setting up points?

[dieselnutjob]

I got down the end of my road yesterday and my 604 started running on three cylinders.

Also the rev counter died.

Today I started it up and all six were there.

I did notice the rev counter packing up a few times during the winter once the engine was warm as well.

The strange thing about this engine is that it's a 90 degree V6, more like a V8 with two cylinders missing (design change due to 70s oil crisis). In order to get around the uneven firing it has two sets of points, two coils and a rotor arm with two centre contacts. Basically it's like two three cylinder engines nailed together.

It means that when one of the ignition systems packs in you can drive for a while on half an engine.

Anyway because the rev counter packed in it would seem to me that it's the LT side that must have the problem.

I have never touched the points in three years of ownership, although I did fit a set of electronic ignition amplifiers. I suppose that as the engine warms up the points clearance must be too far out now preventing half the engine working?

I have never actually fixed a petrol engine before, and neither do I know how to set up points either. There are a new set somewhere in the boot.

I also nicked a dwell meter thing out of my dad's garage that he hasn't touched in 20 years.

What do I do now? The only haynes manual for this car is in French and I can't find anything in there about points. The twin points thing seems to be unique to the 604 as later 505s and Volvos seem to have an electronic module and no points.

[dieselnutjob]

forgot about my Renault 30 Haynes manual. It also has the dual points.

Bedtime reading.....

[Pete-M]

You'll need a meter with a dwell reading. Set 'em both to the right dwell and you'll be fine. Ignore the gap, set the dwell.

[garethj]

Measure the dwell angle on the distributor that's working - live goes to the coil wire that leads to the distributor and ground goes to chassis ground. Make a note of that dwell angle. (Your dwell meter might not have a switch for 3 cylinders, so just use the setting for 6)

 

You can measure the dwell angle with the engine running, or even when you're cranking it on the starter, just crank it long enough fo the reading to settle.

 

Now put the dwell meter on the distributor that's poorly and measure the dwell. If the number is too big, the points gap is too small and vice versa.

 

Engine switched off. Take the distributor cap off and any dust cover, pull the rotor arm off and look at the points. They all work basically the same way, there's a locking screw that holds a fixed contact in place, and moving contact that rides on lobes on the distributor shaft. Put a spanner on the crankshaft pulley nut and turn the engine clockwise, you'll see the gap open and close as the engine turns.

 

When the gap is at its biggest stop turning the engine and you can measure the gap with a feeler gauge. It should just slide in gently, not forcing the contacts apart. Like hasty congress with a woman of easy virtue

 

Make the feeler gauges bigger or smaller by a bit, then loosen the points locking screw and put the feeler gauge in the gap, making sure the moving side is pressing against the cam. Then tighten up the locking screw, put the rotor arm and cap back on and try with the dwell meter.

 

It might take a few attempts, but take your time and you'll nail it.

 

There's a fair chance it's the ignition module btw but try the dwell first.

[dieselnutjob]

the ignition amps are easily bypassed. they just pass a small current through the points and then use transistors to actually fire the coil. It's simply a case of reconfiguring some spade connectors.

 

Reading the R30 Haynes manual you set the dwell to be correct on one bank and then set the timing on that bank. Then you set the points on the other bank to get the timing right on the other bank. If this results in a dwell that's hopelessly out of wack then you have a problem.... This has to be dealt with (reading between the lines) with an "eccentricity" adjustment but it doesn't tell you how to do it.

 

I need to buy a timing strobe to do this.

[simmo]

Its been a while since I did points on a 604, but have a memory of setting these up with two timing lights. Do these have type of points you can adjust while running (7mm lock nut on the outsideof the casing)? If not we probablywould of had the dizzy out and set up on a distributer test bed. I can also remember there being something about the distributor cams not being equally spaced but its v hazy.

 

Its worth checking the rotor arm as it is possible to have a fault on one circuit

[dieselnutjob]

yes I think one set of points is externally adjustable

the idea is:-

1. set dwell on points that aren't externally adjustable

2. set timing on that bank by rotating distributor

3. set timing on the other bank by tweaking the externally adjustable points

4. measure dwell of the externally adjustable points and if they are too far out your day is ruined

 

timing light in Halfords: £45

timing light on ebay: £18

 

wating for ebay timing light to arrive in the post.....

[garethj]

3. set timing on the other bank by tweaking the externally adjustable points

4. measure dwell of the externally adjustable points and if they are too far out your day is ruined

Shirely that’s the wrong way around? You always do points (dwell angle) first, then timing second. If the points gap is out the timing is wrong anyway.

timing light in Halfords: £45

timing light on ebay: £18

 

wating for ebay timing light to arrive in the post.....

Or get yourself upto Flitwick one evening this week and you can borrow mine

[dieselnutjob]

the 604 has two sets of points but it doesn't have two distributors.

it's like trying to set the timing of two separate engines, but on the second engine you can't twist the distributor, so how do you set the timing?

Answer: you sacrifice perfect dwell angle to get the timing right, because there are actually two ways to adjust timing, one is to turn the distributor and the other is to change the points gap.

On the second bank you can't use the first method so you have to use the second.

[garethj]

the 604 has two sets of points but it doesn't have two distributors.

There's two sets of points inside the same distributor? I'm signing off here, cos you're on your own

it's like trying to set the timing of two separate engines, but on the second engine you can't twist the distributor, so how do you set the timing?

Answer: you sacrifice perfect dwell angle to get the timing right, because there are actually two ways to adjust timing, one is to turn the distributor and the other is to change the points gap.

On the second bank you can't use the first method so you have to use the second.

Sounds perfectly reasonable if not perfectly sensible design to start with...

[simmo]

OK still a bit hazy but I think the way we used to do it then was set dwell on the set you can't externally adjust, set the other points roughly right. Start up get the tick over to the prescribed idle speed I am guessing about 900-950rpm (with the vacuum pipe off, I think). Set the timing on the adjusted points then switch the timing light to a lead on the other set.

The timing will be out on this half unless you've fluked it, you then adjust the other set of points with it running until the timing marks line up.

If the idle speeds up you will need to keep it in the limits and recheck the original half's timing. May need to tweak the timing between the two sets (that's why we used to use two t/lights)

Probably not the official Peugeot method but worked.

[FredTransit]

Bump for a real thread.....

[dieselnutjob]

timing light appeared yesterday but i doubt i'll have time to play before the family holiday

this one might have to wait a couple of weeks

[ashmicro]

Sounds like a right old 'mare. Electronic dizzy, anyone?!!

[dieselnutjob]

There's a fair chance it's the ignition module btw but try the dwell first.

Gareth wins!

I swapped the ignition amps and the fault moved with the amp.

They are just a Velleman kit so I can get a new one from Maplin for £9.99

It works for a couple of minutes and then quits so I guess one of the components is getting too hot.

[garethj]

There's a fair chance it's the ignition module btw but try the dwell first.

Gareth wins!

Woo-hoo!

 

Operating under the bonnet is quite a harsh environment, it's the worst of the heat and cold, with loads of water splashes and some noxious fumes thrown in for good measure. Old electronics don't stand up well to it.

 

Neither do new electronics sometimes

[simmo]

Glad the 604 is sorted,

bit off topic but I had a look at an MG just round the corner from you last week (Tavastock or Tiverton Road) the chap also has a Ford Pop 100E with a Pinto do you know him?

[dieselnutjob]

no, I don't know many locals

 

I changed the ignition amp ( http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=3162 )

and it seams to be okay now

I mounted the pair of amps in front of the front wheel arch / inner wing so of near the battery

I was trying to get it them as far as possible from the exhaust manifold

I notice that the rad fan blasts them with air from the rad all the time so I suppose that's pretty warm air if the rad is hot

Maybe I should relocate the amps inside the car up behind the glove box or something

I also measured the dwell angles and the were both about 95 deg which is a bit high

I guess that a dwell angle that's too big means that the points are closed longer than they should be so need opening up?

Also changed the rotor arm and dizzy cap as I could see signs of wear

[Albert Ross]

Dwell of 95 degrees for a 3 pot ain't too bad. If it was a 4 pot, you'd have an issue. That leaves 25 degrees per pot open, so a 4 pot would show 65 degrees each for the same period of "open-ness"............. (Trusting you have two sets of breakers in there)

[dieselnutjob]

Trusting you have two sets of breakers in there

yes it has two breakers and two coils, the rotor arm has two separate conductive bits, and the dizzy cap has two king leads

 

it really is two 3 cylinder engines nailed together