[Bfg]

Jonny,  I note that FDB suggested you check the compression ratio (on 25th of last month), but I don't see your saying you've done so.. ?  (My apologies if I've missed your saying so)..   Again going back to the vintage bikes I'm familiar with - they will run surprising OK  if the C.R. is poor - but that's only if you can get them started !  When the compression is poor then they are a bitch to start ...because the starter swing speed / inertia is so very little.  

 

The Citroen air cooled twins are tough and reliable little buggers,  and even though cranking is often needed from cold - they should start  'OK' in all temperatures.   True, they're not like some cars where half a turn of the engine and it's away ...but once everything is (even crudely) set up - they should start as easily as any other carburettored car  

 

And as barrett suggests .. points  ?

 

Pete.  

[forddeliveryboy]

Jonny, you're not giving too much away... was a new coil tried, or one which is known to be a good one? New plugs checked for resistance? New Bougicords? Something, somewhere is wrong if it doesn't start on the button or within two or three seconds if arctic weather. A specialist who knows his stuff would pinpoint the problem pretty quickly. They're so simple, it's not like obscure fault-finding on a modern. Well worth remembering there's always a small percentage of new parts which don't work correctly.

 

Pete, I've known this design of flat twin start perfectly well even when one cylinder is down to 90, even in the worst conditions. Time and again it's the spark which is the problem, people pull a plug, spin the starter and see a reasonable flash, but don't realise how easily the spark is 'knocked back' once the plug is screwed in place if it's not robust, due to a weak link in the battery-points-coil-leads-plug chain.

 

A crankcase pressuring up due to worn breather valve could possibly make for worse starting. A finger over the dipstick tube gives a rough indication of the pressure, if there's lots of positive pressure, it's knackered - there should be a slight depression felt. Still, I'm sensing you already have that. 

[jonny69]

Got it started last night after mucking about with it for too long. Difficult to get it started again at the supermarket. Then another complete failure to start this morning.

 

FDB, I haven't put a new coil in because this one is working. There's nothing wrong with it. The new plugs are sparking on both cylinders so there's little point checking their resistance. I still haven't had it apart to check the points.

 

Bfg, no, not checked the compression yet. Doesn't feel like it's a lot down on power from its whopping 25hp though.

[Sigmund Fraud]

Do those have the marvellous* Solex anti-run-on valve on their carb ? The one on my old, two-cylinder DAF 44 was sticky and caused major starting problems that were a PITA to diagnose.

[forddeliveryboy]

Got it started last night after mucking about with it for too long. Difficult to get it started again at the supermarket. Then another complete failure to start this morning.

 

FDB, I haven't put a new coil in because this one is working. There's nothing wrong with it. The new plugs are sparking on both cylinders so there's little point checking their resistance. I still haven't had it apart to check the points.

 

Bfg, no, not checked the compression yet. Doesn't feel like it's a lot down on power from its whopping 25hp though.

 

 

What does 'mucking about' entail, and what seemed to make it start, or was it just random?

 

Be 110% sure the coil, leads and plugs are working properly, as you insist. The symptoms you describe are typical of partial coil failure.

 

If you haven't a compression tester, just stick fingers over the holes (at the same time) and have someone turn the key. One cylinder which is well down will make itself obvious.

[jonny69]

What does 'mucking about' entail, and what seemed to make it start, or was it just random?

 

Taking the plugs out and checking they are sparking, and checking there is fuel going down the carburettor barrel on the throttle pump. What generally makes it fire is if I squirt a pipette of petrol down the spark plug hole and quickly getting the plugs back in. This is the reason I don't understand why it won't fire when I manually pump fuel into it by using the throttle pump.

 

I will check the compression as you recommend because it does sort of look like it's not drawing anything through itself when I crank it. I guess sticking my hand over the carburettor when cranking would confirm that.

 

SF, no anti run-on.

[RayMK]

You have acquired a very French car and given it another chance.  Yes, it is frustrating when the darned things do not repay all the attention and £££s given to them, but the fact that it runs reasonably well once started does mean that there is a problem only when under starter's orders.  The basic design is French, not flawed, and can be fixed.  Regardless of all previous checks, systematically go through them all again.  Sparks with the plugs out should be blue and give a sharp cracking sound.  Anything less powerful will be incapable of starting a slow turning engine when current is being absorbed by the starter in overcoming compression.  If after several attempts at starting and throttle pumping the plugs are wet when examined, this is a good sign.  At least the fuel side is working.  If not, then there may be something amiss with the fuel delivery side or the inlet manifold.  You know how to persuade Fords to start and how to diagnose problems and find causes.  Don't let French weirdness put you off.  I want you to succeed with this car.  It is one of the more interesting types being reported on in this forum, together with BFG's and a certain Renault 6   

[jonny69]

I took Barrett's advice and sold him the car cheap spoke to Panhard Gary. Nice guy to take time out to listen to my rantings. He sounded pretty convinced that it would be the points because he said on these, when the points start to close up, it is usually the difference between the engine starting and not starting when the weather changes. And it was all going swimmingly until I pulled the plugs out and wound out one of the helicoils. I'll hopefully take it all apart and do the points at the weekend and, when my replacement helicoils arrive next week, fingers crossed it'll solve this.

[jonny69]

Some things happened. Some things got broken. Some things got binned. Some stuff got spent.

 

Weekend plan: find and check the points. First thing that happened was I found where I'd mislaid my radio. I feel I might be under here too often and for too long since it was already under the bonnet:

 

 

Second thing that happened was some awkward hammer action through the grill opening to get the fan off so that I could get to the points. This needed a hammer, a long bar and some patience. The only bar I had long enough was my jack handle. So, the following things got broken in the process:

 

 

That fucking hurt.

 

FUCK.

 

FUCKER.

 

Only to find it didn't have points after all, it's got one of these...

 

...which seems to be working ok. However, it's a proper pain in the arse to get to, so I'm going to replace it anyway for peace of mind despite it being £150 plus a new 6V coil at another £45. This one can go on eBay to get a few pennies back. I've got a brand new engine breather in the parts box which can go on, too. Replacement fan just landed on my desk.

 

Poxy. Bastard. Car.

[forddeliveryboy]

These fully electronic ignitions are not 100% infallible, if you're lucky they fail altogether, otherwise it's usually one cylinder for 30 seconds from cold if the rest of the ignition bits and engine are up to this. 

 

Points with a Boyer Bransden ignition box taking the signal from them to give a brighter and more reliable spark is a good solution, the points will last c 50,000 miles with just a fraction of an amp crossing them - the BB units are tough and can easily be disconnected to run on points alone in the case of a failure.  The 24 hour race brigade use Lumenition, it's regarded as bomb-proof.

 

Well worth replacing the voltage regulator if fitting a new 123 - it's not just the pain of £££ but being totally stranded if the ignition box ftp - people don't usually carry a spare.

 

 

http://www.international2cvfriends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5771&start=20

[jonny69]

 

Well this looks straightforward enough to fit.

 

Wait, Citroen. Wat u chattin.

 

Ok, I'll come clean. I've resorted to throwing money at the problem until it goes away. Got a new 123 ignition module, new coil, new leads, new fan, new pump diaphragm and new breather. £250 lighter.

 

 

This went in a lot easier than I was anticipating. Had a root through the Haynes manual and found the timing hole, poked a 6mm drill down it and simply turned the module round until the LED lit. Dead easy.

 

 

New fan is slightly different to the old one but looks a bit more efficient. I can handle that.

 

 

New coil needed a bit of artistic use of cable ties as the mounting is broken at one end.

 

 

One of you guys mentioned that a leaky breather can make starting difficult. Well I got lucky there, because there was a brand new one in my box of spares. That's £80 saved!

 

ECAS pump diaphragm didn't fit so I butchered it onto the original one to make a good new one that did actually fit.

 

There we have it. Cranked to get some fuel up, then to check for sparks and it was sparking. Still not the best spark in the world, so I wasn't holding high hopes. Plugs back in and it fired up pretty much immediately. Thank **** for that!

 

So my final diagnosis is... I don't really know. The original 123 ignition module appears to be working fine. I just wonder if a combination of a number of things not quite working at 100% was just giving me inadequate ignition. It's definitely up on power now too. 35 mile test drive with a number of restarts and it started up first pull every time. Don't want to call it cured yet but I think it's cured.

 

Also pulled the battery out and cleaned up around it where some acid had worked its way out. Looked like it was overfilled. Also finally stuck the spare wheel where it belongs and out of the boot.

 

[jonny69]

I'll sort the pictures out at some point. It always puts them round the wrong way when I post from my phone.