TUD 5 timing troubles - PLEASE HELP!

[KruJoe]

Wor Will is having bother timing up his 106 1.5 D after swapping a Bosch pump onto it. He swears he has all the timing holes correctly pinned (crank/cam-hub/pump-hub).

 

Once he has the belt back on and tensioned, turning it by hand, it soon locks up (valve/piston interference?) WTF's he doing wrong? He says the car's not in gear. Injectors are out (no compression).

 

All online instructions either repeat what HBOL says, or says the HBOL is shit. Does anyone have access to Autodata or any different set of distructions to help a brother out?

[twosmoke300]

Cam pin is at 5 o'clock iirc and pin in flywheel (8mm) . Sometimes the flywheel has extra balance holes in but these usually don't feel as deep or as positive as the proper one.

Can send you autodata info morro if you like

[twosmoke300]

Pump pulley isn't a different size is it ?

[scaryoldcortina]

I was going to mention the balance holes too - it's a common cause of cockups. It's best to always verify the crank pin by checking the alignment on the cam and pump pulleys before removing the old belt. Did he do this?

[twosmoke300]

I'm gonna take a wild stab and say no 😄

[KruJoe]

Lolz, 'course not...

 

Only one hole in his flywheel. Pump wheels are the same.

Stand by, he's at a computer now.

[KruJoe]

PS, thanks Scary and Phil, you were the two names I mentioned who might have answers!

[twosmoke300]

May only be one hole but sometimes there are little metal tags welded to the back of the flywheel which feel like holes

[KruJoe]

The back of the flywheel feels smooth, with just the one hole, maybe half an inch deep, which the peg drops into.

 

He also denies having dropped anything down the injector holes.

[scaryoldcortina]

It's indirect injection so anything down the injector hole is going to end up in the swirl pot anyway.

 

At this point I'd be verifying TDC by pulling no4 glow plug and probing for the top of the piston.

[twosmoke300]

Don't they go into the swirl pot at 90 deg ish on those . Could be tricky to poke anything down there . A bit of timex( tipex) would have been your friend here

[scaryoldcortina]

They might well do, it's been a while since I had the head off one. I was hoping the glow went straight into the combustion chamber!

 

Pull the cam out completely and blu-tac a whistle into no1 injector hole?

[twosmoke300]

If the cam is set right the valves should be closed on no1 (4 in French speak ) so the whistle would work .

Another thought - the key way on the crank is usually at the 12 o'clock position when it's at tdc. Usually ! Does this relate to the pin going in ?

At least it's a keyed one . The modern ones with no keys get interesting

[scaryoldcortina]

I was thinking cam and crank are out from each other causing the lockup because the pump shouldn't come into it at all when turning by hand. Check then that keyway is up and valve lobes are pointing up on no 1 (rock on tommy no 4), then recheck the pins. If it's all still right then something fell in onto a piston. I've only ever seen one swirl pot fall out, but it isn't impossible.

 

Good point on the keyway though, and yeah, keyless ones are interesting. The laguna is like that. 100% requires locking up with pins before doing anything because if you don't you have broken it.

[explosive-cabbage]

Its a flipping nightmare, I've been on with trying to get this timed since this time yesterday.

 

There isn't anything in the bores, as I have turned the crank over 360 degrees with no resistance anywhere (moving the valves out of the way whilst I did it of course)

All components of the timing system turn freely independently of each other, so no single part is jamming the rest, it definately has a positive metallic feel when the piston strikes the valve.

 

I have the injectors out, and can slip a stiff cable tie down the injector holes to feel the approximate locations of the pistons, all seem to be okay and match to TDC.

 

There is definately only one hole in the flywheel, but I will whip the crankshaft sprocket off tonight and have a look at the postion of the woodruff key at TDC.

 

It jams up about 1/8th turn (at the camshaft and injector pump) after TDC.

 

The Haynes manual is a load of bollocks, I have tried 8 or 10 times to time it, just as they say, and no luck. Joe even ran through it with me word by word and it didn't work.

[scaryoldcortina]

Deffo time to eyball the cam timing by looking at the lobes then. No 1 should be straight up (closed) and no4 rocking when the pin is locking the pulley. 1/8 of a turn (45 deg) on the cam is 90 on the crank so that's no 2 or 3 coming up onto an open exhaust valve.

 

Edit - I'm still puzzled, because however you work it there is a corresponding pot that should have an open valve in the way at no1 top. Makes no difference if you work it out for early inlet instead of late exhaust too.

[explosive-cabbage]

On this engine (and XUDs) the cylinder order is

Cambelt - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - Gearbox

 

Firing order is 1-3-4-2.

 

I've just checked the woodruff key slot on the crank.

 

With the flywheel locked at TDC the woodruff key on the crank points straight up, as expected.

 

With the flywheel still locked and the cam locked, the pistons are right to the top in cylinders 1 and 4, and right at the bottom in 2 and 3.

 

Cylinder 1 intake is about to open, and the exhaust has just shut.

 

On cylinder 4, lobes are pointing at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock.

 

Exhaust is about to open on cylinder 3.

 

This all looks about right to me!

[scaryoldcortina]

Yeah, that is right. Something else is causing it, it's not a timing problem.

 

Edit - did you make sure your new* diesel pump actually turns?

[Lacquer Peel]

I think the pump is off bub's Saxo which ran okay apart from the gearbox.

 

It sounds like you've done everything right, I'm baffled.

[explosive-cabbage]

Yes, I checked that the pump turned over fine independently of the rest of the system.

 

It came off the Bubbered Saxo in which the engine ran whilst I A-framed it back from Derbyshire.

 

The car is definately out of gear, and when it jams the whole of the engine rocks on its mounts.

[twosmoke300]

The bolts that hold the pump hub / oval plate aren't too long are they ? Catching the casting as it turns - or Bosch pump uses a different casting and the pulley hits it

[explosive-cabbage]

Do you think it would be worth lifting out the cam to relive pressure on the valves and and checking that the bottom end spins freely on the starter?

[twosmoke300]

Would confirm that's it's the piston hitting the valves I suppose

[scaryoldcortina]

I wouldn't go anywhere near the starter until you can turn it by hand. Whip the belt off and double check that you can turn the pump pulley a full 360 degrees.

[explosive-cabbage]

The bolts that hold the pump hub / oval plate aren't too long are they ? Catching the casting as it turns - or Bosch pump uses a different casting and the pulley hits it

 

Actually.....maybe. I left the bolts holding the sprocket to the Bosch pump hub on the strut tops of the donor car in the feild, and used the Lucas ones instead.

 

I'll rescue them now measure them with the vernier calipers.

[twosmoke300]

Have you left that oval plate off ?

[explosive-cabbage]

I wouldn't go anywhere near the starter until you can turn it by hand. Whip the belt off and double check that you can turn the pump pulley a full 360 degrees.

 

FUCK, cos I checked the pump turned without the cambelt sprocket on, just with a spanner onto the drive bolt on the pump. Ill be back in a second

[twosmoke300]

Hurry up , this is killing me

[explosive-cabbage]

So thats the problem.

 

4mm is the difference between spending 6 hours on a job and 36 hours on it.

 

 

Fucking French knob warblers.

 

[twosmoke300]

Permission to feel smug ? Sir!