Are we getting too upset.....

[Split_Pin]

Just what we need, a thread about other threads for people to rip their knitting over.

[scooters]

without a doubt, remember the whole premace for autoshite in the first place was to Save the Kit...(or chod) by collecting and mothballing rare and unloved vehicles (a la nigel) and preserve them for future generations.

 

The need for daily drivers means that a lot of cars that are not rare get caught up as 'chod' when they are plentiful. A 406 is definitely not Kit or chod at the moment, it might be in 10 years time but not now - were it a 304 it is definate chod, or a 405 - now moving into chod.

 

Citroen BX - qualifies because in the last few years they have all but vanished

Mk 2 Mondeo - doesn't qualify because there are loads around

 

for the autoshite Project to succeed in its mission it is vital that the meagre shitter's resources are spent, as much as possible, in preserving chod.

[Ratdat]

The best folks can do is step in and buy something they feel needs saving when the opportunity arises. I've done this load of times and often at a loss in the long run. Sometimes it works out and a car gets saved for the future and sometimes it doesn't but there's no point in getting upset about it.

 

I've spent the last year selling off a whole bunch of my cars, some of which have been in storage untouched for years. My Datsun 1000 estate had been off the road and in storage since 1997! Back then it wasn't worth tuppence and was completely undesirable, so had I not stashed it, it could well be long gone now so I feel I've played my part. What happens to it now is out of my hands so I'm not going to loose any sleep over it. Of course I'd like to see it survive as there are only two left but I think there's a good chance that it will now as the 'barren years' of datsun desirability have passed.

 

Not everyone has the facility to become a chod rescue home though so we have to be realistic with our expectations. The bottom line is, not everything will survive. Usually it falls to people who are really into just one model to keep an example alive for the future and fortunately for most cars, there's usually at least one diehard fan but sadly not for all. But then, surely it's in those cases where autoshite legends are created?  Lonsdale for example... Sao Penzas too...

[minolman]

In a way I like to think that when cars enter that stage between the time they were new-ish to the time they are bangers and when some may come to enjoy the status of 'classic cars' it is people like those on this forum who keep and preserve them who effectively allow them to survive for another generation to appreciate.

 

In the late 60's and 70's when people kept what would have been old bangers at the time, say the early F type Victor, or the 50's square Ford barges, or split screen Morris Minors were the 'autoshitters' of their time Thanks to them and their vision those cars survive now, for them it was probably also upsetting to see cars scrapped. I remember being at a car show with a chap who had been a scrapper in those days. We were looking at a lovely Riley RME and he said to me he recalled when the drove them into a corner of the yard and simply set them alight! The wood frame burned and the metal left was easy to pick up! Would probably make a Riley fan weep.

 

It is scary to me to see just how some of the poverty spec or unloved cars I saw when I was growing up in the late 70s and 80s I have never seen since. Even fairly new cars - for eample I had a 1994 Skoda Favorit, and for 2 years I never ever saw another one coming in the opposite direction or in a car park even. 

 

With the cars I am now preserving I own a Skoda 120LE which is one of only 2 left on the road, a Zastava Yugo 311 one of only 5 left, a Lada Samara 1.5GL, the last of its model on the road, and have a Skoda 120LSE apparently one of a handful of twin front headlamp ones left as a project I'm saving from going over the bridge.

 

I do get upset when I hear about certain cars going to the scrappers but I don't rage too much about it

[Partridge]

I remember save the kit (I've been a long time lurker). I could never tell tat and kit apart.

without a doubt, remember the whole premace for autoshite in the first place was to Save the Kit...

[saucedoctor]

I can see both sides here. A few years back I went as part of a team to do a new system rollout for a local seat of learning. Stacked up. to be dumped, were over 200 desktop PCs and 15" LCD monitors, keyboards etc, all about 2 years old, and many of which had barely been used. Your tax money at work! We talked them into giving at least some of them to Barnardos and one of our local community groups which does adult education. The Uni was going to fuck the whole lot in landfill, and that pissed off all of us on the Rollout Team.

 

On the other hand, I had a 1974 Escort 1300XL 4 door (20 years ago), and while it was bodily sound, EVERY bloody thing mechanical went boogaloo. The final straw was when the steering lock jammed, and neither me or any of my mates could sort it out. That was taken away (back in the days when you had to pay for vehicle disposal) as I literally couldn't give the car away. I was sick looking at it, and it wasn't worth fixing, either in term of money, or my mental wellbeing.

[Junkman]

Cars come and go, if cars didn't get scrapped, there would be no need for new ones and we'd have no advancements in technology.

 

There wasn't a single advancement in technology for about 40 years.

There only was the cramming cars (actually lives) full to the brim with totally pointless technology that has existed for ages and with careful brainwashing people are coaxed into believing that this is progress. What a pile of tosh.

We need to stop making shiny stuff we don't need and start making things we do need, but this would require real innovation, which stopped after the invention of the flush toilet.

 

I am very upset when perfectly useable cars get scrapped for a multitude of reasons, one of them is that it is detrimental to physical economy, as opposed to just monetary economy, to which everything is reduced nowadays, with the obvious consequences.

I also have no problem whatsoever with falling out with members of my family and have enthusiastically done this for lesser reasons than a car being scrapped.

Your friends you can chose, your relatives not.

[mercrocker]

Well said, once more, Junkman!

[Cavcraft]

No enhancements in 40 years?

[chaseracer]

Airbags are good, as are 'soft' front ends. However, this does lead directly to the bloating discussed in another thread.

[dugong]

The two advances we can be thankful for in the past 40 years are ABS and fuel injection, with rust proofing a distant third. Our ten year old cars die of electronic faults rather than the brown ruin. 'Progress' has merely shifted the problem away from the bodyshell to the mass of badly produced Chinese sensors under the scuttle. 

I am still convinced that's the way my C4 will go, eventually. 

[minolman]

Four wheels and generally petrol driven applies to cars from the dawn of time, by 1900 cars were already getting up to amazing speeds, and just before WW1 we had our first 100mph production car. [The Vauhall 30-98]. I often think there isn't much innovation, only redesigns or styling changes

 

Anti Lock braking was being developed as early as 1930 on aircraft for landing with Voisin in France. In 1950s Lightning jets had it as did many others and in the early 70s it mushroomed as several manufacturers offered it as an option including Cadilac, Oldsmobile, Chrysler and Nissan, over 40 yrs ago. Fuel injection was widespread in designs of Diesel engines for Stationary engines and ships in the late 1920s. Again it came later to cars but Bosch was working hard on it in the mid 1950s. Mechanical fuel injection was was an option for Chevys in the 1956 model year. 

 

Certainly its true that electronics and the complex nature of them not to mention cost to replace sees many over the bridge. Is this also to do with our consumer society though? I like the feeling that I 'recycle' stuff other people no longer want. 

[scooters]

around 15 years ago the manufacturers, lead by PSA and Renner started selling loans rather than cars into the European market. As these loans were typically for 3 years there was no incentive for the manufacturers to build beyond warranty - this resulted in some truly dreadful component quality hidden behind acres of moulded plastic and chrome paint. Anyone who has experienced a ford starter motor of thermostat housing (plastic) or bulb holders from Renner will testify - 2 years go I replaced the earth cable and starter motor on a friend's 5 year old Focus TDCi. I was appalled that it had failed on 62k and that the earth cable was oxidised inside for it's whole length it had 2 inches of exposed copper so shoddy was it. When I telephoned Ford to complain about this I was told "the car is five years old - what do you expect?" At the time i was using a 240 estate, 20 years old and still going strong.. I also recall putting a Scenic over the bridge when the rear wheel bearings went and this necessitated the replacement of the whole rotor at about £400 for the parts alone - as we were skint and no one wanted the car, it went over the bridge but this happened because, again the parts were cheaper to produce as a block rather than servicable components and they only had to last 3 years.

 

With the rise in 7 year warranties from Korea etc I think that some of the Euro manufacturers will have to look and are looking at their business model. However, they did produce some total cock over the last 10 years or so

 

#minlo - your point re electronic issues is well made - I have had several vehicles that looked brilliant but due to complex electrical faliure were scrap

[Mr Livered]

I've never seen (or heard of) a plastic thermostat housing. Good grief! Just when you think the big manufacturers have come up with every conceivable way to save a few pennies, they have a stroke of genius* to knock a fiver off the car's manufacturing cost.

 

I suppose I'm being ignorant because no doubt modern plastics are tougher than I give them credit for, but it just doesn't inspire confidence. If I was driving one of those cars and I noticed the temperature gauge (if the manufacturer had bothered to fit one) getting a bit hot, I wouldn't be able to stop thinking about all that scalding water melting the tupperware it was being piped through.

[scooters]

post 2002 Focus's - plastic thermostat housing - fails at about 80k and gets replaced with a steel pre 2002 item!

 

plastic inlet manifolds on the same period tdcis - utter cock

 

yes - they fail as well

[Bobthebeard]

If I was driving one of those cars and I noticed the fuel gauge (if the manufacturer had bothered to fit one) getting a bit hot, I wouldn't be able to stop thinking about all that scalding water melting the tupperware it was being piped through.

If the fuel gauge was getting hot then possibly the plastic thermostat housing would be innocent until proved guilty?

[Mr Livered]

Thanks for pointing that out old chap, I've edited the post. Fuel gauges getting hot is one of the few problems I've never had to deal with.

[Squire_Dawson]

Junkman is correct.

 

There is nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing, in a 1970s car that would confuse a 1930s mechanic.

[michael1703]

 

Citroen BX - qualifies because in the last few years they have all but vanished

Someone on here had a perfectly good one with a rusty boot floor,had a thousand picture thread detailing it with a clay bar and scrubbing the seats and then scrapped it

[scooters]

Someone on here had a perfectly good one with a rusty boot floor,had a thousand picture thread detailing it with a clay bar and scrubbing the seats and then scrapped it

I lent my one - the wonderful Meteor, lent it to a prat who wrapped it round a fucking lampost! bastard

[scooters]

Junkman is correct.

 

There is nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing, in a 1970s car that would confuse a 1930s mechanic.

 

 

I beg to differ your Squireness!

A 1930's mechanic might well scratch his head at the decision to paint the car poo brown whilst making the interior fuzzy velour the sort of orange that comes out of a cat when it is bringing up furballs "what lunatic beatniks are they employing to design cars these days"?

[Formula Autos]

Junkman is correct.

 

There is nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing, in a 1970s car that would confuse a 1930s mechanic.

 

Sure about that?

 

 

[dangerousdave]

yep well said just like cortinas escorts and granadas were in the 70,s and 80,s but part of it is that unfortunately its so easy to get credit for a new car these days a lot of people treat them like a washing machine just keep it till it breaks  then get another 1 a good example was the other year a friend of mine buys cars for scrap he fetched a fiat brava in which th owner said was losing oil which was due to a rotted out oil filter so probably never serviced and scrapped for the sake of something that costs a few quid or ive known of a few people selling them for scrap because "its a bit old " but if their worth it my mate will sell them on

[New POD]

As a fairly average manufacturing engineer, having spent 25 years in the automotive supply chain, I'd like to think we need 2 million cars scrapping every year, in order to make room for more cars to employ lots of people. 

 

Or we could try and make cars that the rest of the world want so we can export them, and not scrap 2 million cars a year

[Junkman]

I beg to differ your Squireness!

A 1930's mechanic might well scratch his head at the decision to paint the car poo brown whilst making the interior fuzzy velour the sort of orange that comes out of a cat when it is bringing up furballs "what lunatic beatniks are they employing to design cars these days"?

 

Correct.

They did it the other way 'round.

 

[dangerousdave]

what weve all got to think as well is if everybody saved every car the likes of the escorts and cortinas would still be boring run of the mill stuff

I have to hold my hands up I let a car go to the oval track it was a mk2 polo which id been running but decided to change it for a range rover classic was going to sell it but it failed mot on a brake pipe which would have been a nightmare to replace and I was still restoring a Cortina at the time and a banger racer come down and offered decent money for it as it was so off it went

[Junkman]

Sure about that?

 

 

 

 

Hydropneumatic is known since the 18th century, the Wankel engine was patented in 1929, and variable belt drive transmissions are widely used since the 19th century.

[dangerousdave]

sory harping on again but I hink the ones we should get upset about is the often good condition classics that were needlessly wasted without even a chance of salvaging bits in the scrappage scheme how could any of that be good for the environment as they kept saying

[Formula Autos]

Hydropneumatic is known since the 18th century, the Wankel engine was patented in 1929, and variable belt drive transmissions are widely used since the 19th century.

 

Not necessarily within the ken of your average '30s mechanic though, which was my point. Come to think of it, your average '70s mechanic would probably have been stumped by some of the issues that might have been thrown up by a CX, Ro80 or Daf Variomatic.

 

Cars are more complicated these days, but not all auld chod was fixable with a penknife either. Some romanticising goes on about ye good olde days, and how every car was dead easy to fix. Those three are from fairly mainstream manufacturers of the time (OK, not Ford and BL, but they weren't that wacky) - obviously exotic supercars and the like would have been more complicated still.

 

I would put the high point of the motor industry's achievements at around the mid '90s. Cars were by then fairly well made, reliable and rust resistant. As well as a hell of a lot safer. Some unnecessary luxuries were creeping into bread-and-butter mobiles, but not many.

 

Other opinions are, of course, available*.

 

*and, of course, wrong.

[Squire_Dawson]

There are always exceptions to the rule. Point I'm trying to make is the run-of-the-mill cars hadn't changed. All still mainly RWD, even FWD wasn't unusual in the 1930s and it's not especially complex anyway. Ignition and carburettion unchanged. Suspension largely unchanged. Hydragas is very simple. I can't think of anything on a Morris Marina to stump our time-travelling garage man.

 

But I would agree that the high point for automobile development was in the mid-1990s. After this point the quality went downhill big time.