"Who will rid me of this turbulent flippin 306 brake pain!?"

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I've got a Sealey brake pipe tool like this one:

 

 

I have managed to successfully flare the ends of steel pipes with it, you've got to get all the placca coating off the pipe and get just the right amount of 'grip' on the pipe, but it can be done. I did it to avoid having to change some pipes that run behind the front subframe on Ms_Bolx's Mk4 Astra.

[scooters]

That's a really nice flaring tool. I've only got the basic sealy one. Ok for soft metal but it won't do steel. Looked at some better ones but out of my budget just now.

 

I did read a tip on the 306 forum for taking off rusted brake nuts. The chap said you cut off the pipe and if a socket doesn't work..get a thin Allen key and push it into the severed pipe as far as it will go BEFORE you apply the moleys. This ensures the nut doesn't collapse and gives the grips more torque when turning. Looks like a good idea ill look into it later today. If I can salvage the hoses then it will save me 70 quid on a new set.

[gtd2000]

Helped my mate in Stow change his front brakes yesterday too - fortunately he has the use of his mother in laws garage. The N/S pipe had to be changed as well - getting the union off behind the front strut was a pain in the arse - nothing is in line for easy access. Then the bolt that holds in the retaining clip at the joint for the flexi and metal pipe released but would not undo fully....and you can't get into the back of it as it's inside a box section...

 

First time I've bent and replaced a brake line - have to say it's pretty easy - apart from the stupid positioning of the unions and the fact that pretty much everything is seized solid

 

Dics and pads went easily enough too - just took a bit longer figuring out how the anti-rattle clips worked - once you know it's really obvious

 

Yet another shite dreich day down here!

[scooters]

Well...finished the brake pipe replacement. It took a good day to remove the hyper stubborn line into flexing pipe nuts which were fused to the females. I didn't want to replace the flexing hoses as they were in reasonable nick and a complete set is 50quid plus.

 

They eventually succumbed to blow torch and moleys. I recommend lakeland plastics chefs torch as a cheap and very effective mini blow torch.

 

I have re routed the front lines through the wheel arches rather than under them. I've also wrapped exposed and vunerable to rubbing pipes in insulation tape.

 

All that remains is to fill the system and bleed it.

 

Whole shebang will get zinc primed.

 

One question...I noticed that the front wear indicators...electronic things ... wires have been severed on both sides .... I take it this isn't an MOT fail? This is a non abs model.

 

A few wee jobs remain...MOT wise I need to change the door locks and the drivers wipe blade.

 

Will get some photos up tomorrow.

[Polystratus]

 

They eventually succumbed to blow torch and moleys. I recommend lakeland plastics chefs torch as a cheap and very effective mini blow torch.

 

 

Have heard that they are quite useful as a mini blow torch for stubbon nuts and the like - must get one..

[ashmicro]

Draper do a mini blowtorch for about 12 quid, and a "flameless" one for round about a score.

[scaryoldcortina]

My experience of flexihoses leads me to warn you that they hate heat and tend to fuck up.. Check really carefully for bulging near the crimped join and if you get a random sticky caliper when you use the car that will be a dead flexi too.

 

Far as your MoT question goes, wear indicators ain't tested. Your flexihoses and revised pipe runs will get close scrutiny though.

[whitevanman]

Save some time, just replace the flexi's, in the long run it will be cheaper....just trust me on it

[garethj]

I have re routed the front lines through the wheel arches rather than under them. I've also wrapped exposed and vunerable to rubbing pipes in insulation tape.

O.

M.

G.

 

If a brake pipe is vulnerable to rubbing, it needs to be routed somewhere else. Insulation tape will last about 4 rubs which is fuck-all. Have a look through a hardware shop for some rubber grommets wherever it goes through a hole.

[scooters]

I have re routed the front lines through the wheel arches rather than under them. I've also wrapped exposed and vunerable to rubbing pipes in insulation tape.

O.

M.

G.

 

If a brake pipe is vulnerable to rubbing, it needs to be routed somewhere else. Insulation tape will last about 4 rubs which is fuck-all. Have a look through a hardware shop for some rubber grommets wherever it goes through a hole.

 

 

I didn't make myself clear -

 

when I say 'Vunerable to rubbing' I mean when the pipe comes to within a couple of inches of the other pipe and exposed to gunk bering thrown up from the road - all areas where it mees the body are fully grommeted and with new plastic clips with extra cable tie lashing considerably better mounted than the originals were,.

 

Anyway, another fucking disaster of a day - Roping the missus into helpling bleed the brakes I was pleased to note how solid the system is with no leaks or weeping....However, my wish to get things finished before Thursday (I go back in for another operation on Thursday), went tits up when I turned my attention to the front offside caliper only to find....no bleed nipple - it's been shorn off flush bu the last owner. It's the first time I noticed it was missing which is a right pain in the arse.

 

I spent a hour calling round factors and independents in Edinburgh and ended up having to order a couple (might as well replace both front ones) frm the Pug Dealer for £4 quid each...the bummer is that they won't arrive till Thursday.

 

I did toy with the idea of bleeding from the flexi pipe - always a bodgers solution but dismissed it.

 

So the brake repair will be on hold for a couple of weeks while I recover from surgery.

 

So I turned my attention to the other jobs and as is so often the case with these fecking french cars what should have been a tem minute job turned into an afternoon of swearing, injured hands and frustration..yes...I was working on the locks.

 

You have to ask yourself what the hell was going on in PSA when they were designing the 80s/90s cars...wonderful engines, first class handling, unlike anything these days, and yet there are facets of the design which make you ask.. what the fuck...and top of the list HAS to be the door lock mechanisms.

 

I mean you can imagine the interview...

 

HR Manager: So welcome to Puegeot, my name is Jen Luc Snot, and I am today interviewing you for ze position of 'ead lock and door wiring looms designer for all ze cars from Peugeot and Citroen...can I first ask you why you feel that you are suitable for this role..that is to say, where, monsieur, in your past do you have the experience for this type of role?

 

Donatian, Marquis de Sade: Well, Jean Luc, I specialise in exploring the darker seide of ze human expereince. I belive that through the medium of experiencing pain one can reach true extacsy....

 

J-L S: well, monsieur, why would this be relevant in a car?

 

M de S: but the car is ze perfect canvas for the sadistic car designer...you can place inacessible blts, you can sharpen metal corners so they are like razors and will cut ze flesh as soon as looked at. You can make ze fittings initially look easy to apply but it is only when you actually attempt to fit zem that you realize the impossibility of ze task. You can use trained midgets to fit parts which ze home mechanic assumes he can reach with his huge hands only to be frustrated by ze illusion.

 

J-L S: d'accord, but what do you propose to do with ze design of ze locks?

 

M de S: Ah...well obviously I would employ all the features I 'ave just mentioned but there is a piece de resistance...we make ze whole system out of pastry! Yes, we employ master patisseriers to craft shortcrust so fragile it crumbles when breathed on and zis is what we will build ze locks with!

 

J-L S: truly, you have a warped mind but wont zis effect our reputation?

 

M de S: pouff,,not at all...you see you build ze cars en angleterre and therefore you can blame the faults on ze indolence of ze Rosbifs!

 

J-L S: genius ....congratulations, you are hired!

 

or something like that....anyway I had to reattach a rod so the drivers door can be opened from the outside, and fit a new lock barrel...both jobs were a fucking nightare and I won't bore you with them suffice to say it took me 4 hours of buggering around with clips and cursing the french before I eventually sorted it.

 

I then replaced the door trip and tested it - lock worked fine but the flipping door catch rod slippedoff again and stopped working AARGGHHHHH!! just after I had replaced all the trim clips on the door card as well

 

I still haven't undersealed the car - all I have done so far is to wire brush the underside and slap on a coar of Vactan - do the same with the rust spots in the engine bay and the battery tray and wire brush the steel wheels and coat them in vactan as well.

 

MOT is due on the 5th so the car will be out of action for a couple of weeks.

 

bugger

[mnde]

Did I say the BX haz new locks and ign barrel?

 

M.

[scooters]

Did I say the BX haz new locks and ign barrel?

 

M.

 

 

thank fuck for that !

 

the 306 is pushing my love to the limit.....

 

I may bung an MOT on it and fuck it off,....mind you 306's are so cheap at the moment I'd be lucky to get more than £400 for it and tbh it's probably worth more to me as a car ....I'm sure when I get back behind the wheel of it I will fall back in love - after all the handling of these cars is their great feature

[dieselnutjob]

I only ever owned French cars. Are other makes easier then?

[scooters]

Oh yes!

 

I have wet dreams about the lock mechanisms of Volvos....

[scooters]

well, out of hospital and on the mend but still far from on top form.

 

The 306 still needs to get through its MOT and I need to fix the driver's door mechanism (again) as the flipping door rod fell off and the front brake nipples need replacing (oh joy) - both jobs will have to wait a week as I need to give my system a chance to heal.

 

In the meantime my attention is turning to the boot door lock - there is a key hole but no key so the boot is open - not ideal at all - the central locking is as per usual 306 - fubared and I have no intention of fixing it as it is a fucking nightmare to do so - old fashioned keys will suffice!

 

I've been trying to find a replacment lock with a barrel (most are central locking secured) in vain so have decided to modify the lock too fit the key - this is pretty easy and I did it with the lebaron.

 

Essentially you remove the lock barrel until you have the inner barrel with the key rods exposed - then you bung in one of your other keys and, leaving the key in, clamp the fecker in a vice - then you file down the exposed rods until they are flush - this will allow your lock to turn when that key is used.

[scooters]

Brake hassles again

 

ok - a mate of mine resumed work on the 306 today I'm not quite recovered yet anf the foolishness of the Oxford trip hasn't helped - getting fed up of this now and with the BX turning up in 10 days it is tempting to off this but that would demonstrate a lack of MORAL FIBRE - and it would be a shame to off a car so close to the finishing line but resources are getting tight.

 

OK - so when I left things I was waiting on 2 new nipples to replace the fused ones on the front. These turned up and one of them was easily replaced with blow torch but the one that is sheered off flush wouldn't budge over 4 hours of going for it with penetrating oil, heat, hammer, drill, sinking bolt, chiseil etc.

 

So we bled the brakes in order and the seize nipple from the flexihose which is very close to the nipple.

 

started the engine to bring the servo online and pressure was pretty bad on the pedal - over enthusiastic pumping of the pedal resulted in the off side slave popping its seal and pissing half a lt of flud all over the road. bugger.

 

So this morning we removed the wheel cleaned up the brake fluid from the inside of the drum (road will have to wait) and refitted the seals - the seals were in good condition - at this point I asked Dave if he had adjusted the brak4s before bleeding them and set the handbrake up - no - well good ews as it shows why the cylinder popped - so without adue the drums were adjusted and tension put on the handbrake for 3 clicks.

 

OK - so re bled the whole system - still no pressure.

 

checked every union and put even more torque on each junction - no pressure - checked the flexi hoses -all seem ok

 

any ideasthe pedal travels all the way down - there is pressure but it doesn't bite...

 

I don't suspect issues with the servo or the MC as both were working very well before this began - could the seals inside the MC have become inverted due to over enthusiastic pumping of the system?

 

any suggestions would be welcome - the pug is very close to ending up as a toaster at the moment

[scooters]

right - we're gonna bleed the MC from the unions on it - if it is working ok then we'll clamp of each flexi hose till we find where the problem is - suspect a hose due to the amount of buggering around they received during the rebuild.

 

so it looks like the car is going to need a replacement off side caliper and a set of flippin flexi hoses to boot!

 

another £100 down the kharzi - seriously - toaster time????

[whitevanman]

I sometimes find that a car needs to be running when the brakes are bled, don't ask me why, as it should make no difference. I would suspect that the problem is with the caliper as you have been drilling etc and have probably just broken through enough to allow a bit of air out/in, can you not get a second hand caliper and just make do at that if you are thinking of selling it on? there are a few of them down here at G A Whites, St Boswells and they post parts out

[gtd2000]

Now then...

 

I had a brake problem back in 1994 that to my mind defied logic....

 

Took my old AE86 to a couple of professional mechanics that moonlighted for Frews in Galashiels, mate recommended them as being very cheap but very good mechanics. *cough*

 

Picked my car up after a brake service (at the top end of Gala) up the very steep Kirk Brae....

 

Paid the guys then jumped into the car - blarted down the hill and thought "oh I better check the brakes.." pedal straight to the floor lots of swearing and female body parts later I got the car turned onto Scott street and managed to stop with the gears and handbrake...

 

Right back up the road to the two mechanics/clowns to ask what the FUCK they had done to my car - said ""oh the master cylinder has gone - often happens when you push back the pistons in the calipers and the seals go...". I said "well you might have fucking told me before setting off in the fucking car".

 

Apologies given etc etc - father and son avert a twatting from one very pissed off me...

 

I head back up the road to Stow - not in the usual AE86 style that I had become accustomed to of course and start looking for a master cylinder - prices are outrageous and manage to locate a used on via Fensport.

 

The chap that lived down the road saw me fiddling around with the car over the course of a few days and asks what the problem is - I explain new brake service, pedal goes to the floor when you press on the brakes.. He advises that we clamp of the hoses and give it a good look over.

 

After several hours he notices that the pads are actually not moving in their slides at the front - we take them out and compare them to the originals and they are a different shape that do not allow them to move when the piston pushes against them...this for some reason allows the pedal to go right dow to the floor as if there is a pressure problem...

 

Took pads back to Car Parts 4U in Gala - they takem over the road to an engineering shop and grind them to the correct shape - pads reinstalled and job done - perfect brakes...

 

Long story short - this might not be your problem but is this a possibility in your case for the pedal problem?

[Mr_Bo11ox]

How are you bleeding the brakes? I suggest starting with the rear ones, and following this procedure:

 

Open bleed nipple – push pedal down – close bleed nipple – allow pedal to come back up

 

Basically only have the bleed nipple open on the downstroke.

 

Also popping a slave cylinder seal with the drum on doesn’t sound very good, that shouldn’t be possible.... are you sure you had the seals in right?

[simmo]

I haven't read this right from the begining so if I am going over old ground I appologise. I have a suggestion regards the caliper that has the broken bleed nipple, remove pads and with the brake pedal pump out pistons (taking care not to pop them all the way out), then gently lever them back 'back bleeding' them through the master cylinder if there is undue resistance this could show up an internally swollen flexi pipe. Also bleed the way Mr B suggests but if this still doesn't work clamp off the pipes on the corners not being bled this should identify the area of the problem. With all brakes clamped, if you still have excessive pedal travel you could be looking at faulty M/cyld (could have collapsed on one circuit) or load sensor or pipework.

[Lacy]

I don't use anything other than a Gunsons Eazybleed these days. Inexpensive, easy, quick and rock solid pedal every time. I suspect you may have some air in the caliber that was bled from the hose. Clamp that one off first then see how the pedal is. Other than that it's likely down to your bleeding procedure.

[scooters]

thanks WVM -

 

well, I now have a 306 with working door locks -

 

well- except for the boot lock which is impossible so I have disconnected it - the boot is now released by pulling on a lever by the driver's seat a la Rolls/Merc etc

 

The driver's door now has a handle which opens it form the outside and a lock barrel that happily locks on the key from the outside but won't unlock on the key - I suspect I have put the lever on the wrong way round which is flippin tedious as I will have to strip all the door trim again despite checking it all worked before I put it back together - mind you - done it so often now a 5 min job.

 

And I have a brilliant new handbrake which is just as well because I stil don't have any flipin brake pressure - tried bleeding again when running - thanks WVM - didn't work though.

 

Looks like I am going to have to bite the bullet and buy a calpier and a master cylinder - pisser cos budget is very tight with the BX coming ad my miserable scrounging bastard of a client is late with the invoice payment.

 

Drove it round the block though - forgot how much I enjoy driving these and the new engine mounts have made the world of a difference - gear changes feel much more snappy

[scooters]

I don't use anything other than a Gunsons Eazybleed these days. Inexpensive, easy, quick and rock solid pedal every time. I suspect you may have some air in the caliber that was bled from the hose. Clamp that one off first then see how the pedal is. Other than that it's likely down to your bleeding procedure.

 

 

yes - that seems to be the only possible issue -

 

will order a gunson as well

[scooters]

Now then...

 

I had a brake problem back in 1994 that to my mind defied logic....

 

Took my old AE86 to a couple of professional mechanics that moonlighted for Frews in Galashiels, mate recommended them as being very cheap but very good mechanics. *cough*

 

Picked my car up after a brake service (at the top end of Gala) up the very steep Kirk Brae....

 

Paid the guys then jumped into the car - blarted down the hill and thought "oh I better check the brakes.." pedal straight to the floor lots of swearing and female body parts later I got the car turned onto Scott street and managed to stop with the gears and handbrake...

 

Right back up the road to the two mechanics/clowns to ask what the FUCK they had done to my car - said ""oh the master cylinder has gone - often happens when you push back the pistons in the calipers and the seals go...". I said "well you might have fucking told me before setting off in the fucking car".

 

Apologies given etc etc - father and son avert a twatting from one very pissed off me...

 

I head back up the road to Stow - not in the usual AE86 style that I had become accustomed to of course and start looking for a master cylinder - prices are outrageous and manage to locate a used on via Fensport.

 

The chap that lived down the road saw me fiddling around with the car over the course of a few days and asks what the problem is - I explain new brake service, pedal goes to the floor when you press on the brakes.. He advises that we clamp of the hoses and give it a good look over.

 

After several hours he notices that the pads are actually not moving in their slides at the front - we take them out and compare them to the originals and they are a different shape that do not allow them to move when the piston pushes against them...this for some reason allows the pedal to go right dow to the floor as if there is a pressure problem...

 

Took pads back to Car Parts 4U in Gala - they takem over the road to an engineering shop and grind them to the correct shape - pads reinstalled and job done - perfect brakes...

 

Long story short - this might not be your problem but is this a possibility in your case for the pedal problem?

 

the MC theory is probably spot on - pad wise - I haven't touched the pads and they were working splendidly before and are pretty new

[scooters]

How are you bleeding the brakes? I suggest starting with the rear ones, and following this procedure:

 

Open bleed nipple – push pedal down – close bleed nipple – allow pedal to come back up

 

Basically only have the bleed nipple open on the downstroke.

 

Also popping a slave cylinder seal with the drum on doesn’t sound very good, that shouldn’t be possible.... are you sure you had the seals in right?

 

 

cheers Mr B - I will have another go at this next week -

 

The seals on the slave look pretty new - I hadn't touched the slaves. I think the slave popped because the adjuster had slipped cos Dave didn't adjust the brakes before brining on the handbrake tension so things were a bit loose in that drum. I took over and stripped down, cleaned and replaced the drum - adjusted the shoes with the HB off then tensioned the cables - everything solid and no leaks from there since.

[Volksy]

Not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs but as far as I know the proceedure for bleeding brakes is as follows.

 

If the rears are drums, adjust them up so the rear drums just about lock up, then back off a couple of clicks on the adjuster so they rotate pretty much free again. This should stop the rear wheel cylinders popping when you start to bleed. Adjust the handbrake up after, so you have about 4 or 5 clicks on the ratchet, if the rear shoes are adjusted ok (as above) then you should be able to take up any slack on the adjustment inside the car.

 

If you've fitted new pads in the front, make sure the pads are in, calipers on tight etc.

 

Always start with the wheel furthest away from the master cylinder, so top up the brake fluid reservoir. Give the brake pedal 3 or 4 pumps and HOLD the pedal down. Whilst it is held down have your assistant loosen off the bleed nipple normally half a turn is enough to let any air out. Tighten the bleed nipple, (do not lift the pedal up until the bleed nipple is tightened up again) just nipped up should be ok, and again repeat 3 or 4 pumps on the pedal, and HOLD down. bleed again. After this see if there is any 'pedal' (meaning resistance on the brake pedal, however insignificant or squishy). If there is, Push the brake pedal to the floor, and HOLD, get your assistant to bleed again, and repeat until the fluid is coming out pretty cleanly - i.e. not spaffing everywhere. NOTE: there may not be a huge amount of 'pedal' as the rest of the system is full of air. and it may be more of a dribble at the nipple end than a surge.

 

N.B. Keep checking the brake fluid and topping up, as running low will just introduce air in the system again.

 

Move on to the next brake, next furthest away, so the other rear wheel, repeat above. After move on to the front wheel furthest away from the master cylinder (normally the NSF, but not always) and repeat. Once you have bled them all, you should have a semi-decent 'pedal', but you'll probably have to repeat the whole process to improve it.

 

The easybleed kits are good, especially at charging a 'dry system' but it is possible to do without,

 

Let me know how you get on.

[scooters]

ta Volksy - it never hurts to go through all the steps again.

 

this is the first time I have charged a dry system rather than just bled the brakes - it doesn't help that I don't have a competant assistant - I really need to be at the pedal so I can feel what is going on -

 

I think an easybleed kit might be the best idea as forcing fluid through the system will no doubt drive out all the bubbles -

 

the caliper with the siezed nipple will no doubt have air as well

[Guest Len H]

If you allowed the system to dry completely there'll be air in the master cylinder that you'll not be able to bleed easily, I think you have to remove it and bleed it on the bench.

[scooters]

If you allowed the system to dry completely there'll be air in the master cylinder that you'll not be able to bleed easily, I think you have to remove it and bleed it on the bench.

 

Good call again. Bench is a must there is no access to the mc union s in situ.

 

Also when I push the pedal there is a gurgling noise and sensation.

 

Ive never bled one on the bench before there are hundreds of suggestions out there any tips anyone?

 

Thanks again