**Resolved ** Any Sale of Goods Act Experts?

[gtd2000]

Well my mother finally got her 2004 KIA PIcanto back from the dealers last week - .....only took 6 weeks to sort the crankshaft pulley bolt problem out!

 

I'm wondering if anybody on here is a bit of an expert on the sale of goods act (or similar)?

 

Basically, I understand that other than a manfucaturers warranty, a product also has an expected "durability" and this will often exceed any warranty period.

 

As her car had only done 32k miles and the crankshaft pulley bolt failure is due to factory machining tolerance - can anybody advise me on the best tack to use this against KIA?

 

This is a known documented problem and I've slowly been gathering a list of affected folks as well

 

 

gtd2000 2004 1.1LX Auto @ 32,000 miles

 

Parts to be provided free by KIA but owner to pay the cost of repairs - KIA denied car was affected.

 

andy57

 

Year?? 1.1LX auto. 23000 miles.

 

Parts to be provided free by KIA but owner to pay the cost of repairs at £1500.

 

boy_racer996 (KIA Forums)

 

2004 1.1LX, 32,000 Miles

 

"I have made Kia very aware of my issue but they dont want to know. Kia also denied my car was effected" Repaired car himself with £23 worth of parts!!!

 

Bartbox (KIA Forums)

 

2006 LX 26000km.

 

"Kia are not interested in a goodwill claim even though the mileage is only 26000km.

 

I did my own repair but eventually after a scene with KIA Korea I finally managed to get this problem sorted on a goodwill repair. It a factory fault. Inaccurate machining of the front crankshaft timing sprocket and is assembled with too much play. Over time it wears both the crank and sprocket. The timing pick up then has too much play and confuses the ECU thus causing the misfire, poor performance and high fuel consumption. It can only be diagnosed by partially stripping and removing the front crank pulley. If the car has a misfire on acceleration you hear a dull rumble from the engine on idle I suggest you look for this problem"

 

Telstar (KIA Forums)

 

2005

 

"I contacted the local Kia dealer in the UK. The guy knew all about it. He said if a Kia main dealer diagnosed it as a bottom engine fault, he would have to say that, that is what it is. He checked my chassis number & he said it had not had a recall. He said Kia would only contribute to the problem if it had been serviced by Kia dealers & the contribution was to supply the crankshaft leaving the owner with a bill of around £1400-00. I was quoted €2000-00 over here so I guess it is with no Kia help. If it is a Kia problem that they fitted a wrong bolt & this is now down to me, it will be the last Kia I ever own."

 

"I sent an email & a letter to the MD of Kia UK & explained my problem. Bottom line as the car was now in Spain could they either supply me with the parts needed to repair it & I would pay a mechanic in Spain to do the labour, or can they contact the Spanish Kia on my behalf & ask if they would either repair the fault free or at least supply me with the parts again to get a mechanic to repair it. Here is the reply.

 

"Thank you for your email to Mr Michael Cole, our managing director. I am responding on behalf of Mr Cole.

I'm sorry to learn about the problems that you've had with your Kia Picanto.

We expect the highest level of quality and service throughout our brand. Unfortunately however, parts can fail at some point, which is why we support our customers with a warranty on all cars. Once the warranty for your car expires, we are no longer obliged to pay for any repairs.

We do support our customers wherever possible with the cost of repairs, as we want you to be happy with your car. Unfortunately we can only consider UK registered cars for a goodwill contribution. Therefore, if your car was first registered in Spain, I would advise you to contact Kia Motors Spain to see if they can consider your car for goodwill.

Thank you for contacting us and I hope this helps."

Yours sincerely

Vijay Ghera

Customer Service

 

Yeah! That helps!!!

 

Never will I ever buy a Kia car again.

 

Hope that helps."

 

Stablecat (KIA Forums)

 

 

04 Kia Picanto SE

 

 

“I just bought an 04 Kia Picanto SE. Had it for 3 days and realised it wasn't right. No power, difficult pulling away from lights & going up hill, jerky throttle. It went into a local garage under waranty (Car Care Plan through Motor House the garage I bought it from) and had the crankshaft bolt & damaged parts replaced. Now Drives great - but the garage says that it will happen again as there is nothing to stop the bold coming loose again. also they have said that when this fault occurs it creates wear on the crankshaft & next time if the wear is worse the crankshaft itself will need replacing and I will have a bill for around £2500?

They replaced the bolt in accordance with instructions and parts from Kia so are they right about this problem being likely to come back?â€Â

 

 

 

“Thanks, my car is now in with Kia & they have confirmed that the faulty bolt caused wear to the crankshaft itself so the new improved bolt is not stable and the only cure is a new crankshaft - fortunately it looks like it is covered on my waranty from MotorHouse.

 

 

 

The bolt replacement itself has not been enough to permanently rectify the problem but Kia say it would have been enough if the bolt had been replaced before the problems occured. That's fine, but they did not recall the car here (UK) - just a service campaign for inspection and replacement if affected. My car (SE Model) was not included in the campaign, so it was never checked. â€Â

 

 

 

Daab (KIA Forums)

 

 

2 years ago Picanto's were recalled for a modification on the crankshaft. The crankshaft bolt on my Picanto was replaced by a longer as well. Nonetheless the crankshaft broke january 2008, just after guarantee. KIA first tried to let me pay for almost the whole job. Now they use "coulance": still remains 965 euro for me to pay.

This crankshaft problem occurs a lot in Holland, and I found 11 pages of crankshaft ""Kurbelwelle"" misery on the German KIA site.

 

 

Last week a guy in Holland posted: In his family alone, 2 out of the 3 Picanto's had broken crankshafts. A friends' broke as well. 1 just after guarantee: 'KIA "coulance" : 1.000 euro left to pay.

 

 

On the KIA Forums site I found a successful erniedaisy who needed assistance from a lawyer, but got - rigtheously- finally a free repair.

 

 

Dutch consumer TV "VARA/KASSA" has noticed the frequency of this problem and KIA's attitude. The problem will be discussed on TV shortly.

 

 

Flanagc6 (KIA Forums)

 

 

“Hi - My 2005 Picanto just cut out today due to...(surprise, surprise) a broken crankshaft. I have a FSH including a service at start of Feb which never identified any problems. As I am out of warranty does anyone know if I have any rights from Kia for help with the repair costs??â€Â

 

 

 

Lauragoodwin (KIA Forums)

 

 

2005 @ 2500 miles

 

 

“I have a 05 car and have just been told the crank shaft has broken ( £3000) I have only done 2200 miles, but have only had 2 services. I am going to fight that there is NO WAY this should be happening. I never got news of a recall. Does anyone know when it was recalled and how to find out which set were thought to be faulty?â€Â

 

 

 

Motorama (KIA Forums)

 

 

33,000 miles

 

 

“Me too!! I have a 33000 mile Picanto two weeks out of an annual service prior to which we reported a lack of power. The result was that no faults were found and that we should monitor situation. After the service symptoms became severe and car was returned. Now we are informed that 'it's a broken crankshaft.' Which would cost us £900!! What aroused my suspicions was that the receptionist asked whether we had ever recieved a 'recall' and then promptly dropped the subject. Discovery of this webpage confirms suspicions. At present we await a reply from Kia via agents in Cornwall.

Results to be posted on this site for benefit of all.â€Â

 

 

 

Bemused of Dudley (KIA Forums)

 

 

“I had this same problem of lack of power caused by a defective crankcase bolt and I was quoted a price of around £2000 by my local KIA agent for repairs. They appeared all too aware of the problem. I moaned to the agents and also contacted KIA customer services. In fairness to KIA they have paid for their agents to install a new short engine (whatever that is) and this appears to have resolved the problem. I had to do without the car for one week but I am fairly happy with the outcome. It probably helped that I bought my Picanto from the local KIA agents and had had it serviced there a couple of times. However I would suggest that anyone owning a Picanto who encounters this problem takes up their problem with KIA customer services.â€Â

 

 

 

LaurenceN (KIA Forums)

 

 

“My daughter's car has now suffered from the same problem as all you guys. We have had the car serviced every year since buying it in 2004 and have never heard a word about the problem - certainly no product recall, not even a mention from the Kia dealer who serviced it. Kia are now being totally unhelpful about the cost of fixing it, and I foresee a long battle ahead, which I am determined to win, especially as the problem surfaced when my daughter was some 250 miles from home and we have now additionally had to suffer recovery costs. I hope this won't come to a court case, but just in case it does, I would be interested to hear from anyone else who has lost out financially: please contact me at [email protected] and I will keep you updated about progress.â€Â

 

I've got a rather long letter drafted already but this may well be a key point in the arguement?

[alf892]

Wow....

 

So, based on the info in those forums, it looks like the lower pulley/spocket is too loose fit on the crank and over time it chatters and eventually breaks the bolt. There are two levels of fix depending on how badly the crank is chattered - new bolt (and sprocket??) or new crank, bolt and sprocket.

 

So before you attack KIa you need to know which repair you have had.....as it mentions in one of those forum posts if it has had just a sprocket when really needed a crank then the repair will be more temporary.

 

Then a short letter pointing out it is their problem and they should fix/pay. Give a timeline and a final warning if they don't respond and then small claims court. Don't get caught up in a lengthy debate.

[alf892]

oh.......and autoshite fix

 

new pulley and bolt........centre punch the crank loads......reassemble with loctite bearing fit (not on bolt obv)

 

no warranty given or implied

[Negative Creep]

Quite frankly I think you'd struggle on a 7 year old item

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Quite frankly I think you'd struggle on a 7 year old item

 

Normally that would be the case. But here it's nothing to do with bits wearing out, it's a well-documented design problem.

 

If I were you, and assuming threatening letters got you nowhere, I would file a claim with moneyclaimonline. The procedure is painless and the fees are very reasonable.

[Guest]

Trading Standards themselves may have a case history on this particular issue?

Hate to say it but Watchdog? Then we can see the fit bird leaning over and pointing out the crank pulley and mentioning nuts and flanges.

Lordy my trousers have caught fire!

Hey I might just by one of them cars just for that!

[red5]

There was a rework issued to affected vehicles at the time. The thing to do initially is check to see if the rework (no. escapes me at the mo) has been carried out. Will check and see if I have any old paperwork regarding it - can't remember if it was a service action only or escalated into a recall.

 

Sam

[Pillock]

7 years is within "expected lifetime" of a car - however this is down to the opinion of everyone involved, there is no master list of how long every type of product should last. You might say it is, the garage will probably say it's not.... what you need is to somehow prove that 7 years is within the lifetime of the product. I'd firstly look towards the fact they now offer a 7 year warranty for all new Kias registered after 2010 - this is the company pretty much saying that they expect their cars to last at least that long. If they claim that this doesn't affect your pre-2010 model then point out that a) you're not claiming under warranty, merely determining the acceptable life of a car and are they claiming that their manufacturing processes were substandard prior to 2010?

 

So, the Sale of Goods act pretty much says that a product has to last the expected lifetime of that type of product. It should remain free from faults which can be attributable to the design or manufacture of that product assuming it has been used correctly. It is down to the manufacturer or retailer to prove that any faults are NOT down to an inherent defect, it is NOT down to you to prove that they are - this was a fundamental change to the SoGA a couple of years ago. They cannot charge you for providing an inspection, they must supply you with a copy of the report, and they must act in an unbiased manner. You are also free to get a third party report instead of, or as well as, but there may be a charge for this.

 

If the conclusion is that there was an inherent defect, the product must then be repaired in an acceptable timeframe without charge, or replaced, or refunded. If refunded, they might make a depreciated refund which is a percentage of original cost based on age.

 

So, I would write a letter - take your time, make points but don't be too OTT with the threats and stuff. You have to get them on your side, after all. Ask for figures on the number of similar failures to prove inherency of the defect, and suggest that the age of the car falls within acceptable bounds to have an expectation of reliability given that they offer a similar length warranty on new cars. State you are happy to have them provide an UNBIASED inspection. What you're trying to do is make it clear, without specifically saying so, that you know your beans and the cheaper and easier option for them will be to repair or refund rather than spend man hours fighting you. Obviously this could all end up in court as at some point you may need to go through with a threat to take legal action.

 

I do SoGA inspections for notebook PCs and stuff..... it's quite odd since although my company pays me to do them, probably about 50% of the time I conclude in favour of the customer and we pay out.

[gtd2000]

Wow....

 

So, based on the info in those forums, it looks like the lower pulley/spocket is too loose fit on the crank and over time it chatters and eventually breaks the bolt. There are two levels of fix depending on how badly the crank is chattered - new bolt (and sprocket??) or new crank, bolt and sprocket.

 

So before you attack KIa you need to know which repair you have had.....as it mentions in one of those forum posts if it has had just a sprocket when really needed a crank then the repair will be more temporary.

 

Then a short letter pointing out it is their problem and they should fix/pay. Give a timeline and a final warning if they don't respond and then small claims court. Don't get caught up in a lengthy debate.

 

In our case the complete crankshaft was replaced requiring a full bottom end rebuild - the recommended KIA repair is simply to fit a new short motor - but for some reason this option wasn't used - the dealer informed me of this.

 

We have been very fortunate in that the total cost for the repairs was only around £660 - most people have been charged far more - this lower cost may be due to KIA authorising the strip down to verify the problem existed.

[gtd2000]

oh.......and autoshite fix

 

new pulley and bolt........centre punch the crank loads......reassemble with loctite bearing fit (not on bolt obv)

 

no warranty given or implied

 

That was going to be my option if there was a repair quote for £2000...at least one chap fixed his faulty crank with a simple cheap fix.

[gtd2000]

Quite frankly I think you'd struggle on a 7 year old item

 

Normally that would be the case. But here it's nothing to do with bits wearing out, it's a well-documented design problem.

 

If I were you, and assuming threatening letters got you nowhere, I would file a claim with moneyclaimonline. The procedure is painless and the fees are very reasonable.

 

I'd like to have as many options as possible and I'll certainly look into this

[gtd2000]

Trading Standards themselves may have a case history on this particular issue?

Hate to say it but Watchdog? Then we can see the fit bird leaning over and pointing out the crank pulley and mentioning nuts and flanges.

Lordy my trousers have caught fire!

Hey I might just by one of them cars just for that!

 

There's more than a few disgruntled customers looking into that option - my own feeling is that it's a KIA design fault and they should simply sort the problem out. I'm happy to contact Watchdog of course too

[gtd2000]

Quite frankly I think you'd struggle on a 7 year old item

 

If this wasn't a known design error I'd be inclined to agree with you - however, given the fact that it's a problem KIA are very aware of and it's certainly not normal to expect an engine to fail at such a low mileage in normal conditions I beg to differ.

[gtd2000]

There was a rework issued to affected vehicles at the time. The thing to do initially is check to see if the rework (no. escapes me at the mo) has been carried out. Will check and see if I have any old paperwork regarding it - can't remember if it was a service action only or escalated into a recall.

 

Sam

 

This is the sad part...I contacted the supplying dealer as well as a local dealer back in 2008 to ask about the recall - they call it a campaign.

 

Our car was not affected or included in the recall.

 

Same thing when I took it to the local dealer and they checked the car over and diagnosed the problem as worn spark plugs..

 

The rest is history...

 

It took something like 6 attempts to get the problem verified and in that time, I'm sure further damage was caused to the end of the crankshaft.

 

Be great if you had some info on the actual recall/rework though

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

By making SIX attempts to sort it, they have been given more than a fair chance to fix the problem and indirectly recognised that the problem is theirs and not yours- the judge should come to the obvious conclusion that the 'man on the street' wouldn't have had six goes at something out of pure goodwill and/or a passion for exceeding customer expectations.

 

Small claims court is the way to go.

[gtd2000]

By making SIX attempts to sort it, they have been given more than a fair chance to fix the problem and indirectly recognised that the problem is theirs and not yours- the judge should come to the obvious conclusion that the 'man on the street' wouldn't have had six goes at something out of pure goodwill and/or a passion for exceeding customer expectations.

 

Small claims court is the way to go.

 

The real problem lies with KIA advising dealers that only a select range of 2004 chassis numbers were affected by the problem - this position has now been revised as it has affected cars from all years.

 

In most cases the customers knew more about the problem than the dealers - the two I originally contacted in 2008 didn't know anything about it and nothing showed in the system.

 

Then you compound the problem with a known factory defect and you can understand the frustration.

 

One point that KIA stressed to me in the early days was that this was a potential goodwill repair - of course in the initial stages it was all sweetness and light - UNTIL the problem was verified - then it changed to potential goodwill repair but they were not obliged to pay for labour costs, although this might be paid for if the car was fully dealer serviced.

[scooters]

I would send the whole sorry episode as well as the quotes from the forums to variousl motring mags - Car Mechanic, Car, What Car etc and also to Honest John who will include them in the 'What's Bad' part of the buyers guide.

 

fucking crooks - Mother just had a Picasso clutch FAIL at 18000 miles - not her driving style either - since looking into this I have discovered Picasso clutches failing after anything from 12-28000 miles - pisspoor - car is 4 years old and Shitroen have tried to make out that it is an 'old' car so what does she expect. Foolishly she took it to the Citroen Main Stealer rather than the chap I told her to take it to - they ended up charging her £1600 for the clutch and a '3 year service' - no they didn't change the timing belt or brake discs or water pump - I dropped her off to collect the car and the smart arse mechanic told me I should 'speak tae the sales guys as they would gie me a deal on ma awd car' - I replied coldly:

'when PSA start making cars as god as this one I might possibly consider it but for the time being I don't think so'

 

to be fair he did nod

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

'when PSA start making cars as god as this one I might possibly consider it but for the time being I don't think so'

 

to be fair he did nod

 

But to which car were you referring?

[gtd2000]

By making SIX attempts to sort it, they have been given more than a fair chance to fix the problem and indirectly recognised that the problem is theirs and not yours- the judge should come to the obvious conclusion that the 'man on the street' wouldn't have had six goes at something out of pure goodwill and/or a passion for exceeding customer expectations.

 

Small claims court is the way to go.

 

It wasn't actually 6 attempts for KIA UK to diagnose/fix the problem but it took at least 6 steps for the problem to be finally verified by KIA as follows, here's an extract from the draft:

 

My mother is a pensioner in her 70’s and has not had the use of her vehicle for 6 weeks, had she actually listened to the advice from KIA and the KIA dealer and continued to drive her mere 32,000 mile car, the likelihood is that she would now own a KIA product with catastrophic engine failure, this is simply unacceptable.

 

In summary, here is a timeline of the KIA failures:

 

1. 2008 Contacted Fisken KIA

No knowledge of problem – SP54 XXX not affected by recall. (incorrect)

 

2. 2008 Contacted Ken Hope KIA

No knowledge of problem. (incorrect)

 

3. 2011 (Sept) Contacted KIA Customer Service

Advised to take car to local dealer for inspection. (correct)

 

4. 2011 (Sept) Belmont KIA

Car inspected. Car not affected by crankshaft pulley bolt. (incorrect)

 

5. 2011 (Sept) Contacted KIA Customer Service

Advised that car was not affected. (incorrect)

 

6. 2011 (Sept) Belmont KIA

Car inspected again. Car confirmed as affected by crankshaft pulley bolt failure.

[fiatdaft]

Try and see what kinda deal they could do you on an 09 magentis?

[gtd2000]

Try and see what kinda deal they could do you on an 09 magentis?

 

LOL

[gtd2000]

OK here's my first draft of the closing part of the letter.

 

In my estimation, it is completely unacceptable that my mother should be responsible for any cost of repairs. The cause of the problem was a KIA manufacturing defect and enquiries were made regarding the known problem without success. Had the car been looked at by a blanket inspection then the bolt could have been replaced before any damage was incurred and very little cost incurred.

 

Seven years/32,000 miles are certainly well within the expected lifetime of a car, the fact that KIA (UK) now provides a 7 year/100,000 mile warranty for their products would support this expectation. KIA (USA) provide a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty to support the expected longevity of their products.

 

I am not attempting to claim under any implied warranty for our vehicle, I am simply trying to ascertain the acceptable life for an earlier KIA product. As our KIA Picanto is pre-2010, please determine the acceptable life of this car and if it is a period less than 7 years, are KIA (UK) stating that their manufacturing processes were substandard prior to 2010?

 

The Sale of Goods Act records that goods have to last the expected lifetime for that type of product. It should remain free from faults which can be attributable to the design or manufacture of that product assuming it has been used correctly.

 

It is down to the manufacturer or retailer to prove that any faults are NOT down to an inherent defect. As verified by your own agent (Belmont KIA – Selkirk) the cause of the problem with our vehicle was Crankshaft Pulley Bolt failure.

 

In this scenario, it was known inherent manufacturing defect that caused the problem and as such, the remedy under the Sale of Goods Act is that the product must then be repaired in an acceptable timeframe without charge, or replaced, or refunded.

 

I trust that you will review this case objectively and will now consider refunding the charges for the repairs that my mother has paid.

 

Should you not be able to reconcile this problem to our satisfaction, please provide the following information by return:

 

1. List containing the number of KIA models affected by this known problem.

2. Contact details for KIA (Korea)

 

 

 

Regards

[scooters]

'when PSA start making cars as god as this one I might possibly consider it but for the time being I don't think so'

 

to be fair he did nod

 

But to which car were you referring?

 

Lol the bx.....

 

Not the picasso! Although I did ge t my revenge at the weekend by driving the scoob onto their forecourt and have it jizz oil all over their fake red carpet!

[gtd2000]

Hmm the plot thickens - seems other have been trying to find a resolution to the crankshaft pulley bolt fiasco as well and they don't even bother to reply...

 

It should, but it doesn't seem to. I sent a registered letter, marked 'private & personal' to the MD in UK (this was the second letter) & neither were answered. I have contacted Consumer direct & acted on their advice but so far nothing. We need publicity. Make people think twice about buying a Kia car until they do the right thing. My Korean friend has given me this information.The MD of Kia in S. Korea is Lee, Hyungun. The overall president of Kia & Hyundai is Jung, Mong-Gu. The address is,

Hyundai Motor Company Building.

Seocho-Gu,

Seoul

S. Korea.

 

I am also going to find out the name of the S. Korea president & write to him, to try to shame them about his country's car manufacturers attitude to a manufacturing fault.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Your letter isn't threatening enough. More specifically:

 

i) Your mum is the potential claimant. The name and signature need to be hers. Putting yourself into the equation will only serve to pointlessly complicate the matter and gives them an opportunity to divert attention away from the issues at hand. If you need to refer to what has been said between you and the dealer etc, just refer to yourself in the third person.

 

ii) When you're threatening someone with legal action, it always helps to quote the pertinent text from the statute (and/or applicable case law). Lets them know that you've done your research, you know your stuff and you're prepared to fight. Unlike the good old days, virtually every piece of legislation (and quite a few bits of case law) are available on the internetz.

 

iii) Make sure to threaten them with specific action. "If you don't commit to giving me a good part exchange on a 2009 Magentis within the next 14 days, I will be DOUBLING the number of angry customers protesting outside your offices".

 

iv) Don't forget to let them know that you will be contacting trading standards, BBC, TUV, NASA and so on.

[gtd2000]

Your letter isn't threatening enough. More specifically:

 

i) Your mum is the potential claimant. The name and signature need to be hers. Putting yourself into the equation will only serve to pointlessly complicate the matter and gives them an opportunity to divert attention away from the issues at hand. If you need to refer to what has been said between you and the dealer etc, just refer to yourself in the third person.

 

ii) When you're threatening someone with legal action, it always helps to quote the pertinent text from the statute (and/or applicable case law). Lets them know that you've done your research, you know your stuff and you're prepared to fight. Unlike the good old days, virtually every piece of legislation (and quite a few bits of case law) are available on the internetz.

 

iii) Make sure to threaten them with specific action. "If you don't commit to giving me a good part exchange on a 2009 Magentis within the next 14 days, I will be DOUBLING the number of angry customers protesting outside your offices".

 

iv) Don't forget to let them know that you will be contacting trading standards, BBC, TUV, NASA and so on.

 

Oh that's just the closing part (in first draft form) ...it's a bit of an essay actually!

 

If you've got an email address I can send you the whole script - I wish to retain movie and broadway rights of course!

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Why don't you send it in a PM?

[gtd2000]

Why don't you send it in a PM?

 

I'll give that a go when I log on to my other pc then

 

There's a fair bit of waffle but I'm trying to set the scene you see....

[gtd2000]

The pm has been sent.

 

I've been doing further reading on the SOGA and it might be an idea to add a semi-veiled threat of claiming for consequential loss if they do not agree to refunding the repair charges.

 

It turns out that in Scotland you have 5 years (upon discovery of the problem) to make a claim - so that gives me quite a bit of time to get this sorted out!

 

I was also thinking that KIA probably spend millions per yer on advertising their products and may also suggest that the cost of removing any negative feedback via myself and others is a drop in the ocean by contrast.

 

I've now also got the name and contact details for KIA Korea - I'll get them to confirm those details in closing the letter.

 

The ironic part is that I still consider that KIA products are pretty decent - it's just the fucking way this has been handled that grips me.

 

They'd have a class action lawsuit on their hands in the USA by now.....

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

I 'll have a good look at it tonight or tomorrow and see if there's any other suggestion I can make.