XUD stop solenoid question

[castros_bro]

Forgive my intrusion on your Sunday lunch preparation,  I is stuck with my XUD powered lump which set off all it's alarms in an, otherwise,  quiet public carpark, I have stopped all the noise and got inside but it refuses to start.  I have little interweb access.

 

In the attached appalling quality picture is the red circled item with wires the injector pump stop solenoid and if I apply 12v from the battery using a bit of wire will it give the injectors some diesel and run again?

 

 

[Inspector Morose]

Quick answer,

 

Yes.

[Richard]

I can't see that too well but I think it's the immobiliser type, which means you've little chance of getting it going without sorting out whatever set the alarms off. The kind you can open by applying 12V to look a bit like a temperature sender and have the terminal held on by an 8mm nut.

[Richard]

Actually, looking again I concur with Mr 7. You can also take out the solenoid and remove the plunger if the solenoid is being an arse, but if you do that you have to stall the engine to stop it.

[willswitchengage]

I had an issue of a failed one of these on an old BX. The first is that the plunger can wear and ultimately stop throttling the fuel when the electricity is off, so the engine continues to run when the ignition is off (I can't remember which pump I had but there is an emergency stop lever so you don't need to stall the car).

 

The second issue I had with these is that they can cut the fuel off if you gun it too much - i.e. when the fuel rate is high they can throttle the flow, causing the engine to stall. This can be rectified by flicking the ignition on and off (whilst driving at speed!!) and fuel flow returns. In both cases I replaced the solenoid and all was good again.

[KruJoe]

Here's one I prepared earlier:

 

 

It's a 1.9TD, Lucas devil pump.

Originally the stop solenoid was hidden under armour, along with a little black box with four wires feeding it. 

 

 

The pump was removed, armour trimmed, and the electrickery was ditched. Trial and error revealed one of the four wires can be used direct to the stop solenoid.

 

 

The black four-pin plug is the feed from the loom.

Without removing the armour, I don't think a work-around is possible. The metal isn't as tough as I thought it'd be though.

[castros_bro]

Latest  Headline......"  Ole bloke arrested trying to steal his own Ole motor implicates several online accomplices "

 

 

Luck was some previous bodger of French Electrics had removed the tamper proof connection box so the cold chisel I was carrying was free to be used as an offensive weapon.   A little gell cell 12V battery and bits of wire and yer posts and a bump start sorted it

 

 

Have a

 

27/19

 

 an go to top of the class.

[New POD]

Here's one I prepared earlier:

 

P1040542.JPG

 

It's a 1.9TD, Lucas devil pump.

Originally the stop solenoid was hidden under armour, along with a little black box with four wires feeding it. 

 

P1040544.JPG

 

The pump was removed, armour trimmed, and the electrickery was ditched. Trial and error revealed one of the four wires can be used direct to the stop solenoid.

 

P1040543.JPG

 

The black four-pin plug is the feed from the loom.

Without removing the armour, I don't think a work-around is possible. The metal isn't as tough as I thought it'd be though.

 

 

I worked on the Lucas Smart Solenoid Project Team, which replaced the simple 12v Solenoid with one that had electronics on the back and the solenoid was half the size to make room for the electronics, which then gave a cyclic voltage to the solenoid, from 12V to pull the plunger in down to 2V to hold it in place, and back up to 12 Volt just in case it had dropped out and back to 2V every few milliseconds.

 

The original you have there was made in La Rochel on the West Coast of France and Fitted to the DPC pumps in Blois on the Loire Valley.

 

We (at Lucas Control Systems Products in Keighley - now NSF controls), were planned to make the solenoid, and I spent the best part of a year getting to the point where we were ready to place orders with TQC Ltd in Nottingham for the automation required to make one every 6 seconds, when Lucas Industries decided it was going to North Birmingham. Holford Drive I think.

The electronics was made at Mere Green, Sutton Coldfield.  Our team started off full time in the Advanced Engineering Centre on Stratford Road Shirley, and there were people from Cirencester on the team too.

Given the investment to Lucas was over 4 Million quid, with 40 people across 4 sites on the project team, and that at one point they were making 1.3 million a year.   I must congratulate you on the retrofitment of the older solenoid. Top man.

 

I particularly remember working with the supplier of the bobbin, to make it so we could wind the coil automatically.  I must congratulate you on the retrofitment of the older solenoid. Top man.

 

One tip if it fails is to remove the plunger which will allow fuel to flow is to then use the manual stop mechanism on the pump.

 

We had all the costs of manufacture from the French of the simple version, and £3.50 springs to mind.

[castros_bro]

I worked on the Lucas Smart Solenoid Project Team, which replaced the simple 12v Solenoid with one that had electronics on the back and the solenoid was half the size to make room for the electronics, which then gave a cyclic voltage to the solenoid, from 12V to pull the plunger in down to 2V to hold it in place, and back up to 12 Volt just in case it had dropped out and back to 2V every few milliseconds.

 

The original you have there was made in La Rochel on the West Coast of France and Fitted to the DPC pumps in Blois on the Loire Valley.

 

We (at Lucas Control Systems Products in Keighley - now NSF controls), were planned to make the solenoid, and I spent the best part of a year getting to the point where we were ready to place orders with TQC Ltd in Nottingham for the automation required to make one every 6 seconds, when Lucas Industries decided it was going to North Birmingham. Holford Drive I think.

The electronics was made at Mere Green, Sutton Coldfield.  Our team started off full time in the Advanced Engineering Centre on Stratford Road Shirley, and there were people from Cirencester on the team too.

Given the investment to Lucas was over 4 Million quid, with 40 people across 4 sites on the project team, and that at one point they were making 1.3 million a year.   I must congratulate you on the retrofitment of the older solenoid. Top man.

 

I particularly remember working with the supplier of the bobbin, to make it so we could wind the coil automatically.  I must congratulate you on the retrofitment of the older solenoid. Top man.

 

One tip if it fails is to remove the plunger which will allow fuel to flow is to then use the manual stop mechanism on the pump.

 

We had all the costs of manufacture from the French of the simple version, and £3.50 springs to mind.

 

Interesting,  what was the reason/advantage to use this instead of a steady 12v to keep it open?    Some of the servo-hydraulics i worked with used an oscillation (moog valves) to stop striction but I can't imagine that to be an issue with this.

[Pillock]

I love that there's something called a moog valve.

[New POD]

Interesting,  what was the reason/advantage to use this instead of a steady 12v to keep it open?    Some of the servo-hydraulics i worked with used an oscillation (moog valves) to stop striction but I can't imagine that to be an issue with this.

 

To stop it overheating.

 

The design spec was that it should be the same size as the Old version. As 50% of the space was needed for the electronics in the top end, the solenoid had to be half the size, and our electro-magnetic designers worked with a CAD package which could calculate the forces, and the magnetics.  Basically if you just left 12V on, it would burn out, so they gave the electronics the ability to phase the volts and amps. ONCE the plunger was pulled fully in, very little magnetic force was required, but the vibration on a diesel engine, might occasionally loosen it, hence the need to keep applying 12V just in case.

   It was essential to get the right number of copper turns, so each wind had to sit perfectly with no twisting, and the pull in distance was critical, such that there were a few dimensions that controlled pull in distance, which we became paranoid about.

 

Basically at the extremes of temp (-40) with an almost flat battery, with maximum fuel pressure, we were expected to get 100% of product to pull in.  We spent ages, correlating this worst case with diesel, verses the factory test in air. ie how quickly would it pull in at 20 degrees C dry, was measured on every single one before Mere Green got it, so they could attach the electronics.

 

At one point there was a plan to prevent a theft by simply removing the solenoid, and removing the plunger, by having an inbuilt trap, which when you started to unscrew would trip inside the pump.  We even had a version which was designed to snap if you attempted to unscrew it. (and trip the internal trap).

 

But the French gave it to their equivalent of Thatcham, where a retired thief got a large hammer and spent 8 minutes whacking the side of the pump, enough to prevent the trap working. He then broke the solenoid, unscrewed the remaining thread, and screwed in a bolt of the right size, put 12v on the starter motor, and in under 14 minutes had the test vehicle started.

The regulations required 15 minutes of unspecified abuse. That cost Lucas millions, because they had to rethink greatly.

 

My thoughts were that I'd rather someone take my car without keys in the dead of night, than put a knife to my throat and take the keys off me.

 

One question. Does your insurance company know that it's now dead easy to steal it?

[castros_bro]

Please steal my car.

 

It may be worth less then my insurance excess.

It definitely doesn’t have a £15  tracker.

I don't have a spare mobile phone with a giffgaff sim under the drivers seat and can't  sent a text message to produce a 300hz ring tone.

I don't know what thermite is and nor how to make it.

The uncomfortable lump in the drivers seat

 

 

Apart from that it sounds like the bits of industry I worked in where regulation, though well meaning, caused endless "almost got the equipment to spec" scenarios.

[KruJoe]

Fantastic stuff POD, thanks for sharing. 

 

I, for one, am glad Lucas didn't go with the inbuilt trap which makes the pump useless when you pull the solenoid. Where would us shiters be now if we had to deal with that?

 

That cost Lucas millions, because they had to rethink greatly.

 

So, in the end was the monkey-metal armour the best they could come up with?

It's hard to believe a pro twoc-er couldn't have it away in 15 mins by doing a rough version of our bodge.

[alf892]

Thanks POD.......a good read!

 

If I'm reading it right they did all that to overcome overheating in the stop solenoid circuit?? Seems like a lot of work/money/complication to overcome something that didn't happen that much given that (old)type of arrangement had been around since God was a boy.

 

A good example of where things started to go wrong........too many bloody wires!

[castros_bro]

Thanks POD.......a good read!

 

If I'm reading it right they did all that to overcome overheating in the stop solenoid circuit?? Seems like a lot of work/money/complication to overcome something that didn't happen that much given that (old)type of arrangement had been around since God was a boy.

 

A good example of where things started to go wrong........too many bloody wires!

 

It's only to do with regulations, the "new" cars needed to be theft proof for minimum of 15 minutes so  there are  before and after versions of the same vehicle.