Dick's Lambretta adventures - DooVLA send some info! (ish)

[Dick Cheeseburger]

PR shots I'm assuming...

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Interesting post from Tippers.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

I just spotted this post from @Cavcraft and it got me thinking. 

Series 3 Li Lambrettas are the last of the cheapies. I'm a series 2 convert these days after owning various series 3s but still like the simplicity of their looks. 

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the values of Italian Lammies over the next decade. There must be more on the road now than there were years ago thanks to the constant supply of Italian imports making their way onto these shores. Despite that, I'm seeing more and more owners buying modern Royal Alloy Lambretta-a-likes. I'm assuming the Lambretta values will eventually drop a bit as they're ousted by owners in favour of modern twist and go scooters. Or will diehard fans continue to keep hold of their classic machines? 

I've no intention of letting my 1960 series 2 go in the foreseeable future, regardless. 

 

[Cavcraft]

It'll be interesting to see what happens. It's quite funny how some of the 'plastic shit/Chinese rubbish/no proper scooter fan would own one of them' gang  are now turning to modern automatics and it's gone from being one of just two auto owners at a big meet up or ride out, to stacks and stacks of them.

They won't ever be as fun as a (2T) Lambretta or Vespa and so far I don't think market values of either of them have dropped, probably the reverse.  Indian GPs have perhaps levelled out a little, mind.  The S2 is a proper nice looking thing.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

20 years back at rallies, some previous traditionalists were buying modern four stroke twist and go Vespas and raving about how fast, comfortable and reliable they were. I reckon the Royal Alloys have largely replaced those Vespas. They're  even more popular than the Vespas though I reckon, as they look a bit like old Lambrettas if you squint when drunk. 

The market is flooded with Italian import Lammys now though so, combined with the shift to Royal Alloy, I'm convinced values of traditional machines are no longer going northwards. Maybe I need to keep an eye on the market for a series 2 tv175... 😂

[Cavcraft]

44 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said:

20 years back at rallies, some previous traditionalists were buying modern four stroke twist and go Vespas and raving about how fast, comfortable and reliable they were. I reckon the Royal Alloys have largely replaced those Vespas. They're  even more popular than the Vespas though I reckon, as they look a bit like old Lambrettas if you squint when drunk. 

The market is flooded with Italian import Lammys now though so, combined with the shift to Royal Alloy, I'm convinced values of traditional machines are no longer going northwards. Maybe I need to keep an eye on the market for a series 2 tv175... 😂

The brief (iirc) was that the Scomadi TL was as close to the Lambretta as possible, so that even things like the rear racks from the originals would fit.  Paul Mellici (spelling?) from PM Tuning and Frank Sanders set the company up, then R.A basically just ripped their design off (allegedly, of course) and Scomadi took them to court, losing  a hell of a lot of money in the process, and not really gaining anything. Scomadi floundered, you couldn't really get their scooters during the 'war' with R.A, then the latter pretty much cleaned up the market in the U.K.

Lambretta themselves then got involved by making their own copy of the original, and laughably it ended up not only looking less like a Lambretta than a Scomadi or R.A, but also looked sodding awful at the same time.

Would love a TV, but I'd be worried whether it actually was one, or another 'RS Mexico job' where someone had built one using a TV log book and an Li frame, or something.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Just spotted this photo of some early 70s GP Supertune Lammies from back in the day. 

Interesting to see the scooter in the foreground has the older style black and white plate, yet the G and H plate next to it have gone for the modern yellow and black alternative. 

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Latest acquisition. 1961 Norman Nippy. Could  be interesting...

[LightBulbFun]

2 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Latest acquisition. 1961 Norman Nippy. Could  be interesting...

you are @AdgeCutler AICMFP

I can source an Invacar Mk12E for you if you want the full house?

[Cavcraft]

On 26/10/2024 at 16:29, Dick Longbridge said:

Latest acquisition. 1961 Norman Nippy. Could  be interesting...

That's ace, but don't brake too hard or you'll end up with some knacker shaped dents in the petrol tank if you don't adjust the seat!

[Dick Cheeseburger]

On 29/10/2024 at 17:53, Cavcraft said:

That's ace, but don't brake too hard or you'll end up with some knacker shaped dents in the petrol tank if you don't adjust the seat!

Ha! The seat just needed a quick tighten up and job was a good'un. 

The bike was last on the road in 1978. I have an up to date V5 for it and now need to register it for tax and MOT exemption. Any ideas? A quick Google suggests I need to start with from V112...

[Cavcraft]

'Officially' I think you have to take the V5 to your nearest Post Office, fill the form (V112?) in and then send it away to the DVLA. Sometimes (if you're lucky) you can tax it online and it'll let you select the MOT exempt  option and DVLA will then refund the tax and send a new log book out in a few weeks time. It doesn't always work, but if you want to get out on the road quick smart, it can be worth doing.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

On 31/10/2024 at 12:27, Cavcraft said:

'Officially' I think you have to take the V5 to your nearest Post Office, fill the form (V112?) in and then send it away to the DVLA. Sometimes (if you're lucky) you can tax it online and it'll let you select the MOT exempt  option and DVLA will then refund the tax and send a new log book out in a few weeks time. It doesn't always work, but if you want to get out on the road quick smart, it can be worth doing.

I ended up downloading the V112 and handed it into the post office along with my V5 yesterday. They've sent it off and hopefully I'll hear back in a few weeks. The fella on the PO counter did ask if wanted the bike taxed for tomorrow (which is now today) and I agreed. It's still showing as tax due on July 1st 1978 on the system 24 hours later though, so no idea what's going on there. 

[Cavcraft]

It can take a while to show on the system. If you got a receipt you could take it with you if you go for a ride.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

22 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

It can take a while to show on the system. If you got a receipt you could take it with you if you go for a ride.

Unfortunately, haven't got a receipt. Foolishly, I didn't take a photo of the V5 before the fella swiped it and informed me I'll be receiving a new one soon*. 

[Cavcraft]

You'll probably be ok, it can take a few days to update the system.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

23 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

You'll probably be ok, it can take a few days to update the system.

Pleased to see it's now showing as taxed for first time in 46 years!

[Dick Cheeseburger]

So, the Nippy sold. Time to get back to the trusty Series 2 when I can find it at the back of the garage again... 

[autopaul]

39 minutes ago, Dick Cheeseburger said:

So, the Nippy sold. Time to get back to the trusty Series 2 when I can find it at the back of the garage again... 

Any idea of prices of series 2 li125's these days? Need to rescue mine from my mates lock up this summer and finish off building it back up

[Dick Cheeseburger]

10 hours ago, autopaul said:

Any idea of prices of series 2 li125's these days? Need to rescue mine from my mates lock up this summer and finish off building it back up

They've stagnated a bit, tbh. More info would help - is it an original paint import? Restored UK Lammy? Stick some photos on here as it would be interesting to see, regardless!

[Dick Cheeseburger]

This one's restored and £4k. 

https://www.facebook.com/share/1A528CVU13/

[autopaul]

It was having custom paint done and full restoration. Everything was done just needed building back up. But it has been up at my mates lack up for about 3 years now. Slowly getting round to finishing these projects off.

 

I sold the cream and red one about  years ago for 3600 so yeah prices haven't really changed much.

[LightBulbFun]

11 hours ago, Dick Cheeseburger said:

So, the Nippy sold. Time to get back to the trusty Series 2 when I can find it at the back of the garage again... 

I admit my internal thought process while reading this was "you have a Land Rover?! *then longer then it should of taken* "oh right he means Lambretta"

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Years ago I sent a fiver to DooV LA for details on previous owners for my mk2 Golf VR6. The Welsh duly obliged and posted a meaty envelope laden with 16 owners worth of v5 photocopies. Fascinating reading at the time. 

Obviously in the interim, lots of elements of freedom we previously took for granted have been taken away, including access to this service. Imagine my surprise when a member on here posted that the 'old v5s for a fiver' service had been resumed, albeit without name and address details, thanks to GDPR. 

I immediately jumped on board, dug out the dusty chequebook and sent off the request. Whilst waiting for a reply, I read on here that DooVLA had decided that they were being selective about applications and were rejecting some applications. Great. Nothing ventured, nothing gained though. 

Yesterday, a familiar-looking beige envelope was waiting on the doormat when returning home, and sure enough, it contained some history of my Lambretta. However, the detail was scant - a couple of v5 front cover photocopies (with name/address details blanked out), a list of owners since the Lambretta was re-registered in 1996 (on its original registration fortunately, after dropping off the revamped DVLA system in the 1980s due to its extended slumber from the 70s until the 90s) and an apology letter for lack of photocopied detail. 

It also didn't make any sense how it claimed the original owner owned the Lambretta from 1960 until 1996, when the original buff logbook I have here shows several owners until the early 70s. I guess DVLA must have lost those details on their system at some point? 

Whatever the case, 1996 is the significant year for this Lambretta. It looks to have been pulled from very long-term storage at the time, given a basic makeover, re-registered on its old plate thanks to the buff logbook still existing and then put back on the road. 

The irony is that the value of this Lambretta in 1996 is what saved it. Values continued to climb until pretty much when I bought it three years ago. Ever since, they've levelled and now started to drop slightly. Lots of owners run modern Chinese Lambretta lookalikes now (no thanks) and the generation of original owners has pretty much gone. 

I'd like to think the fact this one now has a decent history attached to it makes it a little more interesting than the hordes of imports which have no traceable backstory at all. It's done well to survive in the UK for the last 65 years!

On 18/11/2023 at 20:42, Dick Cheeseburger said:

I've been meaning to update this for ages. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I managed to track a fair bit of history on the previous owners up until the 70s. It really helped having the original buff logbook with owners details showing. 

The owners I have details on (until the early 70s) were as follows:

1. Joseph McDonald, Swinton Road, Mexborough. 

2. Robert Anderson,  Flintway, Wath on Dearne.

3. Geoffrey Robert Anderson,  Woodside Avenue, Wath On Dearne

4. Morris William Todd, Flintway, Wath On Dearne. 

5. George Frederick Sellars,  Varney Road, Wath On Dearne. 

So, to start with, it turns out first 'owner' Joe McDonald was the name of the dealership in Mexborough. Apparently there was a railway embankment behind the dealership and the new Lambrettas would be delivered on a goods train and rolled down the embankment. I've managed to find a 1960s advert for the dealership which I'm going to shrink down and fit into a clear keyring. 

Onto Robert Anderson and Geoff Anderson (second and third owners). Robert was owner on paper only for some reason. His son, Geoff was the actual owner of the Lambretta. Geoff passed away about three years ago so I just missed out on being able to send him photos of the Lambretta now. His daughter, Liz got in contact after I posted asking for information on the scooter.

She managed to find this book but no photos of the Lambretta itself unfortunately. She was really pleased that her father's old Lambretta was still going though. 

Liz's cousin, Claire also got in contact, explaining Geoff was her uncle and Liz is her cousin. She also went on to explain the next, fourth owner, Morris Todd, was her godfather. Interesting link!

So, onto fourth owner Morris Todd. This is the best bit, really. About a year after posting on a Facebook page asking for any old photos or help with the history of my Lambretta, Morris' son, Dave randomly posted a photo of him sat on a bike in his childhood garden in the early 1970s. He'd just discovered the image on a slide from his father's belongings and realised his father's scooter, which just happened to be 5554WU featured in the photo too! Bingo!

To this day, I'm chuffed to bits with this photo, even though it's grainy. Ultimately, I've managed to find a photo of my Lambretta from more than 50 years ago. Result. 

Looking at the photo, you can just about make out the WU lettering on the number plate on the front mudguard. I spy some (now very collectible and valuable) side panel and horncast embellishers. How battered is it though, considering it was just over a decade old? I guess it was a relatively cheap, disposable runaround though and it was used daily and in all weathers. 

Dave went on to tell me the following:

"I am on my bike in the photo - it must be early 1970’s. Dad used the scooter for work. He worked at the Rotherham GPO garage repairing the Post Office vehicles. I remember a number of neighbours children used to wait for Dad to return home from work and one by one he would give each one a ride ‘around the block’ on the scooter. I cannot remember how long Dad owned the scooter. Glad you like the photo, I knew I had one somewhere 👍"

I love the fact that Dave's dad used to give the local kids 'backies' and that it made lots of people smile. 

At some point after this in the 1970s, Dave's dad sold the Lambretta to George Sellars. 

Liz, who I mentioned earlier on, asked George's son Andrew, who she went to school with, if he knew anything about the Lambretta after spotting this photo of Andrew on a scooter in the 1980s.

Unfortunately Andrew knew nothing of the Lambretta and that's where the trail goes cold. All the scooters in the photo are Vespas, by the way 😉. 

The next time WU changes hands is 1996. My theory is somebody owned the scooter from the mid 70s, shoved it into a shed for whatever reason and then forgot about it until the mid 90s. I wish I could work out who/why this happened as the mid 70s were the point where most 60s Lambrettas were worn out, worth virtually nothing and subsequently scrapped.

Fortunately, by the mid 90s, values were very much on the up and this Lambretta was dragged out and pushed back into service. It then went through a few colour changes including black and green and then black and cream. I wonder if the 20 years in a shed killed the original engine and a larger lump was then fitted. The current 150 engine isn't the same engine number as the original. 

Eventually, in 2015, the scooter was given a resto in a scooter shop in Sheffield and then last year, it finally left the North after more than 60 years to live in Cornwall. 

The next chapter is my responsibility!

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Dick Cheeseburger said:

It also didn't make any sense how it claimed the original owner owned the Lambretta from 1960 until 1996, when the original buff logbook I have here shows several owners until the early 70s. I guess DVLA must have lost those details on their system at some point? 

thats normal, when a vehicle is computerised with the DVLA the keeper info/keeper count from the buff logbook is *not* carried over

old V5's used to explictly state the computrisation date for this reason, see the Morris Minor logbook above and how it states "No Of Former Keepers 4 Since April 77" that date being when the moggie was computrised from its VE60 (Buff logbook) to the V5 scheme, and they put that note there to say "before this date, it could of had 100 previous keepers"

*but* most system software that deals with counting keepers etc, like the letter, will just *assume* the first keeper on computer-record has had the vehicle since its date of first registration, when thats not always the case!

 

(sadly as you can see from the Modern V5 of any old vehicle they dont include this info anymore, tho I do belive they still have the data, from when I was involved in the V888'ing of an Invacar Mk12, they where able to tell us when the vehicle was computerised)

 

2 hours ago, Dick Cheeseburger said:

and an apology letter for lack of photocopied detail. 

that apology is rather worrying! something like that should not happen, there should be photo copies of the evidence used to claim the original VRM/proof of age, and the V55/5 that would of been used to set up the vehicle record, if something as recent as 1996 like that has gone walkies, I would be rather worried!

[MrBig]

1 hour ago, Dick Cheeseburger said:

Yesterday, a familiar-looking beige envelope was waiting on the doormat when returning home, and sure enough, it contained some history of my Lambretta. However, the detail was scant - a couple of v5 front cover photocopies (with name/address details blanked out), a list of owners since the Lambretta was re-registered in 1996 (on its original registration fortunately, after dropping off the revamped DVLA system in the 1980s due to its extended slumber from the 70s until the 90s) and an apology letter for lack of photocopied detail. 

At least you got something back, I sent mine off about the same time it was mentioned on here (mid-July maybe) and have had absolutely nothing back 😭

[Dick Cheeseburger]

57 minutes ago, MrBig said:

At least you got something back, I sent mine off about the same time it was mentioned on here (mid-July maybe) and have had absolutely nothing back 😭

Same time I sent off for mine. What reason did you give for requesting the info? I mentioned that I'd be interested to know when/where it's changed keeper over the years (plus any other historical information they're able to share) - basically info I know they're able to share without GDPR being an issue. 

[mk2_craig]

2 hours ago, Dick Cheeseburger said:

an apology letter for lack of photocopied detail

I had something similar when requesting records for a C-reg Fiesta (back in about 2007) as the car had been previously used overseas and not UK registered until Oct 86.  I was keen to know what the previous country was and the date of first reg, this must have been specified somewhere to ensure that it wasnt passed off as a brand new car and given a D prefix, but Swansea said they couldn't find anything. Perhaps those sorts of documents were shredded after a while. 

I did get a full set of previous owner names and addresses though, so this must have been well before they started reacting those details. 

[MrBig]

1 hour ago, Dick Cheeseburger said:

Same time I sent off for mine. What reason did you give for requesting the info? I mentioned that I'd be interested to know when/where it's changed keeper over the years (plus any other historical information they're able to share) - basically info I know they're able to share without GDPR being an issue. 

I can't remember the exact wording, but it was along the same lines. 

[Dick Cheeseburger]

29 minutes ago, MrBig said:

I can't remember the exact wording, but it was along the same lines. 

Hang on in there, in that case. Give it a couple more weeks - you never know.