Down to my last used Jonny. Only the Anglia 105E left.

[forddeliveryboy]

So why isn't it MoT'd yet????????

 

Aye, Le Mans is only 3 weeks off and will obv take a day longer in the Ami... 

[jonny69]

So why isn't it MoT'd yet????????

 

I'm still ironing out some bugs. The front exhaust joint has got the wrong clamp on it so it's blowing a lot and the new manifold I put on isn't actually welded together. I need to weld that up. And there's a couple of blown bulbs and I threw away all my 6V bulbs a long time ago. It's got GS seats in there as well, which don't have anywhere to bolt down at the front, so I also need to find a temporary fix for that before the MOT. The original Ami bench is too knackered to use without some repairs. I'll switch that back in later on when I've fixed it. And I need to make a battery tray because Hairy Dave had a bit of chipboard kitchen cabinet in there.

 

I've got too many projects on at the moment, basically. Too thinly spread!

[jonny69]

I was originally planning to spend a couple of hours this weekend doing the last few things but I got distracted, taking a perfectly reliable engine out my Anglia and screwing silly things to it instead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quick video of the fire-up: https://www.facebook.com/ChrisFrosinPhotography/videos/vb.511810788845973/1319040881456289/

 

Pics and vid courtesy of the unstoppably enthusiastic Chris Frosin.

[dollywobbler]

Ace. He does rather spark with enthusiasm. Top bloke. Now get that Ami sorted!

[jonny69]

Yes boss

[seth]

Nice work Mr 69.  Don't blow it up!

[jonny69]

Glad I posted this as a refresher to remember what I still need to do:

 

The front exhaust joint has got the wrong clamp on it so it's blowing a lot and the new manifold I put on isn't actually welded together. I need to weld that up. And there's a couple of blown bulbs and I threw away all my 6V bulbs a long time ago. It's got GS seats in there as well, which don't have anywhere to bolt down at the front, so I also need to find a temporary fix for that before the MOT. The original Ami bench is too knackered to use without some repairs. I'll switch that back in later on when I've fixed it. And I need to make a battery tray because Hairy Dave had a bit of chipboard kitchen cabinet in there.

 

So.

 

-Front exhaust joint still needs dealing with.

-New manifold still needs welding.

-Bulbs just ordered.

-Securing the GS seats should be possible with some panel fixings as a temporary bodge.

-Battery tray cut and ready to fit from some leftover gash at work.

 

Except because I'm a scientist, the only leftover gash I could find is the worlds most advanced carbon fibre composite from 1982. It's got Kevlar in the sandwich and is stab-proof. Everyone needs a stab-proof battery tray, right?

 

[jonny69]

Battery tray done and fitted. Manifold welded.

 

Now, this exhaust clamp:

 

 

 

It's a bit crap and doesn't actually cover both parts of the flanges. I'm guessing the original was a slightly chunkier cast clamp or something. Any suggestions?

[Bfg]

.. looks as if your pipe has been replaced for bigger bore stainless pipe, and the original end flange has been retained / welded on as a reducer.  ie. the flange is probably original pipe size.  So, I would simply buy another clamp off a 2cv specialist (perhaps even s/h), clean it up,  apply lots of copper slip around the outside of the flanges and inside of clamp, and tighten it up with a little exhaust paste on the flange's mating face.  

 

The photo (below) shows two of my own car's exhaust clamps ..   The flat-4 cylinder Ami-super has underslung exhaust manifolds - so is different to your own exhaust layout, but the clamps are similar.  These connections generally are very reliable, and even allow a little flexing - but of course the clamp has to be the right size, which your aftermarket piece isn't.

[jonny69]

Cool, I'll see if I can find another one of those. That is what is up at the manifold end. If I get lucky, the one I just took off my Anglia might fit, but I think it's quite a bit bigger.

[forddeliveryboy]

Yours is marked 49mm, which is for the manifold joints, not the crossbox to 'swan neck' one which needs to be 47mm. Like this: http://www.ecas2cvparts.co.uk/clamp-exhaust-47mm-complete-crossbox-interpipe-2cv6-p-976.html?WSid=ef3ff98fb368602448bba1a6f2cb5c21

 

Using s/h is a no-brainer since they stretch and pinch when tightened up, especially with the quality of modern stuff. Which is why even a bigger clamp like the one you're trying to use is a sod to grab both ends of flanged pipe, once well used.

[jonny69]

Nice one FDB, thanks. That 47mm, I take it that refers to the outer diameter of the flange, rather than the diameter of the pipe. The pipe is way smaller than that, lol.

 

Edit: I see the 49 you're referring to. I didn't notice that before.

[forddeliveryboy]

Pipe is 32mm, I think. So yes. Everything is different with old Cits, one reason the garage trade hated them. The other is that they couldn't figure how they worked. The more you investigate, the more injuries you sustain the more intriguing they get, if you enjoy a good engineering mystery. Until one day, voila! - understood, if you can't help yourself persisting. Then everything else seems arse-about-face.

[Bfg]

"Using s/h is a no-brainer since they stretch and pinch when tightened up, especially with the quality of modern stuff. Which is why even a bigger clamp like the one you're trying to use is a sod to grab both ends of flanged pipe, once well used."  In my experience the old cast types don't stretch so using a s/h one of the original type is fine, and in fact imo preferable to using a new one made of pressed metal.

[forddeliveryboy]

"Using s/h is a no-brainer since they stretch and pinch when tightened up, especially with the quality of modern stuff. Which is why even a bigger clamp like the one you're trying to use is a sod to grab both ends of flanged pipe, once well used."  In my experience the old cast types don't stretch so using a s/h one of the original type is fine, and in fact imo preferable to using a new one made of pressed metal.

 

Those used by Citroen throughout the 80s did eventually stretch and pinch, fwiw. It's the solid type which can be reused again and again, like Burton supply. http://www.ecas2cvparts.co.uk/clamp-exhaust-47mm-burton-high-quality-cast-steel-complete-crossbox-interpipe-2cv6-notes-p-1487.html

[jonny69]

I've got a slightly better quality-looking pressed one to get me out of trouble. I'll get one of those Burton ones when I next put an order in at ECAS because they charge quite a lot for postage and it comes in at more than the actual clamp did.

[forddeliveryboy]

Clean the carbon off the exhaust, load up the inside of the clamp with assembly paste and tighten it well. There's a lot of force on that joint as the engine and box move on their mountings. Front mounts are well worth checking as excess movement will soon pop an exhaust joint or at best strain the system and cause the swan neck to torpedo silencer joint to rot and then shear prematurely.

 

I've strapped those front mountings up with wire before, the replacement quality is poor.

[jonny69]

The top one seems to be fine so I think it probably is clamp-related. It was a new front section in the exhaust so hopefully should nip up ok otherwise.

 

If it's any consolation, that type of joint is just as bad on the manifold to downpipe on old Fords. They blow the exhaust paste out eventually and then rattle loose.

[dollywobbler]

I personally only use a smidgen of copper grease on the mating surfaces. In an ideal world, you'd free off the next clamp along (swan neck to torpedo) so you can rotate the swan neck to align it properly. If they've been clamped together for longer than about five minutes though, you'll find they just weld themselves together.

[forddeliveryboy]

The top one seems to be fine so I think it probably is clamp-related. It was a new front section in the exhaust so hopefully should nip up ok otherwise.

 

If it's any consolation, that type of joint is just as bad on the manifold to downpipe on old Fords. They blow the exhaust paste out eventually and then rattle loose.

 

It's the engine's rocking couple which pulls on the front mounts and destroys them, then breaks the exhaust joints. The joints should last as long as an exhaust if the crossbox is bolted to the gearbox properly and the engine mounts are good. It takes a bit of practice to tighten the clamps sufficiently enough that they can't work loose but not distort to the extent you can't use them a second time (the cheapest ones today, that is - the pressed steel ones used to be reusable several times). 

 

 

I personally only use a smidgen of copper grease on the mating surfaces. In an ideal world, you'd free off the next clamp along (swan neck to torpedo) so you can rotate the swan neck to align it properly. If they've been clamped together for longer than about five minutes though, you'll find they just weld themselves together.

 

Use insulting tape and copaslip and they don't. But I haven't managed to do without paste (reliably) on the X-box joints (reliably) since the company fitted top qual. zorsts back in the 70s. I only ever saw two, both had lasted almost 20 years - mild steel, too - no alu-dipped tech. Theoretically it should be possible 100% of the time even with the lousy-fitting things they sell today, but if you want a perfectly gas-tight and reliable, time-after-time, I do find paste more reliable.

 

Wouldn't recommend the solid-type Burton clamps, they may make it easier for a novice to use brute force to seal a joint, but there are some X-boxes which they struggle with, on account of alignment and/or flange size. Plus they can crush the manifold casting if you're not careful, apparently. £50 for a set is taking the piss. It seems triple the price of anything 2cv and the enthusiasts come back for more and more. Shame, I say - typical of the way parts prices have gone through the roof for these cars, while qual has gone the other way. Buy a rotten Dyane and scavenge every last fitting off it, if you're hell-bent on running an A-series everyday.

 

This vid is stretching reality so far it's mis-representative, I could easily make one which showed the opposite to be true, working in the real world with a complete crossbox, manifold, h/brake mech etc. £50. Tssh. That's what an entire exhaust cost not so very long ago.

 

[forddeliveryboy]

As usual it's der Franzose who have the best stuff for these cars, at a good price too. I'd choose one of these anyday over the tenner-a-go things.

 

http://www.franzoesische-klassiker-shop.de/epages/63117739.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/63117739/Products/A3015

 

 

 

 

Unless something's changed in the last couple of years, they're a heavier gauge than this sort of thing

 

 

 

These were the best solution for ease of use, but pricey - https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pp-2cv.be%2FFR%2FNews%2FCollierEchappement.htm&edit-text=&act=url

 

 

I think google translate has mistranslated - should say 'these are no longer available'

[seth]

I have now inspected this car in person and can cofirm that it is most excellent. Good luck with the MOT Mr 69!

[jonny69]

 

Had to post this Dollywobbler video because 1) it's ace and 2) it made me laugh when he went on about the heater controls around 3:35. So Seth was sitting in the driver's seat...

 

"What do those two knobs do?"

 

"They're heater controls"

 

"Well what do these two do then, lol?"

 

"Ah, well they're also heater controls."

 

*points at two more on the dash, now looking confused*

 

"Yeah, they're also heater controls..."

 

And there's the other one in the middle, too.

[Bfg]

/\ /\    ha ha..  I'm go'na win that one..  (yesterday /ebay) I bought the answer book for my 'rare' Ami ..en Anglais. 0ooweh !

It'll cost you a black gob stopper and a ride on ya bike to have a peek

 

 

Sod it.., I bought the wrong book, my steering wheels on tuther side !?

 

 

p.s.  That Ami 6 looks great..  oh how I'd love to own a house in a posh neighbourhood and to drive around in that !   ...around here nobody would bat an eyelid

[jonny69]

I live in Surrey where everyone is convinced they're posh. Old cars really annoy them

 

Ok, Ami MOT is booked on Monday. Sort of forced because, on cue, the Anglia engine has expired during running in despite me nursing this one really carefully. I mean really fucking paranoid levels of carefully this time. That's three in a row now and I'm getting really pissed off with shitty machining from engine places now.

 

Brushing that aside, I did the exhaust joints on the Ami. I noticed when I separated the front joint that the middle one was waggling all over the place and was bodged up with exhaust bandage. I automatically assumed it would be rotten through with the bandage hiding something, but it turned out to be a slight mismatch in the pipe size. I made up a little sleeve with exhaust paste and a couple of winds of fibreglass tape to take up the gap and clamped it back together and it shouldn't bother me again. Front joint also sealed up and the clamp is a much better fit than the old one:

 

 

I also started to re-fit the rubber seals. These fit in a crimped edge around the seams of the door openings. They need the crimped bit opening up a bit and the rubber is quite stiff, so they are actually quite hard work. You sort of wriggle a little bit in at a time, hold it in place with one hand and crimp the seam back closed with the other hand. I've been putting off doing it until after the MOT but I've got the knack now:

 

 

So the engine is now nice and quiet, not choking me to death and it's just the bulbs and front seat fastenings to deal with over the weekend.

[jonny69]

Just about to leave for the MOT. Gassed up, insured, tools packed, breakdown cover and bag of warm clothes...

 

I put the original seats back in despite them being shagged. Everything else seems to be working fine except the fuel gauge. Damn it feels weird to drive!

[Bfg]

Wishing you all the best Jonny.. 

 

weird yes.. to enjoy a small Shitroen you've got to live with it ..only then can you (some of us ? )  start to appreciate the fun side of their quirkiness and the fact that it does the job extraordinarily well (at least in comparison to it's contemporaries of the era).  Then the looks grow on you.. like an rather ugly grandchild which is your own !    in time you realise that its personality and character are more fun to be around than almost any other..  and so other cars in the driveway are used just occasionally. 

 

That happy acceptance does take time, and a just a little perseverance though !    

[jonny69]

 

Oh yeah, you've got to jack it up quite high to get the wheels off the ground. MOT man said he was scared at this point

 

It's a pass!

 

 

So the question is do I take the silly old car to work tomorrow or the silly old car. Decisions decisions

 

 

We were talking about budget motoring. No depreciation, £0 tax and £55.91 insurance, fully comp with commuting added to my Anglia's policy.

[dollywobbler]

Excellent. It's been a long time coming for you! Congrats.

[jonny69]

So that was 86 miles covered yesterday and 15 on the way to work. What do I think? Mini review.

Well, TLDR, it's agricultural.

It feels very odd to drive - firstly because it's left-hand drive and secondly because the gear shift takes a LOT of getting used to. It's a big black knob that sticks out the dash that you can slide in and out and twist left and right, lol. The gear layout is basically upside down and not in an H pattern. Think capital H laid down flat in italic. First gear is pulled all the way out the dash with the knob twisted to the left, second and third in the middle at the front and back, fourth gear is pushed furthest in to the dash over to the right. It's that. I've driven dog-leg first gear boxes quite a lot and I find this one confusing! Seems to have synchromesh on all four gears but it gets very crunchy once the oil is hot. I'm hoping it might just need a top-up.

The engine makes it feel like you're driving a ride-on lawnmower. It sounds like one and acceleration is similar. 25hp on tap, so that shouldn't be surprising. The curious thing is it can get up to speed on the motorway. It has long legs and, although the engine has very little torque, it revs right up with little fuss. The speed drops right off on uphill sections but, on the flat, it'll sit at well over 70.

Steering and suspension are as hilarious as Citroen legend suggests. Ground clearance is huge and, as you can see in the picture in the previous post, you have to lift the car nearly a foot to get a wheel off the ground. There is no play in the steering whatsoever. I'm used to small English Fords with steering boxes and a bit of play is inevitable. I can't call the steering sharp or precise, however. Turning the wheel from lock to lock with the car static moves the front of the car about 6" side to side, maybe a bit more. When parking the car or slow speed manoeuvring, this translates into some slightly strange characteristics that make the front of the car move where you weren't expecting it to go. You have to be careful when you're very close to something because turning the wheel to steer the car away from something actually physically pulls the car closer to it.

In ALL cornering the car leans right over. As the driver you don't really notice this, even when it's leaning right over on a roundabout, and SWMBO didn't complain too much either - which was most strange. Up at speed, the suspension soaks up quite a lot of steering input. It almost feels like the car is going to plough on, but it's just where the suspension is taking up the body roll. Steering therefore needs to be done in advance and fast changes in direction are basically out of the question. When pressed for it, it understeers and cannot be coerced into oversteer, though I haven't tried pushing it into a bend under hard braking yet.

Straight line ride quality is uncharacteristically smooth for a 1960s car, especially one this small and light. Bumps in the road, pot holes and rough surfaces are just soaked up and disappear and this is impressive. Speed bumps can be taken without slowing down. In braking the car stays flat and doesn't dive, which is a design feature of the Citroen suspension. Motorway cruising is therefore smooth and comfortable.

Overall it's quite an involved drive. You can't just sit in the seat and operate the controls like you can with any small British car from that era or the generation before. Round town it needs a lot of input with the gears and steering. Same on the lanes. Motorway you need to think what you're doing and anticipate what's coming up because your speed fluctuates quite a lot. I don't mind the speed fluctuation because the alternative is a gear that will hold you at a particular speed and then you're stuck with a top speed of 60mph.

So to sum up: It's a bit weird to drive. Controls take a bit of getting used to. Steering is a bit strange but I'll get used to it. Suspension is nice and soft. Motorway speeds are good. Would I buy one in 1965? No, I'd probably buy anything else. Would I buy one now? Yeah, probably.