Anyone aware of a decent Brian James tilt bed for sale?

[Mally]

I'm on £35 tyres, genuine for the job, don't last long though. Just bought new wheel and tyre £89.

The rims don't like tarmac much.

[PiperCub]

Brian James was the original guitarist in The Damned.  But not this one I suppose.

 

You must be the same era as me then as that's exactly what I think every time I see 'Brian James Trailers' 

[overrun]

Woah! I forgot I had made this thread. Cheers for all of the replies and ideas etc.

I'm going to view a couple of 16x6' BJT tilt beds on Thursday.

[Faker]

Unless your planning on using it for business use, I'd go for a bj clubman or a Woodford. Great all round transporter and available with single axle, more suitable for towing behind light commercial. What are you towing and how often? Most large twin axle transporters are at least 2ton gross. Issues then arise when you consider the towing vehicle and it's capabilities (train weight) I used to have a bj autotrailer tilt bed. Bloody massive thing but an awesome trailer. At the time I was using a swb smiley transit, then a lwb hiace. I sold the lot when I found out that neither the tranny or the hiace could legally tow the trailer due to weight, whether loaded or unloaded (tranny had 1ton and hiace 1.5ton train weight. Unladen the trailer was 700kg, but had a gross of 2700kg, maybe more.... just like driving license categories, it's the potential weight that the trailer can carry that gets people in trouble. Large mass trailers require a large 4x4 or twin wheel van as tow vehicles to stay legal.

[DodgeRover]

I'm pretty sure either Brian James or Ifor Williams have a letter from VOSA stating in black and white their rules are trailer weight at the time of the stop that counts not max allowable trailer weight.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

That sounds interesting, any more info about that?

[Faker]

It's a bit like this example. If you have a cat b license, you can drive a light commercial up to 3.5ton. A Mitsubishi Canter flat bed lorry has an unladen weight of 3ton. Even when empty.... a cat b driver can't drive it, it's cat c1 up to 7.5ton. It's basically the same thought process for tow car and trailer, it's based on (mam) maximum allowed mass for both vehicles. Also with unbraked trailers, max gross weight of 750. But that goes out the window if the tow car is an aygo or micra. Max unbraked weight for them is about half the kerb weight of the towing vehicle - about half a ton.

[Faker]

License holders with no E category. E category is not required so long as mam of tow vehicle and mam of trailer combined do not exceed 3.5ton. EG. Passat unladen 1.5ton but mam of 2.3ton. Add to that a caravan with a mam of 1.1ton, you get a combined mam of 3.4ton. Under 3.5ton so no e category required. All based on maximun limits.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

^^^^ I'm struggling to understand that lot, but I know that if you are towing a trailer that is rated to carry a weight that will put the 'rig' beyond your car's towing capacity, you are likely to get bummed by VOSA even if the trailer is empty. That's always seemed like total lunacy to me, you are punished for a supposed 'crime' that hasn't yet been committed. If some trailer company has taken VOSA to task about that I would love to read about it.

[Faker]

Ifor Williams in the faq section state that you can tow a trailer that has a mam greater than the tow vehicle permits, so long as the actual trailer and payload falls within the limits. This is incorrect, and I believe it's their interpretation of the legislation. As I've posted above in the example for non E category holders it's the mam (or potential mam) that dictates what you can tow.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

 This is incorrect, and I believe it's their interpretation of the legislation. As I've posted above in the example for non E category holders it's the mam (or potential mam) that dictates what you can tow.

 

Right, that's the nub of it - you say its incorrect, but you have to admit it is a more logical position which I think VOSA would struggle to argue down in any other situation than at the side of a dual carriageway when they are reading you the riot act. If Ifor Williams or anyone else has discussed this point with VOSA I would love to read about it.

[Faker]

I'll do a bit of research for you. I don't see the issue with towing an empty car transporter behind say a golf or passat. I suppose they're stuck and need a cover all legislation with no loop holes or get outs.

[dave21478]

Years ago I got actually bummed for the old large but empty trailer towed by a light vehicle thing when towing an empty flatbed behind a C15. 

I had heard that the law changed very recently (within the last year, maybe?) and what the trailer could carry ie its plated goss weight, is no longer counted.... its the weight of what you actually have there and then that is counted. Typically, I cant find anything to back this up.

[warninglight]

Would also be very interested in a bit of clarification on that issue, having just sold my Disco TD5 (3500kg tow limit) for an old XC90 (2250kg tow limit) whilst using it to tow my 3500kg beavertail...

[Faker]

Years ago I got actually bummed for the old large but empty trailer towed by a light vehicle thing when towing an empty flatbed behind a C15. 

I had heard that the law changed very recently (within the last year, maybe?) and what the trailer could carry ie its plated goss weight, is no longer counted.... its the weight of what you actually have there and then that is counted. Typically, I cant find anything to back this up.

New one on me. I'll dig but no matter what the tow vehicle still needs to be fit for the job.

[scruff]

You are right Dave, we touched on this on my CPC course.

 

VOSA as was, were checking the MAM of trailers and fining anyone with a trailer plated for a higher rate than the tow vehicle. Basically making it up to rake cash in.

 

When you think about it, it's a nonsense, HGVs regularly tow trailers plated higher than units so why would/should cars be different?

 

Someone refused an on the spot fine, stuck with it and it went to court, they won easily.

 

I've just emailed DVSA asking what's right, I'll post the answer if/when it comes.

 

The problem is VOSA/DVSA are utterly shambolic at times and one officer will give you a different answer to another.

I got pulled on M6 northbound last month in my artic and was escorted to the checkpoint (clean sheet). In the office they have on the wall a pinned up sheet with an official Jaguar Land Rover letterhead giving the towing weights for all Land Rover products. As some of you will know, what an old Series LR can legally tow is a bit of a grey area and a sure-fire way to liven up any forum. So I asked the question, and the official just pointed to the sheet and said "they come under that heading, so it's 3500kg". So there you are, if you want to tow full weight with your old Landy stick to the M6.

[Captain Furious]

I'd be interested in the reply too because I faced this exact dilemma when a friend of mine wanted a car trailoring back from Scotland, even though the car was pretty light, basically a part finished beetle restoration, nearly all car trailers had MAM of over 2 tonnes which put them beyond my cars towing limit (I have a cat b+e licence) even though what I'd actually be carrying would be far less

 

In the end he didn't buy it so it wasn't a problem, but trying to find a definitive answer online is a minefield. The wording on the dvla/dvsa/vosa/whatever they're called now seems to suggest it's the MAM that counts. Problem is that even if it is the actual weight and not plated weight, are all the police and vosa foot soldiers going to see it that way, or are they going to seize the outfit and make you argue the toss later

 

Towing entitlements are so needlessly fricken complicated.

[Faker]

Just off the phone with vosa dvsa enforcement. Anyone without an e category must not exceed the mams under any circumstances, immediate prosecution. Trailers are taken by each individual case now. As in if you are towing a trailer that has a mam more than the tow vehicle, it will be weighed on a bridge. If the trailer with payload exceeds the train weight, you're in bother! Private cars pulling large trailers while empty can still fall foul though. Again each one taken individually (small car towing large trailer in excess of 80% kerb weight of tow vehicle.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

That's fair enough innit. If you exceed the towing capacity of your vehicle then they have a fair reason to give you some grief. But it sounds like they do actually feel obliged to weigh your rig first before declaring it overweight, which is a step forward from what was the case. I'd loved to have been a fly on the courtroom wall when someone challenged the previous VOSA position as it was clearly bollocks.

[Captain Furious]

I thought the 80% kerb weight rule was just advisory if you have B+e?

[oldcars]

It all seems complicated, must be an easier way?

[overrun]

It all seems complicated, must be an easier way?

 

Buy a beaver tail. But not one with a steel bed, as that puts you over and also makes it almost pointless!

[overrun]

I plan to tow it with my Mondeo. It can tow 1800kg (should have bought the estate...). The trailers are itro 700kg, so it gives me about a tonne to play with, train weight.

 

As for all the rest, being bollocked on the MAM of the trailer even when empty etc, I would also take that to court.

I do plan to do my trailer licence at some stage, mind.

 

It seems to be the newer driving licences (2013>) where you aren't allowed to tow more than 750kg and need a B+E for anything over that.

 

Cheers as ever, this is turning into a quite an interesting thread, as this shit is always clear as mud!

[Faker]

I plan to tow it with my Mondeo. It can tow 1800kg (should have bought the estate...). The trailers are itro 700kg, so it gives me about a tonne to play with, train weight.

 

As for all the rest, being bollocked on the MAM of the trailer even when empty etc, I would also take that to court.

I do plan to do my trailer licence at some stage, mind.

 

It seems to be the newer driving licences (2013>) where you aren't allowed to tow more than 750kg and need a B+E for anything over that.

 

Cheers as ever, this is turning into a quite an interesting thread, as this shit is always clear as mud!

You don't fit the criteria bro. You're restricted to the maximum allowed mass of your vehicle added the the maximum allowed mass of the trailer. If the combination totals 3.5ton you're in bother. Regardless of whether the actual combination is actually lower than 3.5ton on a weigh bridge. That has been guaranteed and confirmed by dvsa (vosa).

 

Those with e category are permitted to exceed 3.5, but vehicles and weights are examined individually.

[Mally]

I thought the 80% kerb weight rule was just advisory if you have B+e?

 

It is only advisory. You can go equal without problem and over with some vehicles depending on MAM, Train Weight and God knows what.

 

Faker has everything pretty much correct.

B licence covers up to 3,500kg vehicle, or vehicle plus trailer both at MAM. It is possible to tow a laden car trailer with a B licence but its very difficult to keep within the weight limits.

Over 3.500kg you need B +E . Covers up to 7000kg,.................I think?

If VOSA say you are wrong, unless you have a lot of cash, you are wrong.

[overrun]

I appreciate what you are saying Faker but (for now at least) the DVLA Towing and Licence Requirements say:

 

Car (Category B )

Zero additional towing entitlements

Passed test before January 2013

You can tow trailers up to 750kg MAM

You can also tow larger trailers if the combined MAM isn't more than 3500kg

 

So going by the information they currently provide online, as long as my car and loaded trailer don't exceed 3500kg in total, or I don't exceed 1800kg with the combined weight of what I am towing I should be alright.

 

I know there is potentially more to it, but that is what I am going to go off (and always have done).

[Faker]

Not intending to cause issue or upset anyone. Just trying to help. You are free to do what you wish, until it goes wrong bro.

[Captain Furious]

See, even with the definitive answer from the dvsa themselves, it's still complicated!

[Faker]

Also. If a vehicle visually looks over weight, and forces exerted on the tow vehicle are not as per factory limits (ie ball hitch loading exceeded) and axle weights are measured and found to be compromised or exceeded, a prosecution can still be brought, even if the 3.5ton limit isn't crossed. Really means towing with cars is ropey.

[Faker]

Mondeo tdci gross vehicle weight is 2.3ton. That gives you a permitted trailer weight of 1.2ton to stay within the law. Not kerb weight (1.5ton) plus trailer.

 

Direct quote from previous post added. Mam of combined vehicles. Ie gross vehicle weight of two vehicle and maximum allowed mass for trailer.