But they're wrong

[Negative Creep]

To me, Autoshite is a home for lovers of the unloved. The place where the mundane motors of yesteryear are remembered fondly, and cars of dubious quality (be it due to their ride, handling, performance, appearance, build quality, or whatever) are recognised as having contributed to the vast collective automotive memories that we hold.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

No one here should ever have to defend their automotive fetishes, be they 70s BL tat, rusty Italian shitboxes or 90s Vauxhalls - they are all valid and interesting in their own ways.

 

 

Essentially, if you don't like Tagoras then GTFO.

 

 

But it's also about being free to express an opinion. Last thing I'd want to see is the forum become the "if you don't have anything nice to say don't post" twatfest that infest many, mostly marque specific, car clubs

[whitevanman]

/\ I like that pick up

[Guest EccentricRichard]

The All-Aggro arrived in 1973 and had a 1951-vintage pushrod engine, plus no hatchback. The Volkswagen Golf hit the market in 1974, had a brand-new OHC engine and a hatchback (oh, and a circular steering wheel). Also, the All-Aggro rusted like buggery (unlike the Golf), looked really dumpy and frumpy (unlike the Golf), was extremely badly built (I remember my dad telling me of his driving instructor up near Dundee relating how, after heavy snowfall one night, there was snow on the seats and in the footwells, as well as on top of the car, "and I opened the boot, and what was there? MAIR SNAW!". The 1-year-younger Golf was light years ahead, much better-built, much more practical, much more reliable. OK, so the All-Aggro rode well, but its handling was nothing to write home about (certainly not as sharp as the Golf), and it certainly didn't have enough good points to redeem itself from utter awfulness. The Allegro was a hopeless pile of junk. If it hadn't been, we wouldn't have our roads so full of Golfs. End of.

 

I remember the 1970s and I can tell you the roads were more full of Allegros than Golfs, in fact I seem to recall the Golf being a slow starter sales-wise- possibly because it was a bit ahead of its time. The Allegro did come with a new OHC engine and a five speed box as well as the A series. The Allegro didn't rust like buggery either, though I think the early Golfs did. I suspect that not many people have driven a Quartic wheeled Allegro, only the very early ones were so equipped, but I have. It worked very well.

 

I wouldn't think the Golf would be a major recipient of lost Allegro sales anyway, they would more likely go to the Ford Escort or Vauxhall Viva- both still soldiering on with first generation OHV engines.

 

Don't get me wrong, there was plenty wrong with the Allegro, both in build and design, but your case against seems to have been lifted straight from The Lazy Journalist's Big Book of Cars.

 

Besides, this is a forum for people who see the like cars that aren't conventionally good.

 

Allegro didn't rust like buggery? So that's why people of my father's generation recall the Allegro as a total rustbucket... Most Allegros had OHV engines, it was only the 1750 got OHC and five speeds, whereas all Golfs were OHC and most were five-speeders. My dad took his test on a Quartic Allegro and said it was totally hopeless. The fact is, the reason most people bought Allegros were because they were stuck to buying Austins or more generally British cars. For God's sake, the Marina sold like hot-cakes! But history has not judged it kindly, and, even though its replacement, the Maestro, was a vast improvement, there are hardly any BMC/BL-descended medium-sized cars on our roads today. The Rovers which replaced the Maestro were seen as staid, and Rover went bust. Meanwhile, a Golf has become a symbol of aspiration, a 'premium' product, reckoned to be pretty much the perfect car for today in GTI form (practical, refined, well-equipped, comfortable, nimble, fast and economical). If the All-Aggro had been good enough in the first place, the Mk1 Golf would hardly have sold, the Maestro would have had a better reputation to build upon, and who knows what might have happened beyond that...

[whitevanman]

what a fascinating view of the universe you have, what cars do you own ? which is the best vehicle you have driven? any pictures of the cars you own that you could post up and share with us?

[Guest EccentricRichard]

I remember my dad telling me of his driving instructor up near Dundee relating...

 

My sister's mate's cousin's next door neighbour said... yadda yadda...

 

I swear, that story is as true as true gets =)

[whitevanman]

I remember my dad telling me of his driving instructor up near Dundee relating...

 

My sister's mate's cousin's next door neighbour said... yadda yadda...

 

I swear, that story is as true as true gets =)

 

 

The trouble with that, is the world is full of stories that folk swear blind are true........but didn't actually happen quite like they say,

I could quote a few instances to you but it would probably bore the rest of the guys on here if I did

[Louise2cv]

My dad took his test on a Quartic Allegro and said it was totally hopeless.

 

So somebody elses 40 minute experience of one car (when they are new to driving) is enough for you to form an opinion?

 

My dad drove an Aero8 for a couple of miles down an airstrip, and said "it was alright yeah". Therefore I might consider one, but probably would decline because its an awful lot of money for something thats only "alright".

 

[scaryoldcortina]

I remember my dad telling me of his driving instructor up near Dundee relating...

 

My sister's mate's cousin's next door neighbour said... yadda yadda...

 

I swear, that story is as true as true gets =)

 

 

It is still heresay though.

 

I passed my test in a MG metro. It was brand new and rather nice to drive (despite the 4 speed box and 50's derived engine). My sister has a golf GTI, it gets seen once a year, and in 7 years hasn't needed more than servicing, MoT and tyres.

 

I've even owned and driven allegros. I won a series III 1275 on ebay once for £35 with T&T on it. It was no better and no worse to drive than the car I repaced, which was a Golf I, and terminally rotten. Golf went to weighbridge, allegro sold on for a profit.

 

Point is, everything is subjective, the subject here is autoshite, and you can bet a penny to a pound that everyone here has already heard all the stories already.

[Guest EccentricRichard]

what a fascinating view of the universe you have, what cars do you own ? which is the best vehicle you have driven? any pictures of the cars you own that you could post up and share with us?

 

Being a flat-broke full-time student, alas, I haven't got any cars, haven't yet had driving lessons, but merely understand a reasonable amount about how cars work (in detailed terms) and have a liking for all sorts of weird and wonderful cars that no-one else my age seems to understand... Formula Autos' post is, apart from its first line (in which he accuses me of not being a shiter), absolutely excellent, hitting the nail right on the head. Apologies to anyone I have offended!

 

Here are the two cars currently in my household (though sadly not being driven by me):

 

Previous cars in the family include an E30 318i Touring (G-reg, hence its name, Gustav, also influenced by my parents' love of Mahler and Holst, and my dad's background in warbird restoration - as in the Bf109G, also known as Gustav), a pair of Pug 205s (first a base-model 1-litre in dark blue, D96 PGO - known as Pogo - then a 1.4l Roland Garros special edition), a Citroen LNA (my mum's - she hated it and replaced it with Pogo), a Mini (replaced by the LNA), a Rover P6 3500S in Mexico Brown with Bronze Ambla vinyl interior (it was called Battlestar Galactica - eventually it got taken off the road due to rust and lack of rear seatbelts), an orange Mk2 Capri (Dad's - got nicked, burnt out then replaced by the P6), a light blue Mk3 Cortina 1.6, a red Mk3 Cortina 2.0 GXL (inherited by my dad from his father - quickly fell apart with rust, and so the Capri replaced both Cortinas), a Mk2 Humber Sceptre (my grandfather's, then my father's - Grandpa replaced it with the Cortina GXL), oh, and for a couple of years, as a temporary replacement for the P6, my dad ran his then newly-deceased mother's Volvo 340, until it broke a halfshaft and got replaced by the E30.

 

Maternal grandparents have also had various old Renaults, including a Dauphine, a Mk1 and a Mk2 Cortina, and, more recently, a Nissan Bluebird, which got replaced by a K-reg Primera saloon, which itself made way for a 52-reg Micra. Paternal grandparents had, before the Humber, a Triumph Herald estate (fell apart with rust), and, before that, an Austin Seven called Genevieve (for which we still have all the papers, plus an amusing story for another time, another place). My dad's paternal grandparents lived out in India, first in the Army, then working for the Raj, and, in the 1920s, were regular passengers on Imperial Airways, and had a huge limousine from a Belgian maker called Minerva (one of whose London dealerships was run by one C. S. Rolls...): later, after WW2, they worked out in East Africa in banking, and had a series of big six-cylinder Ford Zephyrs.

 

Right, that's my automotive credentials as far as I know them... do that lot qualify me as at least coming from a Shite family?

[Guest EccentricRichard]

My dad took his test on a Quartic Allegro and said it was totally hopeless.

 

So somebody elses 40 minute experience of one car (when they are new to driving) is enough for you to form an opinion?

 

My dad drove an Aero8 for a couple of miles down an airstrip, and said "it was alright yeah". Therefore I might consider one, but probably would decline because its an awful lot of money for something thats only "alright".

 

 

Sorry, by 'took his test' I meant not just that, but 'had driving lessons on'. Also, on a matter as simple as the shape of a car's steering wheel, yes, 40 minutes would be quite enough for most people...

[whitevanman]

considering the list, you have a very narrow minded view of vehicles and their pro's and con's.....hopefully you'll learn to change that once you can actually drive

[Guest EccentricRichard]

considering the list, you have a very narrow minded view of vehicles and their pro's and con's.....hopefully you'll learn to change that once you can actually drive

 

Oh, very probably.

 

Rule one in life - don't ever take too much notice of me

[wuvvum]

For the record, 1500 Allegros are OHC as well.

 

And most early 1100 and 1300 Golfs were 4-speed - it was the bigger-engined versions which got five gears, same as the Allegros.

 

As someone who has owned three Allegros and four Mk1 Golfs (plus a Jetta) let me just say that I had two of the Golfs and the Jetta fail MoT's on welding; none of the Allegros ever failed on rust-related issues.

[Louise2cv]

My dad took his test on a Quartic Allegro and said it was totally hopeless.

 

So somebody elses 40 minute experience of one car (when they are new to driving) is enough for you to form an opinion?

 

My dad drove an Aero8 for a couple of miles down an airstrip, and said "it was alright yeah". Therefore I might consider one, but probably would decline because its an awful lot of money for something thats only "alright".

 

 

Sorry, by 'took his test' I meant not just that, but 'had driving lessons on'. Also, on a matter as simple as the shape of a car's steering wheel, yes, 40 minutes would be quite enough for most people...

 

Oh in that case

 

No... I see what your saying, I learnt in a Saxo, IT WAS SHIT. It kept stalling, kangarooing and bumping curbs when I was trying to three-point turn. Also for the first two hours it wouldn't go above 15mph (on the local trading estate). For those reasons I will never buy a Saxo and will warn all others against them.

 

 

By the way... the quartic wheel is as close to a round thing as you can get without being a round thing. It isn't square, it doesn't have corners, it goes round and round much like an ordinary round steering wheel and makes the car go in the direction you want it. You can do push-pull steering and I tend to as a matter of fact.

 

What is the problem with a quartic wheel?

[Mr Lobster]

don't ever take too much notice of me

 

Probably the wisest thing you've said so far

[AnthonyG]

Golfs are not premium products, they are common as muck these days. They may be the default choice for middle class wives who actually need the interior space the BMW 1 series lacks, but that doesn't make them 'aspirational'.

[brammy777]

Lol what? I wondered why this thread had gone on for four pages! As far as I am concerned, these articles on these hugely knowledgable websites are only made to attract the sort of 'hey I know what this cars called, thus I am the mastermind of it' people so they can chortle to themselves about it, without actually knowing the square root of fuck all about it.

For the record, I have always avoided calling a car shit without actually experiencing it. I have driven a new Mini, I hated it. I rate the new Ford Fiesta higher than it. My parents had a F reg Sierra and they hated it, yet I still love them. It was heavy and fairly slow, but I still want one. My family has owned a succession of old Subarus (not anymore though), and I love them too. In my opinion, only judge what you have actually had experience with, otherwise you could really miss out.

Also all of the older cars in that list appear to have been judged based on todays design? What! You cant compare something a quarter of a century old to now.

[Louise2cv]

Just to add, I'm not some kind of quartic wheel fanatic, I just can't see what all the fuss is about. How many people that "couldn't use one of those" have actually tried?

 

Seems to me that people are prepared to knock a car for "a matter as simple as the shape of a car's steering wheel". A shape which has no bearing whatsoever on how the car works or its usefulness.Its just because its different. Car's made from metal rust. So the arguements against BL seem a bit harsh. Yes build quality was an issue, but for me it was the "and then my rear wheel overtook me" or "so I jacked it up and the window popped out" stories that attracted me to the car!

 

The quartic wheel was a gimmick. A badly recieved gimmick. It added nothing to the cars perfomance, but it didn't damage it either. The talking dash is a gimmick, does it make a car hopeless/useless/bad... or does it just add something to either enjoy or poke fun at?

 

With all due respect to people who learnt in a car and went on to hate it... learning to drive is quite different to driving! In lessons you won't find out about motorway performance, fuel consumption, how much you can or can't ram into the boot, ease of maintenance, comfort on long distance journeys, etc etc. Added to that there's also the fact you are making a judgement about "how well a car drives" when you can't actually drive yourself!

 

I also respect other peoples opinions, but please, don't knock 'til you've tried it! If you want, you can have a go in mine!

[garethj]

Seems to me that people are prepared to knock a car for "a matter as simple as the shape of a car's steering wheel". A shape which has no bearing whatsoever on how the car works or its usefulness.Its just because its different.

I'd get behind this wheel

[Guest EccentricRichard]

Golfs are not premium products, they are common as muck these days. They may be the default choice for middle class wives who actually need the interior space the BMW 1 series lacks, but that doesn't make them 'aspirational'.

 

Shows what you know about Golfs. Look at their prices - generally at least 4k more than the equivalent Kia or Hyundai or whatever. There is a perception that the Golf is better to drive, better-built, more prestigious. Some of that is justified, some isn't. What you cannot deny is that people are prepared to pay extra for all these... and then, for those for whom the Golf ain't posh enough, there's the Audi A3... but those who're in the know would have the Skoda Octavia, being the best-built, best-riding, best-handling, best-equipped, roomiest and best value of the four platform sisters (Octavia, A3, Golf, Leon).

[garethj]

Shows what you know about Golfs. Look at their prices - generally at least 4k more than the equivalent Kia or Hyundai or whatever.

New Golf, Kia or Hyundai?

 

All a bit meh to be honest. I'd rather spend £12k on something enjoyable, such as:

 

Peugeot 504 coupe, Talbot Tagora V6, a Matra Rancho and a Panhard 24, that's without moving from ebay.fr Others sensible choices are available, see the ebay thread here for details.

 

And you'd still need another car to actually get you about when that lot had broken down, perhaps a nice 1980s Golf for example

[Louise2cv]

I'm much the same, I can't ever see me buying a new car. None really appeal to me that much and those designs I do like I'd happily wait until they became available cheaply. I don't know where this attitude comes from. I've never spent more than £1000 on a car.

 

Even with a baby on the way (and even with boring queues of people waiting to tell me "you can't take a baby in that" again and again) I'm in no rush for a newer car.

 

Matt has a Golf (2004) it drives around (and has flashed more warning lights at us than I had problems with the 2cv but that's by-the-by) and it seats 5 and can take a lot of shit to the tip. But there's nothing that really sets it apart from either the 2cv or the Allegro. Except maybe how much crap you can take to the tip in it in comparison with the aggro... meh I wouldn't want to get it dirty .

 

I was in the market for a car not long ago and the most conventional/modern runners were a mid '80's BMW estate (couldn't even tell you what model ) a Pug 205 or maybe a Mk3 astra estate if desparate. The rest were cars Mr Clarkson would squash with a skip sooner than look at.

 

Like you say, imagine how much shite you could buy with the same cash as you'd fork out for a Golf!

[scruff]

what a fascinating view of the universe you have, what cars do you own ? which is the best vehicle you have driven? any pictures of the cars you own that you could post up and share with us?

 

Being a flat-broke full-time student, alas, I haven't got any cars, haven't yet had driving lessons, but merely understand a reasonable amount about how cars work (in detailed terms) and have a liking for all sorts of weird and wonderful cars that no-one else my age seems to understand... Formula Autos' post is, apart from its first line (in which he accuses me of not being a shiter), absolutely excellent, hitting the nail right on the head. Apologies to anyone I have offended!

 

Here are the two cars currently in my household (though sadly not being driven by me):

 

Previous cars in the family include an blah blah blah blah?

 

LOL

[Lankytim]

Richard, have some driving lessons, pass the test then i'll let you take my Allegro for spin if you like. Then you can say with authority if you like it or not .

 

BTW, the MK1 Golf was every bit as rot prone as the Allegro.

[messerschmitt owner]

BTW, the MK1 Golf was every bit as rot prone as the Allegro.

you could always try my messerschmitt too - it has handlebars for steering

 

and you don't see any early golfs for a very good reason - from 1977 on IIRC they were better rust protected - the early ones were as bad as any 1970s Fiat.

[AnthonyG]

but those who're in the know would have the Skoda Octavia, being the best-built, best-riding, best-handling, best-equipped, roomiest and best value of the four platform sisters (Octavia, A3, Golf, Leon).

 

Given you haven't actually driven any of them, I guess you are basing this opinion on what you read in magazines?

[ChinaTom]

[diplomacy] We may ought to colour our judgement and cut appropriate levels of slack in line with the fact that EccRich is a '91 vintage - I would have similar confidence in my opinions at that age - ultimately a useful demographic for the cause eh?[/diplomacy]

 

[M'coli]

Even with a baby on the way (and even with boring queues of people waiting to tell me "you can't take a baby in that" again and again) I'm in no rush for a newer car.

People making statements like that deserve an answer along the lines of "Is that what car owners in the 70s should have done too? That would have meant putting off having children for around 3 decades until they could buy a car with ABS and airbags?"

 

Ok, so it doesn't have ISO fixings for the latest child seats, but it does have a steel parcel shelf.

[Louise2cv]

I'm too polite but I'd really like to say:

 

(A) I can do what I want thanks; and

( I'm not totally reckless.

 

Do they really think I'm just going to lob the baby in the back and let it slide around on the vinyl seats? (Even though this is what I have vague recollections ofdoing when I was a toddler and what they probably did with their kids.).

[garethj]

and you don't see any early golfs for a very good reason - from 1977 on IIRC they were better rust protected - the early ones were as bad as any 1970s Fiat.

In the mid 1980s my mum had a 1978 Golf and it went very rusty. 1100cc with a 4 speed box for loads of noise at 60+mph

 

The 1.8GTi was much better, but not a patch on the Alfasud Sprint I had at the same time. VW's marketing was spot-on though