Final 405 woes, fed up etc

[carlo]

Well, got a local garage to agree to put the cylinder head back on my old 405 which has been hanging around headless since November, as my mechanic friend who took it off in the first place was unable to complete the job through poor health. With my usual blind optimism I assumed everything would be fine; unfortunately it's been a week since they finished assembling it and as yet have been unable to start the thing due to very low compression. Synopsis seems to be it's probably a piston ring problem, possibly rusting or seized, and exacerbated no doubt by spending all winter in the damp with the block exposed (although there was a blanket on top of it.) Really cheesed of about this, everyone seems to be telling me what I should or shouldn't have done after relieving me of the money!

 

Don't suppose anyone has any bright ideas? They've apparently tried all they can including squirting oil into the bores but have now given up, plus being an automatic they can't tow the car up to some sort of speed to get the cylinders moving (?) Looks like I'm going to have to scrap it having covered about 20 miles and spent nearly a grand on the thing. Certainly won't be replacing a head gasket over a six month period again anyhow.

 

And now I've been offered another 405 which looks much better than this, and the whole cycle could start again. Can any psychco-analysts cure me of this crazy obsession of finding the perfect Peugeot 405?? Have bought three since my lovely green one and none have been as good.

 

[Mr_Bo11ox]

oh dear what a nightmare.

 

With these things its always difficult cos you end up questioning what the garage says, it seems unlikely that something could happen to the piston rings that would wipe out compression to the extent that the thing can't start itself if everything else is OK.

 

Whereabouts in the world are you?

 

Sorry, I see now - Plymouth. Bugger!

[carlo]

In Plymouth!

 

They also said all 4 cylinders were showing low compression which I thought was a bit odd.

[Albert Ross]

Strikes me that it's timed up wrong.

[boobydoo]

Hmmm...I know the feeling. When your old motors play up its right disheartening. I can't be arsed driving any of mine at the moment.

[warren t claim]

In Plymouth!

 

They also said all 4 cylinders were showing low compression which I thought was a bit odd.

 

Is it not worth lobbing in some piston seal?

 

Surely a scrappy engine wont cost too much?

[carlo]

Strikes me that it's timed up wrong.

 

Would that affect its compression? (I'm no mechanic!)

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Low comp on all 4 cylinders does sound potentially fishy, but I suppose they are reasembling a car they did not take apart, so its difficult to pin owt on anyone. I also wonder about the timing. It was running OK before wasn't it, but overheating, is that right?

[carlo]

Low comp on all 4 cylinders does sound potentially fishy, but I suppose they are reasembling a car they did not take apart, so its difficult to pin owt on anyone. I also wonder about the timing. It was running OK before wasn't it, but overheating, is that right?

 

It wasn't overheating, but was belching out clouds of white smoke and took a while to start, took a while before all 4 cylinders picked up. Funnily enough mechanic friend was a bit suspicious 'cos the gasket didn't look too damaged and they only skimmed 12 thou off of the head.

[Pillock]

My guess would be timing. If the valves are still open as it's on the compression stroke, you'll get bugger all compression. If the valves are just slightly open I guess you'd get "low" compression.

Trouble is, if you go into a garage and start questioning what they've done they could get arsey with you, want shot of the car and you're back to square one. Could drop it into conversation I guess....

[Albert Ross]

Right.. Auto, so assuming petrol, therefore if the cam is retarded by incorrect timing up (belt replaced hopefully) it won't build up enough compression because there will be a valve open at the wrong place in the sequence. (For each cylinder). But they won't hit pistons because of the recess in the cylinder head. Ergo, get the timing belt setting checked before spunking any more cash on it. Ask the garage to prove to you that it is timed up correctly. Obviously, if there is a crank sensor, and a cam sensor, they will be out of phase, and for that reason, it may not fire due to ignition and fuel injection issues, caused by this very fault. If diesel, the valves may have bent due to interference.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I appreciate the beauty of a really nice 405 so i'm feeling your pain BTW.

[carlo]

Right.. Auto, so assuming petrol, therefore if the cam is retarded by incorrect timing up (belt replaced hopefully) it won't build up enough compression because there will be a valve open at the wrong place in the sequence. (For each cylinder). But they won't hit pistons because of the recess in the cylinder head. Ergo, get the timing belt setting checked before spunking any more cash on it. Ask the garage to prove to you that it is timed up correctly. Obviously, if there is a crank sensor, and a cam sensor, they will be out of phase, and for that reason, it may not fire due to ignition and fuel injection issues, caused by this very fault. If diesel, the valves may have bent due to interference.

 

It is a petrol and they replaced just the timing belt, everything else was 'apparently OK'. Perhaps I need to diplomatically bring this up..

[Andrew353w]

I only offer this advice as I've just done a cam belt on a Mondeo; obviously this didn't mean taking the head off but when I'd put it all back together (correctly timed) the engine had very low compression and I thought I'd made a terrible mistake somewhere.... I hadn't, and I quickly worked out what was wrong and it's POSSIBLE your car has the same problem, so try this & see if it rings a bell....

 

To get the bottom pulley off the main crank I did the traditional mechanic's trick of wedging a spanner on it I giving the starter a flick, to get undone. I'd already taken the plugs out so the engine just span for a few seconds to loosen the pulley nut, BUT as the ignition was on for a little longer, the fuel pump was pumping and I remembered a strong smell of petrol after this part of the operation. When I'd finished everything (put the plugs back & re-connected the H.T. leads) and it wouldn't start, I remembered the fuel smell and did the following to start the car; push the throttle and the clutch to the floor & THEN start the car. Once the engine catches, release the throttle and let the engine warm normally. The non-starting was caused by the petrol that had been pumped into the cylinders and not being burnt normally washing the cylinder walls of oil, thus reducing the compression. Once the spark ignited the fuel, the heat generated "pinged" the rings just enough to allow the engine to build compression again. After a few minutes it all settles down again & all's well (but it was smokey for a few minutes!)

 

Sorry this is so long and I'm even more sorry if it doesn't help, but it DID happen to me and it might just help. I hope you get it sorted somehow!

[carlo]

Beautiful, fell in love:

 

 

Bit ropey, felt abused:

 

 

Low mileage but poor suspension, suspect it had been in a prang:

 

 

Dead on arrival:

 

 

After this episode can't decide whether to buy another red one, even though I have driven it and it feels nice. Think I'm jinxed, plus they are getting on a bit now.

Thanks for all the advice by the way, presume your advice wouldn't work as it's an auto andrew?

[Richard]

Does your engine have hydraulic tappets? It can take forever for them to settle after they've been disturbed.

[carlo]

Does your engine have hydraulic tappets? It can take forever for them to settle after they've been disturbed.

 

Not sure about that, it's the 1998 petrol 8v engine used in lts of PSA cars.

 

Actually I've got to thank all you guys, this forum has inspired me to have an idea (I was about to scrap it). I think I'll get one other garage for a second opinion and see if they canget it started, shouldn't cost too much. If that's a no-go then it's good bye time.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

that seems terrible to scrap it after all that bother. Even I dont think i could absorb the cost of fetching it from Plymouth though.

[Albert Ross]

XUJ engines are bucket and shim. Also, the cam should NOT have been removed to do this job. I wonder if the spacer has been put back on the single headbolt above the water pump jacket, to prevent it cracking the block? Is it the same head that came off?

[carlo]

XUJ engines are bucket and shim. Also, the cam should NOT have been removed to do this job. I wonder if the spacer has been put back on the single headbolt above the water pump jacket, to prevent it cracking the block? Is it the same head that came off?

 

Same head

[Station]

Do yourself a favour and get a working engine and weigh the old one in. It's slightly more work, but bollocks to diagnosing the multitudes of problems a dodgy engine will put forward.

[CreepingJesus]

Sounds a lot like the results of the time I changed the cambelt on a neighbour's Yugo, and left it one tooth out. Careless, and stupid of me, but easily rectified, with no lasting harm.

At least you've got a parts car there, if you've got somewhere to store it. As you say, they're starting to get thin on the ground, especially the autos.