NorthernMonkey Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 As some of you no doubt remember a couple of weeks ago, I bought a delightful old 300CE from RichardK of this parish...well, collection took place the following afternoon and I was accompanied on the journey by my better half. Upon arrival, Rich enquired jokingly whether we were interested in a second Merc, a rather nice looking W210 with gearbox issues, before showing us around his collection. After leaving us in the yard playing about with the coupe whilst he went to dig out the keys he returned to see my better half sat in the E320, a smile upon her face...After a brief man-maths session on the way home, emails were sent...fast forward a little and here we are again, fuelling up the truck, packing the turkey sandwiches and preparing to leave for Lutterworth! The phone is fully charged this time and arrival should hopefully be in the daylight so pictures will follow in due course... DeeJay, Sigmund Fraud, Six-cylinder and 9 others 12
The Reverend Bluejeans Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Respect. I did peruse the Benzo and briefly considered a manuel conversion before CBA kicked in , yo.
mrbenn Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Brilliant! Will look forward to this with interest
dome Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 W210s are excellent cars. I need to make an effort to sell mine in the new year.I look forward to seeing how you get on with that one.
NorthernMonkey Posted December 28, 2015 Author Posted December 28, 2015 Hmm, me too! LolI'm actually looking forward to getting my teeth into it...what's attracted me in the first place is the fact it's got relatively low mileage and plenty of good history including gearbox work 30k odd miles ago so I really don't think it's going to be too big an issue but even allowing a worst case scenario of throwing another box in, it will still be a cheap enough car that'll hopefully replace the Volvo as a daily, that one having done almost 300k miles and showing its age in several potentially expensive ways
NorthernMonkey Posted December 28, 2015 Author Posted December 28, 2015 Anyway, still at Sandbach as the M6 is particularly crap today...eta now around 16.00 (in the dark...)Please God, can I buy a runner next time so I can enjoy a nice relaxing train ride?
NorthernMonkey Posted December 28, 2015 Author Posted December 28, 2015 Quick update: Just got back...car can stay where it is for tonight, dinner awaits. In the meantime, here's a little taster... How's that for a giffer mod? For chrissake, screwing the fuckers to all four corners has caused more bloody damage then just rubbing up against the wall everyday?!? Best get some base coat mixed up....haha strangeangel 1
Bear Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 Thing is, once I reconnected them, the parking sensors worked most of the time!
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Rightio, down to business. Having completed the intensive 'teach yourself automatic gearbox reconditioning' by browsing YouTube for a couple of hours, it's time to put my newly found knowledge into practise. Yesterday, I got the car up in the air and had a nosy around the pin bush connector thingy that always gives trouble and that Richard replaced already. Imagine my surprise to find the bloody thing full of fluid again! First thoughts were that the conductor plate had cracked or something preventing a satisfactory seal, so time to get some bits ordered and start pulling it to bits. £42 later, a new Mahle filter, sump gasket and four litres of Febi MB spec fluid turn up in a little white van. So far, so good. Next job was draining the old atf... Hmm. That's seen better days. Anyway, sump off next which reveals a nice amount of sludgy old oil in the bottom which slightly worryingly has an almost golden tint in places... Much more and it would suggest bits of the copper bearings in suspension, however I'm probably just being paranoid as under the office light it doesn't look too bad and the sludge that was on the sump pan magnet has no coppery bits. Finally for the moment, time to remove the valve block to get to the conductor plate for inspection... Going to leave that to drain now for a bit and fit an alternator to a Fabia that someone's just dropped off. More later..... Sigmund Fraud, andrew e, Coprolalia and 3 others 6
The Reverend Bluejeans Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 It's surprising how easily some can be fixed. The 6 speed ZF was designed so that automatic gearbox reconditioners could suck thru teeth and say 'it needs a £2200 rebuild mate' when really it needed 2 hours work and a £7 rubber gasket between the valve block and gearbox casing to effect a complete cure. Good luck. Lacquer Peel, andrew e, chaseracer and 1 other 4
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Fabia now charging at 14.2v and back with its owner who lives behind the workshop. Always a good idea to keep the neighbours happy....Got the valve block out and everything looks ok there...the conductor plate has no visible cracks or anything so I thought I'd open up the transmission control unit and check for fluid ingress at that end of the loom....dry as a bone!I can only imagine the fluid in the socket is what was trapped in the wiring and has drained back into the new socket that Richard fitted. Going to call it a night as I've run out of switch cleaner and I want to go over all the contacts before rebuilding it. One very interesting discovery though...thought I'd measure the fluid that drained out before sticking it in the waste oil drum. Now, I was under the impression that the total capacity of these boxes is somewhere between six and seven litres but a fair bit remains in the torque converter and usually needs approx 3.75 litres for a sump refill. I got over 7 litres out through the drain plug!! Unless I'm very much mistaken, that means there was nearer 10 litres of manky ATF in there!? I'm going to make a dipstick in the morning out of some curtain wire (80p from the local hardware store...sod paying £8.50 on eBay) but if my sums are wrong, I'm going to need some more bottles of expensive red oily stuff... Bren, mrbenn, Sigmund Fraud and 4 others 7
Bear Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 10 litres?! Fuck. I wonder if it was overfilled all along and it just took time? I only replaced what I drained out, which is why I wondered if I'd been shy refilling. I'd laugh, miserably, if that fluid drained back caused the problem to not go away and that's all it was. I did leave it 48 hours hanging low. Glad the ECU was dry though, the connector probably did do the job for the seal. You'll see it has a bill for replacement of that - I couldn't read the date code but the undisturbed shield screw made me suspicious.
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 I would never dare to take that gearbox to pieces, good on ya ... I frown at curtain wire dipstick though, seriously pay the £8.50 Meh, it'll be fine. The dipstick is only a length of curtain wire with a plastic handle welded on.
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 10 litres?! Fuck. I wonder if it was overfilled all along and it just took time? I only replaced what I drained out, which is why I wondered if I'd been shy refilling. I'd laugh, miserably, if that fluid drained back caused the problem to not go away and that's all it was. I did leave it 48 hours hanging low. Glad the ECU was dry though, the connector probably did do the job for the seal. You'll see it has a bill for replacement of that - I couldn't read the date code but the undisturbed shield screw made me suspicious.Mustard mitt, it doesn't make much sense how that much came out unless the torque converter is drained too but it can't be realistically. Going to make a dipstick up then throw it all back together and put 3.5 litres back in and see what happens.It'd make sense if it was somehow overfilled as when it gets going, the excess ATF would froth up and compress in the oil galleries in the valve block causing implausible shifts which is what the code was? Time will tell...only thing I need to get now is the MB1 connector for the Solus so I can clear any codes left over. CGSB 1
djimbob Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Epic bravery involved in fooling around with gearboxes, so much effort if it's not right after all the palaver, cap doffed in your general direction Sir NorthernMonkey 1
Felly Magic Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Good luck with this mate NorthernMonkey 1
billyboy406v6 Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Would imagine too much fluid is just as bad as not enough, also thought Merc auto box never need servicing ?
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Epic bravery involved in fooling around with gearboxes, so much effort if it's not right after all the palaver, cap doffed in your general direction Sir Generally speaking, I'd agree with you but the design of these is that the level of strip down you can see here took approx. 30 minutes! Admittedly it's a lot easier with the car six foot up in the air but even so, these old Benzes are such a pleasure to work on. A five year old Fiesta or Clio will have fixings rusted solid that shear as soon as you look at them with a comically raised eyebrow but even the 25 year old coupe just comes apart so well, they are actually enjoyable to work on. Would imagine too much fluid is just as bad as not enough, also thought Merc auto box never need servicing ?They don't, they work beautifully until the day they stop working.....
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Is it a hot fill or a cold fill? Also is it one that you have to fill while running in P like the Omega was?Neglect of any of those issues could lead to overfilling I guess?The idea is you fill approximately then start and get up to temperature (80 degrees) before checking the level at the dealers/with the factory approved dipstick/with 80p worth of curtain wire marked with a sharpie (delete as appropriate)There is a cold level on the dipstick (if it had one) to get an idea but it's only a rough guide....it needs to be hot to measure accurately. Thing is, it takes some doing to get the fluid up to 80 degrees which is why I think it's ended up being overfilled in the past.
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Oh yes, nearly forgot...whilst letting the ATF drain, I thought I'd try cleaning the foggy headlights up a bit. Left hand side before... Right hand side before... Rub down with 120 grit followed by 500 grit on the da, 2000 wet polish and some G3 compound on the buffer then sealing with Autoglym SRP Not perfect but a lot better. Might have another go before I start painting the bumpers next week (assuming the gearbox works, obv.) Vince70, mrbenn, Bear and 3 others 6
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 The arches aren't bad...I've seen a lot worse. Because the mileage is pretty low for its age and the spec is pretty good, it seems to be worth throwing a bit of TLC at. The plan is to get the gearbox sorted then put it into service as the daily replacing the markedly tired Volvo (ironically five years newer but 2.5 times the mileage) whilst tidying the bodywork bit by bit between paying jobs, restoring the coupe and turning the ratty old T4 into something resembling a camper since I've just received an email telling me we've got a camper van permit for carfest north in July (not sure if anyone on here will be interested in a build thread on that one but I'm happy to do one if so?)
NorthernMonkey Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Build Freds are good Only need telling once! Lol This is more or less how it looks at the minute... It's going to be a week or two before work gets started in earnest. Whilst we're at it, don't suppose anyone's got an early (92-96) drivers door for one of these, colour unimportant? Vince70 1
Bear Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Headlights were the victim of a product test hence the varying levels of shine! Don't forget to grease that sunroof, it sounded a little sticky From memory the 722.6 SHOULD throw a code if fluid gets too high, and the float should put it into limp home mode. And I did 2.000 miles in it before the gearbox flakeout, obviously without adding fluid. If you don't have starscan or equivalent, you can use an Ir thermometer on the sump then check the table for temp/dipstick level.
steve_earwig Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 I would never dare to take that gearbox to pieces, good on ya ... I frown at curtain wire dipstick though, seriously pay the £8.50 I certainly wood, especially if I had a car lift. The 'box is borked so there are two possible outcomes - either it'll fix it or the 'box is still borked, what's to loose? The alternatives are either $$bumrape$$ at a gearbox specialist, lob a good one in from a scapper or, failing that, break it. At least this way there's a chance it'll be fixed for a lot less time and money. I, too, balk at the curtain wire dipstick, how do you know when the level is right? If it was 85 quid then I'd chance it but 8.50? It'd certainly take the mystery out of it, especially the cold fill level. Anyway, good luck to you sir! mouseflakes 1
Bear Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 The dipstick Mercedes sell is a curtain wire. Okay, there's a black plastic bit on with markings, but it's probably less accurate than curtain wire. Remember when autoboxes were happy just to have some damn fluid?
Bear Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Would imagine too much fluid is just as bad as not enough, also thought Merc auto box never need servicing ? On launch the 722.6 was deemed "sealed for life". This turned out to be less of a guarantee and more of a prophecy, so was revised to fluid changes every 44K miles. Generally as long as they're done by 80K at lest once, and then regularly afterwards, they should be okay if they haven't had an unrelated failure (like those pin bushings that push ATF into the ECU).
steve_earwig Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 The dipstick Mercedes sell is a curtain wire. Okay, there's a black plastic bit on with markings, but it's probably less accurate than curtain wire. Remember when autoboxes were happy just to have some damn fluid?You may have to explain to those of us without teh skillz how you know where the level is meant to be. From my standpoint 1,000 miles away I get the impression that there's been a deal of confusion over how much oil is meant to be in the 'box so you'll have to forgive me if I seem a little fingerwaggy. I started out with BW45's in Avengers, revvy revvy dumpy dumpy - oh, why'd me gearbox blowed up?
Bear Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Where's the level supposed to be? Well, you want it at 80° C before reading, ideally, which you can read either direct from the diagnostic port with the right devices, or like I do, with an Ir thermometer aimed at the sump. With the Sealey or Mercedes 722.6 dipstick (and others) there are markings for 25° and 80° - do the usual - get it warm, run though the gears leaving it in each for a few seconds, then put it in park, wait a little bit, then measure. This link explains how to get the levels when it's not up to temperature, along with a few other FAQs http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1463460-mercedes-benz-722-6-transmission-faq.html The curtain wire - you just check the mms from end to oil level and check on the chart. 65mm at 80° is your target.
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