Why ROOTES?

[PaykanHunter]

Here is a 1$ million dollar question for you. Why Rootes was chosen for the Paykan contract back in 1966?

 

Facts:

- Shah of Iran visits Rootes Coventry factory in October 1965.

- IranNational (private Company) signed the contract with Rootes around spring of 1966. That is about a year before Paykan production started in Spring of 1967.

- Arrow production started in the UK in October 1966. 

 

So at the time of the Paykan contract, or the Shah's visit only prototypes of Hunter were available. Not actual cars. 

 

It seems very odd to trust Rootes with dodgy financial problems (granted Chrysler had 30% of Rootes back then), to sign a contract full assembly of Paykans in Iran. We have found out that full body panel pressing was underway at the beginning of Paykan production. 

 

Few people have suggested that perhaps either Iran or the UK had some debts to each other and also the UK government was trying to help the troubled companies, so perhaps there were some behind the door dealing was going on? 

 

Any inside into this is fully appreciated by me here at the PaykanHunter HQ!  

 

[Richard]

Good salesmanship I reckon.

[warren t claim]

Alexi Sayle went into detail about the deal in one of his columns.

[PaykanHunter]

Alexi Sayle went into detail about the deal in one of his columns.

You mean this article? It is well written but its not conclusive I'm afraid. Thanks for the tip thu. 

 

http://chemengforum.blogspot.com/2007/04/alexei-sayle-heres-why-iranians-hate-us.html

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Could it be something to do with Geoffrey Rootes ( Billy Junior) who must have been in charge by that point, being an influential figure in the NED (?) which was a pre EU thing to develop trade and the economy in the 60's and early 70's .

Presumably the Shah would have been courted by the Goverment to invest anywhere as long as it was a British company and Young Billy then used his influence to point him towards Ryton.

[seth]

Not sure quite how tongue in cheek Alexi Sayles column is.  When the Paykan was first produced it was a brand new up to the minute (traditional) European car so not a 'clapped out old car forced on the Persians'  At the time of the Iranian revolution in 1979 they were still in production here too but the British didn't exactly see that as a reason for throwing out the existing government and bring in a dictatorial regime.

 

Oh, hang on...

[NorfolkNWeigh]

From what I can see ,after William Rootes death ,his brother Reginald took over as chairman but Geoffrey was MD until the Chrysler takeover when he became chairman. He was also chairman of the NEDC in the 70's.

It seems he published his memoirs just before his death in 1992, it was a private printing with only 200 copies printed, perhaps the library at Beaulieu might have a copy. Although if something underhand occurred he's unlikely to have put his hands up.

[PaykanHunter]

Could it be something to do with Geoffrey Rootes ( Billy Junior) who must have been in charge by that point, being an influential figure in the NED (?) which was a pre EU thing to develop trade and the economy in the 60's and early 70's .

Presumably the Shah would have been courted by the Goverment to invest anywhere as long as it was a British company and Young Billy then used his influence to point him towards Ryton.

That is fascinating!!!!.... Billy Junior was standing beside Shah at the Paykan opening ceremony. Paykan factory was very important to Rootes indeed. It was so important that they didn't care the Paykan didn't carry any British badge. It was all in Persian. What was NED? Can you explain more please.  

[PaykanHunter]

From what I can see ,after William Rootes death ,his brother Reginald took over as chairman but Geoffrey was MD until the Chrysler takeover when he became chairman. He was also chairman of the NEDC in the 70's.

It seems he published his memoirs just before his death in 1992, it was a private printing with only 200 copies printed, perhaps the library at Beaulieu might have a copy. Although if something underhand occurred he's unlikely to have put his hands up.

HOLY CRAP!... Billy Junior had a memoir? I really need to get my hands on a copy? You mean Beaulieu National Motor Museum?... 

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Rootes, G.

Carpe diem : the memoirs of Geoffrey Rootes / Geoffrey Rootes. - [s.l.] : priv. pub., 1991

Notes: Private edition of 200 copies

Subject: Rootes, Geoffrey

Document Type: Autobiography

 

Found this here,which is interesting in itself

http://www.imps4ever.info/marques/rootes.html.

 

William Geoffrey Rootes, 2nd Baron Rootes1

M, #561647, b. 14 June 1917, d. 1992

Last Edited=5 Feb 2013

William Geoffrey Rootes, 2nd Baron Rootes was born on 14 June 1917.2 He is the son of William Edward Rootes, 1st Baron Rootes and Nora Press.2 He married Marian Haytor on 15 August 1946.2 He died in 1992.2

He was educated Harrow and Ch Ch Oxford.2 He was T/Major Royal Army Service Corps WW II.2 He was dau of Lieutenant-Colonel Herbert Roche Haytor, Companion, Distinguished Service Order (D.S.O.).2 He was also known as 2nd Baron Rootes.2 He was chairman Rootes Motors, Chrysler UK , Game Conservancy 1975–79, memb Nat Advsy Cncl for Motor Mfg Industry, Cncl, Cncl CBI 1967–74 and Warwick U 1968–74, NEDC Motor Manufacturing Industry 1968–73, UK Cncl World Wildlife Fund 1979 and Management Ct in 1967.2

Children of William Geoffrey Rootes, 2nd Baron Rootes and Marian Haytor

Hon. Sally Hayter Rootes2 b. 12 Sep 1947

Nicholas Geoffrey Rootes, 3rd Baron Rootes2 b. 12 Jul 1951

Citations

[s37] BP2003 volume 3, page 3389. See link for full details for this source. Hereinafter cited as. [s37]

[s37] BP2003. [s37]

[holbeck]

There's a bit about this in a book called 'the motor makers' I read it some time ago but I remember that Rootes received a telex from Tehran suggesting that the Shah's representatives would be available at a hotel in London on a certain date to hear proposals for a car project.

 

This telex was sent to all UK manufacturers, but only Rootes took it seriously.

[PaykanHunter]

There's a bit about this in a book called 'the motor makers' I read it some time ago but I remember that Rootes received a telex from Tehran suggesting that the Shah's representatives would be available at a hotel in London on a certain date to hear proposals for a car project.

 

This telex was sent to all UK manufacturers, but only Rootes took it seriously.

You mean this book? by Martin Adeney

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motor-Makers-Turbulent-Britains-Industry/dp/0002177870/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

[PaykanHunter]

Rootes, G.

Carpe diem : the memoirs of Geoffrey Rootes / Geoffrey Rootes. - [s.l.] : priv. pub., 1991

Notes: Private edition of 200 copies

Subject: Rootes, Geoffrey

Document Type: Autobiography

 

Found this here,which is interesting in itself

http://www.imps4ever.info/marques/rootes.html.

 

William Geoffrey Rootes, 2nd Baron Rootes1

M, #561647, b. 14 June 1917, d. 1992

Last Edited=5 Feb 2013

William Geoffrey Rootes, 2nd Baron Rootes was born on 14 June 1917.2 He is the son of William Edward Rootes, 1st Baron Rootes and Nora Press.2 He married Marian Haytor on 15 August 1946.2 He died in 1992.2

He was educated Harrow and Ch Ch Oxford.2 He was T/Major Royal Army Service Corps WW II.2 He was dau of Lieutenant-Colonel Herbert Roche Haytor, Companion, Distinguished Service Order (D.S.O.).2 He was also known as 2nd Baron Rootes.2 He was chairman Rootes Motors, Chrysler UK , Game Conservancy 1975–79, memb Nat Advsy Cncl for Motor Mfg Industry, Cncl, Cncl CBI 1967–74 and Warwick U 1968–74, NEDC Motor Manufacturing Industry 1968–73, UK Cncl World Wildlife Fund 1979 and Management Ct in 1967.2

Children of William Geoffrey Rootes, 2nd Baron Rootes and Marian Haytor

Hon. Sally Hayter Rootes2 b. 12 Sep 1947

Nicholas Geoffrey Rootes, 3rd Baron Rootes2 b. 12 Jul 1951

Citations

[s37] BP2003 volume 3, page 3389. See link for full details for this source. Hereinafter cited as. [s37]

[s37] BP2003. [s37]

Thank you!... How do I get a copy of this memoir you think?

[cros]

Alexi Sayle described the Hunter as Poxy. The Hunter wasn't especially poxy for a late 60's design, so because he has written bollocks I decided that the rest of his article was probably worthless as well

.

[saucedoctor]

"Who is that fat bastard?"

[Richard]

That Alexei Sayle article is full of the same kind of made up nonsense you get from pub experts.

 

Here is what The Motor Makers had to say about it. Click for bigger.

 

 

 

Even bigger https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7701/17185257207_69e2278781_k.jpgand https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7743/17390726052_5385083d67_k.jpg

[D Spares & Tyres]

I`m pretty sure it was that various manufacturers were told about the Shahs visit and intentions but only Rootes took him seriously and laid on a good welcome for him so he didn`t have that much choice!

[holbeck]

Spool back to 1964, and in the UK who else had a product suitable?

 

BMC had the 1800 or the Farina A60 or even the Riley 1.5..... Nope.

 

 

Triumph - the 2000. Hmm maybe, if a toughened up version could be engineered.

[Junkman]

I`m pretty sure it was that various manufacturers were told about the Shahs visit and intentions but only Rootes took him seriously and laid on a good welcome for him so he didn`t have that much choice!

 

This.

 

It's the only explanation that really makes sense. Car industry sense that is.

Plus: The Rootes Arrow is a darn good car! They are tough beasts that can sustain an unbelievably amount of abuse.

[D Spares & Tyres]

That blue one that won the world rally with the bedstead welded to the front backs that up!

[forddeliveryboy]

It's quite likely that as well as being treated promptly and with courtesy by TJ, the Iranians liked the look of the car - clean and simple lines, classically proportioned and so on. And that it didn't shout, "English design".

[colino]

Clearly it was a combination of government Ministers intervention and good luck.  Even brand new the tinny reverberations of the doors closing was a joke and they disintegrated in no time on UK roads:  All of the body panels flexed noticeably under even moderate thumb pressure.  Just as well the middle-east climate was kinder to car bodywork.

I remember seeing the Andy Cowan rally car at the (yearly?) factory open days.  It had as much in common with the Hunter as a Sherman tank.

[PaykanHunter]

That Alexei Sayle article is full of the same kind of made up nonsense you get from pub experts.

 

Here is what The Motor Makers had to say about it. Click for bigger.

 

 

 

Even bigger https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7701/17185257207_69e2278781_k.jpgand https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7743/17390726052_5385083d67_k.jpg

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS!!!!!......     

[cros]

Clearly it was a combination of government Ministers intervention and good luck.  Even brand new the tinny reverberations of the doors closing was a joke and they disintegrated in no time on UK roads:  All of the body panels flexed noticeably under even moderate thumb pressure.  Just as well the middle-east climate was kinder to car bodywork.

I remember seeing the Andy Cowan rally car at the (yearly?) factory open days.  It had as much in common with the Hunter as a Sherman tank.

Never having owned one I'm slightly surprised to read this. Was the Hunter worse than, say, the Cortina or Victor from the late '60's colino? I can't think of another similar competitor from that time- the Cambridge should have been at the end of its life had the 1800 been on target.

[colino]

I remember one of my dads mates buying a T reg Hunter Estate with his redundancy money at a heavy discount in 78-79.  Looked quite handsome in bright metallic red.  Wind on three years later and it was (around its first MOT) a rusty bone-shaker in need of welding and my Dads second hand Princess looked factory fresh and was built of metal, not fag paper.  Product cycles were much longer those days but the Hunters were inexplicable: the previous model old Minxes were sturdy, the later Avengers and Sunbeams the same, Hunters seemed to be an experiment in how little metal you could use on a car.

[Talbotman]

Late Irish built Chrysler Hunters cannot be compared to earlier coventry built Rootes models...they were literally thrown together with the cheapest possible materials. As a car their longevity was on par with most other makes and models of its era.

[HillmanImp]

I'm strictly Rootes, no pop no style. See me on the road I hear you call out to me, true you see mi inna pants and ting, see mi in a 'alter back, sey mi giv you a heart attack, gimme likkle bass, make me wine up me waist, uptown Top Ranking #

 

See mi in mi Impz and ting, drivin' wiv monte carlo springz, them check sey me come from coil spring, but a true dem no know and ting, dem no know sey we top ranking, uptown Top Ranking 

Shoulda see me and the ranking dread, check how we jamming and ting, love is all I bring inna me Hunter suit and ting, nah pop no style, a strictly roots, nah pop no style, a strictly rootes 

Watch how we chuck it and ting, inna we Hunter suit and ting, love is all I bring inna me Hunter suit and ting, nah pop no style, a strictly Rootes, nah pop no style, a strictly Rootes 

Love inna you heart dis a bawl out fe me, when you see me inna pants and ting, see me inna 'alter back, sey me gi' you heart attack, gimme likkle bass, make me wine up me waist, uptown Top Ranking 

See mi pon the road and hear you call out to me, true you see me in me pants and ting, see me inna 'alter back, sey me gi' you heart attack, gimme likkle bass, make me wine up me waist, gimme likkle bass, make me wine up me waist, love is all I bring inna me Hunter suit and ting, nah pop no style, a strictly Rootes, nah pop no style, a strictly Rootes 

You shoulda see me and the ranking dread, check how we jamming and ting, Love is all I bring inna me khaki suit and ting, nah pop no style, a strictly Rootes, nah pop no style, a strictly Rootes.

[PaykanHunter]

It's quite likely that as well as being treated promptly and with courtesy by TJ, the Iranians liked the look of the car - clean and simple lines, classically proportioned and so on. And that it didn't shout, "English design".

Thank you for keeping this thread alive!

 

I was told that inside IranNational (currently Iran Khodro) the Paykan contract was known as the Sunday contract, but sending telegraphs to all the British manufacturers for wanting to meet up on a Sunday in a Hotel in London. Meeeh... I can't really buy that.

 

Something doesn't add up here. it is true that entrepreneur Ahmad Khayami wasn't the best-educated man, but surely he knew that Sunday probably wasn't the best time to meet for such an important contract!  Also why he would give up on other manufacturers, I can't imagine that producing 7000 cars per year (just 7-8 years later in mid 70s Paykan production ramped up to 100,000 unit / year) must have been attractive to other manufacturers. 

 

And if this is true that they met in Nov 64, that is almost 2 years before Hunter production started in the UK, and 2.5 years before Paykan production started. At that time the Arrow series must have just had a design buy off, and was in early prototype / engineering development phase. How could Khayami trust Rootes to produce quality cars for them?

 

in October 1965 Shah visits UK and he also visits Rootes Coventry factory, I have some doubts as far as if Khayami as an entropenour was soley in charge of picking up the manufacturor, and there might be that Shah and his people dictated to Khayami to choose Rootes.  

 

One thing that could have played a major role was the Paykan price in Iran, it was offered back in 1967 somewhere between 14,000-17,000 Toman which was round 900GBP. Perhaps no other Brish manufacturer could match that and Rootes were expert in CKD. Also Paykan hit the Iranian market with Persian badges and there were NO mentioning of its British origin to go along with the Nationalistic theme that was happening in Iran back then. Who else would have agreed to that except Rootes in poor financial difficulties after the IMP fiasco? 

 

The Khayami brothers never spoke about why they chose Rootes, and Ahmad Khayami has passed and Mahmoud Khayami, the younger brother is in poor health at the moment residing in London, I really would love to know all the details about this historic contract, but odds of finding the truth diminishes every day, sadly. :/

[warren t claim]

I think a large bribe was offered.

[PaykanHunter]

I think a large bribe was offered.

I like that! But British Layland and others never made a fuss over this?...