Request for a teach-in on piston engine performance

[Asimo]

I think the "best" engine I've driven in terms of size, number of cylinders and smoothness is the 2L push rod Straight Six in my Triumph GT6.

 

Funnily enough, as I read this post I could hear a modded GT6 outside, belongs to a colleague called Mike! 

 

I need a straight six in my life, Volvo 960 maybe?

[forddeliveryboy]

 

Flat /  horizontally opposed engines

 

They're stronger, like for like (shorter crankshaft), so longer-lived, They are inherently balanced from a reciprocating mass pov so no counterweights or crank webs or extra shafts are required. This means a lighter reciprocating  rotating mass, so more responsive and keen to rev

 

Tatra engines are all V8s I think. 

One of the tragedies of motoring history is that the Citroen DS never got the flat-6 it was designed for.

Another one is that the Lancia Gamma flat-four was made of cheese and hope. But it was lovely when it worked.

 

I've owned 6 flat-four cars from four different makes and briefly driven an Alfasud and the one I would have again like a shot is the 1015cm³ Citroen.  (See http://www.citroenet.org.uk/passenger-cars/michelin/gs/flat-4/engine.html )

 

Time now for a flat-6 perhaps?

H6-3.0-Liter-DOCH6-Cylinder-Subaru-Boxer-Engine-2.jpg

 

Thanks for the correction Sorn, yes should have said rotating.

 

Tatra did make a flat twin which went into their T11, no idea what it was like though. Love the madness of a rear, air-cooled V8 though.

 

Interested about your love of the Citroen 1015 - in the GS it was a bit of a struggler on England's roads, and a bit of a forward-heavy lump for a 2cv chassis in the Ami Super (I think many a French teen impaled themselves in a tree when it failed to go round a bend at 80 which a 2cv would manage). I drove one which had a Dyane on a Super chassis - my mate had it for a while, we made Cambridge from York in under an hour and three-quarters, four-up. Didn't half annoy the fancy cars on the road who thought they were going quickly! I was amazed the engine had covered over 300,000 miles, having spoken to the guy who'd made it - he'd used the engine in the Super until the body would have it no more. It was as smooth and tight as a 60,000 miles affair, yet had never had anything done other than the oil leaks sorting and valves re-grinding.

 

Agree about the shame of lack of money/time for the DS - though it would have had to be 110% reliable otherwise people would have given up on the car. It's just possible that having a modified four which was bombproof and which everyone knew and trusted was no bad thing. Wish someone at the Conservatoire would get the flat sixes on display (or some hidden in a backroom) running and somehow put into a DS, it would be very, very interesting. I think the front axle lcoation could well be wrong, though, with the six inthe nose and box behind.

[Pete-M]

Possibly the smoothest engine I've experienced is the Jag 5.3 V12, but the Ford Triton V10 runs i tclose whilst appearing to have more sheer grunt.

 

440 Mopar lump is a cracking bit of kit for similar reasons. The effortless way that motor slings a couple of tons of Jensen down the road never gets boring.

 

I'm a V8 fan. Always have been. It's not logical but it's partly that the V8 sound track makes me grin.

 

I've had a couple of V12s and while they're seriously smooth and sound great they don't seem to have the effortlessness of a V8. V12s seem to come into their own at higher revs.

 

I like horizontally opposed engines too. Impreza Turbo engine is a lot smother than they sound. 911s sound thrashy while being smooth. Flat 12 in the 512 TR is an incredible bit of kit when wound up, if you get the opportunity to try one of those, do so.

[forddeliveryboy]

Note for pedants - most flat 12s aren't boxer engines, but 180 degree Vees. Why? Two pistons share a crank pin. Subtle difference, but wouldn't get so agitated as to turn one down. Jag V12s have been bargain of the dump for years now - nothing like 'em. Simple compared with most stuff under a bonnet today.

 

My mate had a 205 with the old suitcase engine, asked if it was a flat four, since it was on its side. "Fairly flat", I told him, which he accepted as an answer.

[Asimo]

Just learned that Tatra made a flat four, and now here is one for sale!

 

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C448758#

 

Nice picture of the chassis, the front suspension attached directly to the engine!

 

My 1015 Citroen was an Ami Super saloon but I don't recall it's understeer troubling me, maybe because I had had lots of understeer practice with an Audi 80 immediately before.

 

This pedant has always been irked by flat-12 Ferraris being referred to as Boxers. No one would want to make or to pay for a 12 throw crankshaft when a 6 throw crank gives perfect balance and even firing. Nothing to be gained and a great deal to be lost.

[Pete-M]

Tatra V8s are fun. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLUGSm6Th-Q

[Guest Breadvan72]

SETRIGHT!

 

For some time now I have been planing to start an Autoshite thread in which the game would be to write about shite in the persona of Setright, but it takes time and effort to write as he did.      Maybe I will finally get around to it this week, but don't let me stop anyone else trying first.  

 

My apologies, I apprehend that I ought properly to have indicated that my egregiously tardy initiation of this most worthy venture ought not by any peradventure to inhibit any person whomsoever who might be desirous of essaying this most commendable albeit challenging enterprise from embarking thereupon; always assuming, however, that any such person might conditionally be sufficiently moved, or, to use the vulgar tongue, arsed, so to do. 

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Setright didn't use 50 words where 5 would have sufficed. He just used different words, but was still efficient with them.

[Asimo]

Aaaah, the great NGK Sparkrite.

Much to be learned from reading Mr. Setright.

If the car world had listened to him we would all be driving Bristols or (proper) Citroens.

[twosmoke300]

Hope this hasnt been mentioned already but not all v engines have the same characteristics . 2 of my customers cars are a good example of this . One is a corvette v8 and sounds and revs like most v8s I've seen and driven . Lovely offbeat sound , loads of grunt but not a revver.

Then there is the tvr cerbera. Similar capacity but so so different. Sounds like 2 big bike engines and revs like one too. Sulky and awkward at low revs and really "comes on cam"

The difference is the crank design and firing order . One is a flat plane crank and the other a cross plane. I can't ever remember which is which but all I know is the tvr is the best engines I have ever heard and driven.

[Junkman]

There is no replacement for displacement.

 

 

http://www.cadillacperformanceparts.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=62

 

500 (yes, five-hundred) cubes of raw Cadillac power yielding a whopping 500 hp and 600 ft/lbs of torque.

This thing could propel the Chinese Wall, if need be.

 

Any questions?

[320touring]

There is no replacement for displacement.

 

 

http://www.cadillacperformanceparts.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=62

 

500 (yes, five-hundred) cubes of raw Cadillac power yielding a whopping 500 hp and 600 ft/lbs of torque.

This thing could propel the Chinese Wall, if need be.

 

Any questions?

big engines, you;re doing it wrong...

 

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/dcc-5155431/overview/

 

HTH:)

[320touring]

or the 6V92 is a tasty sounding derv

 

[forddeliveryboy]

Aaaah, the great NGK Sparkrite.

Much to be learned from reading Mr. Setright.

If the car world had listened to him we would all be driving Bristols or (proper) Citroens.

 

SETRIGHT!

 

For some time now I have been planing to start an Autoshite thread in which the game would be to write about shite in the persona of Setright, but it takes time and effort to write as he did.      Maybe I will finally get around to it this week, but don't let me stop anyone else trying first.  

 

My apologies, I apprehend that I ought properly to have indicated that my egregiously tardy initiation of this most worthy venture ought not by any peradventure to inhibit any person whomsoever who might be desirous of essaying this most commendable albeit challenging enterprise from embarking thereupon; always assuming, however, that any such person might conditionally be sufficiently moved, or, to use the vulgar tongue, arsed, so to do.

 

Nobody will be able to replace LJKS since his time is long gone, and with it the experiences and quality of education. But Junkman, to my mind, is both knowledgeable, witty and erudite. Even if he does have a (understandable) paranoia regarding CXs.

 

Setright didn't use 50 words where 5 would have sufficed. He just used different words, but was still efficient with them.

 

He denied being a Citroen nut -  but was a canny operator, for all his directness, and often spoke well of more cynically engineered metal and was both generous in his appreciation of anything which stood by its convictions as well as being beautifully scathing of utter crap. He liked his GTI Engineering adapted Scirocco (Mk1?) which was written off by someone else, then pretty much stuck with Ondas while admitting he just didn't have the money for Bristols ever since their values had escalated. He did admit he could see why people became obsessed with Citroens of the Michelin era, but vowed he was immune.

 

An Murr'can bikers board posted this at the top of a thread when they learned he had died -

 

"...It is time for a paradox; if it is to be admitted to be impossible to make

anything perfect, then does the elimination of almost anything bring a total

design nearer to perfection? The most beautifully detailed production engine

cannot be any Lamborghini or Ferrari, any Jaguar or Mercedes Benz, nor any

Porsche. Not even a motorcycle engine can rival the perfected simplicity of the

one I have in mind; at the furthest extreme from the elegant complexities of the

Honda CBX, the surviving few two-strokes which remain simple are all too far

from anything resembling perfection. No, there is in each of these too much

detail inviting criticism, and there are too many instances of lapsed logic.

Compared with any or all of these, the Citroen 2CV is a skeleton whose soul

shines through the bones."

 

Which says quite a lot about the bikers forum's magnanimity as well as Setright's lack of concern for popularism. Not many motoring journalists' deaths are headline news on the BBC. This piece alone alienated him from the chattering classes of motoring who thought they knew it all, a little like many voters couldn't stand Tony Benn or Maggie Thatcher. Truth is often hard to digest for those indoctrinated with years of false ideas.

 

He went on to justify his words about the Citroen flat twin very convincingly, even to someone who has never made good use of it. His intellect was impeccable, his story-telling almost as good. Like most personalities which stand out from the crowd of aspirant also-rans, he was self-taught. Like Einstein. His father had engineered and produced a famous ticket machine, the family had moved from Oz to the Home Counties with little LJK and bigger LJK went on to read Law successfully, but being bored stupid and irritated by the conceited twets engulfed in the discipline he explored his love of the motor vehicle. He played the clarinet at concert level and taught himself engineering; money wasn't his driving passion.

 

Even chief test drivers were amazed by his speed - some were petrified by it -  yet his only accident I remember is on a motorbike, braking on spilt diesel. His article in the early 80s surrounding his capture by the police while exceeding the speed limit was unique in its articulated venom, and well-justified. The speeding oinks had goaded him into going faster in a very subversive way - acting like this is illegal in law, yet when it came to motoring convictions, the law (for all its lack of justice but attempt to appear fair in most respects) gets away with it.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

That thing about him speeding sounds interesting FDB, any idea when/where that was published?

[Sloth in a bowl]

Gicen that my skoda has a 2l TSI motor I have been having a look at the tech in them and it is wacky in places to get a touch more fuel efficiency.

For 4 cylinders there are 8 injectors 4 in the air flow and 4 direct to cylinder. It never uses all 8 at the same time. For idle and full power the in cylinder injecters are used, for part throttle the air flow injectors are used. This allows lean burn to be used on part throttle and save on CO2 emissions.

In the US they don't get the lean burn injectors on their TSI motors as the fuel has more sulphur and the combination of high sulphur petrol and lean burn products kills catalytic converters.

 

Also if you look at the TSI range in VAG cars they make the same torque (258 ft lbs) but different power (217 to 276 hp). This is done by altering how high up the rev range VAG let it develop max torque from 4400 in my Octavia to 5300 in the hotest Golf.

How's that for badge engineering of different motors on the same production line. The only different one appears to be the Audo S3 that has a bigger turbo and intercooler but may be the same engine block and internals.

 

The effect for driving is that I have an engine that produces over 200 horses from just over 4000rpm up towards 6000rpm. A big flat power curve that makes the car quicker than the headline figures suggest. With 258 ft lbs of torque from 1500 to 4400 rpm it goes like a high speed diesel that never runs out of puff, odd but very good.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

That thing about him speeding sounds interesting FDB, any idea when/where that was published?

It wa definitely in Car,probably in his Frontline column. I seem to remember it was a plain Capri that got him,hence his accusations of 'agent provocateur ' behaviour. Incidentally the first time I'd come across this term as a spotty teenager .

I read Car every month from January 1976 when I was 11, I didn't understand most of what LJKS wrote and used to keep a dictionary handy when reading his articles. What an annoying little brat I must have been!

 

Edited to add : a bit of googling gives a reference to Best of Car pg71. But no more other than he was on his Dresda CBX,so could have been Handlbars.

[forddeliveryboy]

That thing about him speeding sounds interesting FDB, any idea when/where that was published?

 

Early to mid 80s, from memory. Possibly 82 or 83 - I was given a few free copies. It wasn't until late '85 that I started buying it religiously, it took some digesting for a teen. It soon became a must-have, so sad as it was dumbed down when TG mag started to make a dent in its sales.

 

Not only was Setright's police car unmarked, but they deliberately lured him into going more quickly. It annoyed him hugely, he was of a generation which assumed that policemen were naturally honest and abided by the law. From what I read, I get the impression people carefully avoid them, since the chances are they'll be (a lot) less than perfect.

[Junkman]

big engines, you;re doing it wrong...

 

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/dcc-5155431/overview/

 

HTH:)

 

OMG King Kong is in town.

[forddeliveryboy]

OMG King Kong is in town.

 

 

And this is his big sea-living relative, available in up to 14 cylinders.