Yugoslavian Ami.., continuing on from 'now-autoshites-flimsy-bodied Shitroen'

[rrsix]

You may not have achieved all of what you wanted to but it looks a hell of a lot better already. I'm sure once you have a new plan of attack you'll get it licked in no time 

[Bfg]

Saturday

 

Visited Janez at 2cvKeza yesterday to discuss work needed verses costs.  As I thought he'll replace the two front floors complete, the lower bulkhead and cross box section, the two sills, and also the ends of the rear cross box section. He'll also do patchwork repairs on the inner rear arches, and where needed on the bulkhead.  He'll also fabricate new, and fit the missing rear suspension bump stops under those rear wheel arches.  Also the transverse boot-floor brace,  and jacking points.

 

The external faces of the lower A-posts had been repair in the past also, and one side is a little high.  He'll open up the top skin of the chassis and investigate what the damage is inside to the webs.  Aside from this the steering rack has a lot of slack and the front right steering hub has been hammered to take up vertical play. He hopes to find replacements for these parts and do what's necessary to put things in good order and well as to service axle and wheel bearings, brakes, etc.   I've also asked him to refit the fuel tank and to fit an electric fuel pump (I've supplied) and filter low-down nearby. 

 

All in all it's going to be far more expensive than I'll foreseen when I bought the car,  but after 9 days of scraping and investigating the car myself - I also have a good idea regarding how much work will be needed.  New panels add up to almost 800 euros. Then there'll be paint, rubberised under-seal, and mechanical parts, and of course taxes.

 

Too late to get out of the car now, and I'm not the type of person to bodge it to sell..   I'm sure this old shitroen will be a good & hopefully fun car in the end but it'll take time and money to get it there. 

 

Now it's in the hands of Janez.  He's promised photos as he works ...and so I hope to post a few on here.

 

Here a link to 2cvkeza website and in particular linking to a quick and ready lower bulkhead repair on his own Ami-8 Break (estate) http://www.2cvkeza.com/tomos-ami8-break-1970.html

 

what an extraordinary amount of travel on those rear wheels ! ??

[RayMK]

Thank you for your candid account of this foreign adventure and restoration.  The financial pain and frequent unwelcome surprises do appear to be fairly typical for those that dare to take on such projects.  Let's hope that the cheeky character of Amis will shine through and continue to convince you that it is all worthwhile.  

[Bfg]

Thanks RayMK,  I totally endorse your comments..   'Autoshite' is great entertainment and then again often informative &/or otherwise encouraging.  Sometimes though our best laid plans don't work out.., and to my mind it's OK to share those too  ...as long as it's not all f'ing whiiiiinnning..   (I hope I've not done too much of that,  even on the days where you read of my disappointment,  frustrations  &/or worries).  

 

...There are good days and there are shite days in life..,  and I can only do my best - within limited capabilities (physical & technical ability,  experience,  financial,  planning  & resources  ...or simply in dealing with the swing of luck). 

 

I put my hand up .. I may (or perhaps may not !?)  have made a bad judgement call,  but what the heck..,  I'll learn from those.. 

 

And, when I balance this with how it's shown what really great friends I've got,  and what a beautiful country this is to visit.  And of course - although the resources I have are limited - they are not stretched to point of preventing my putting food on the table.   No, this Easter I thank God for 'everything'.  Both Good and what appears to Not at all good..  for without both and everything inbetween - what an easy and really quite uninteresting experience buying this car would be. ! ?  

 

Put another way.. I could have hired a trailer and collected the car, and two years of restoration later I might have said 'this is the Ami I bought and collected from Slovenia'.. but where's the adventure in that !? 

 

"Let's hope that the cheeky character of Amis will shine through and continue to convince you that it is all worthwhile."   As it turns out ; I could have bought a decent Mercedes TDi estate,  a Jaguar saloon,  or one of thousands of other really competent cars for less than 1/2 the price this shitty Citroen will cost me..      ..But I deliberately didn't want prestige,  nor sporty pretensions.   I wanted a fun car,  a small but comfortable car (for my 6'5" 230lb stature).., to go anywhere - so something I could fix by the roadside.  

 

Most of all though - I used to really enjoy driving ..but somewhere that joy got lost,  and so I really didn't want just another boring car.  I think Ami's 'cheeky character'  sums it up pretty darn well..     As long as this car doesn't bury me..  then in time I reckon it could be just that. 

[Bfg]

on a lighter note.. here a couple of photos taken of the chassis underside as seen at 2cvKeza's .. (I had previously pressure-washed it)

above ..from the front - looking aft

 

above ..just a little way back is the underskin - below the rusty foot wells

 

above ..from the rear end - looking forward (without petrol tank)

..the boot floor's transverse beam is not original, and will be replaced

...the jacking points will also be replaced.

[Bfg]

For those interested in the history of Citroen's Yugoslavian production...  I've added a  p.p.s.  to my post of 11th March..  (p.3)

[Bfg]

Happy Easter Monday to you all.

 

Today I've packed up a box to ship back to England, via Luggage Mule.  Crappy website they have when it takes ages to find the max size of box I could use..  It was under 'Terms and Conditions' ?   They've also made a couple of mistakes in the return address label. The first being in my address : 'Suffo' rather than 'Suffolk' and the second in Jani's (the collection) address saying Slovakia rather than Slovenia.   To me - these things neither inspire confidence nor convey a sense of 'care and attention' to detail I'd have hoped for with a company handling my 'luggage'.

 

Anyway I needed to know the sizes because what I'm sending back is different to what I sent out. Outbound I sent my tools and new parts, but ...as I yet need to put the car together again - I still need those here.  So, for the return parcel I'm sending back used parts, and just my power tools. 

 

Janez of 2cvKeza has very kindly given me a pair of scruffy grp rear wings for the Ami.  I gladly accepted these because I'm considering cutting cut-outs in the rear wings, and didn't want to chop my original steel ones up.  Below is a photo of a really neat (i.m.o.) Ami-super which caught my eye during an internet search,  and then again of an M35 coupe (Wankel engined Ami) ...each featuring cut-outs of the rear wheel arches.   

 

 

I'd also been given by Tomo (the seller of my car) a pair of door cards and door pockets, as well as a set of used but good condition headliners.  My super's headliners have drooped at the back and so I was again glad to accept these for sake of quick and easy replacement.   I'm keeping the large headliner piece here to change on my car, but the door cards and pockets I'm taking advantage of the opportunity to send these to the UK rather than to have them in the car for our drive across Europe. 

[RayMK]

The rotary's cutouts look smart.  Not so sure about the other one, or its wheels.  Thin tyres work well on a car which leans  so much.  Perhaps they've also destroyed the independence of the suspension with fat anti-roll bars.  Why have an Ami if you don't like its character?  Some people are strange, as they've every right to be  .

[Bfg]

I'd have to agree with you about the blue Ami's wheels. Personally, I don't like these white wide ones, and so plan to keep to the skinny tyres - which reportedly work very well, would be lighter to steer,  less unprung weight,  and have a lower rolling resistance.  But personally I rather like this car's flared round arches. Those together with losing the bumpers update the car.   Of course the purest would hate it,  but as a time served Design Engineer I wouldn't have had much of a career if I'd fallen into that category   (but.., I do respect these old cars and the purest..,  so wouldn't want to chop things up, or do irreversible mods).

 

"Why have an Ami if you don't like its character ?"  Black & White ..my life isn't.  I can like / appreciate / respect 90% of something  ..but still would like to change aspects of the other 10%.   Surely.., one of the beauties of cheap,  mass-produced,  rusted out,  &/or already hacked about  Autoshite  is that one can do so ...without being so concerned about 'heritage'. ?

[Bfg]

That's very kind - Thank you. 

 

please note :  I'd be glad for yourself or anyone to join in the conversation..   

[mat_the_cat]

Can't add much, other than to say I'm enjoying it too (both the ups and downs - the ups seem more 'earned' if there's downs to go with them) and look forwards to reading about the road trip back!

[DeeJay]

Most enjoyable thread.

I don't comment much because I know bugger all about the Ami.

Or Slovenia for that matter.

[spartacus]

From the beginning I thought this would be a real adventure, I wasn't wrong! Deep down didn't you know that your costings were based on AS style 'man maths', and that it would cost far more than you convinced yourself? When it's done it'll be worth it, a well documented adventure to Eastern Europe to fettle and collect a car, it's a dream come true for most of us. Keep at it and keep the updates coming.

[jonny69]

I think you need to change your username from Bfg to Complete Loony.

 

Because you're completely loony

[Bfg]

My buying a Citroen here were based on the precept that an Ami super (heavier construction than it's A-series siblings) from the south of Slovenia would not be nearly as rusty as anything I might find (for the price) in northern Europe.  And judging by the external panels & doors I'm sure that this is correct.  Of course Citroen's use of loose-fitting rubber mats in these cars does nothing to let water in the footwells dry out - but still owners of many cars and vans do this.   The car is now over 40 years old, and as DeliveryBoy points out - it was at the cheapest end of the market when new,  so to have survived as well as it has is possibly a testimony to something !

 

I'm thinking ...a large part of the rust problem ought to be resolved with pu sealer (to stop water ingress inbetween spot weld panels) and a frequent dosing of wax oil.   Janez recommends wax oiling immediately after the panels have been replaced and any painting done., And then again the following year., And again thereafter every three or four years. 

 

 

"When it's done it'll be worth it, a well documented adventure to Eastern Europe to fettle and collect a car, it's a dream come true for most of us".  If my ambitions for this car and my early-retirement work out...  then this is just the beginning of the story..  adventures await us

 

I'm wondering... might the 'g' in Bfg  stands for goon !?  

[forddeliveryboy]

"the pics don't suggest to me complete floors and sills"

 

I think it'll come down to economy of time - v - the parts.  I'd have thought ..from my limited experience that a professional can spend hours doing patchwork repairs only to achieve a half-arse job,  or you simply cut it out, and rebuild it on jig - with all new panels.. and the time taken is not so differenct, only the cost of panels ?  But then.. the big saving is in the time taken to clean up the shitty old panels and all the crevices before paint - v - having already clean zinc-plated panels that just need a wipe over before extching primer and rubberised underseal.   ?

 

..other pictures here on Dropbox < https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fq2zdo8zfdi2qka/AAA8KigspWHHG_s9KE50ExNsa?dl=0 >

 

 

Too right, better replace an entire panel rather than mess about patching left right and centre, but that shell looks bloody solid. Quarter floors, lower bulkhead box, sill sections and a bit of patching on the inner rear wings is not bad for such an old car. Dollywobbler's 2cv'll be onto its next massive reconstruction before that Ami rots through! It does look as if some local youth have rallied it round a field, though - soil stuffed in the front of the chassis and all those scrape marks on the underside...

 

Good luck with the rest of the work, it looks as if you're aiming high. The return trip should provide a good collection thread - when are you planning it?

[Bfg]

"Good luck with the rest of the work, it looks as if you're aiming high. The return trip should provide a good collection thread - when are you planning it?"

 

Thanks.. "aiming high"  probably comes from my being a Design Engineer responsible for my work (including how that effects the safety of our customers)..,  and because I get pissed off doing the same job twice..  doing the same job twice..  And/or especially when (in my most humble opinion ) I thinks something is dumb.. and that includes almost anything to do with bureaucrats.., or dumb design (..which has been put into production).

 

"return trip - when ?"   We're presently in the hands of 2cvKeza..  The brief has not changed.. ie., Janez is to correct the body structure and the A-series mechanicals.  He has an all-black Charleston to finish by mid-April,  and whatever day to day mechanical / garage needs come through his door - before he can get a straight run on the Super.  We'll need to wait to see when I get the car back,  and then again when it's convenient for me to come back and stay with Jani & family here in Slovenia.

 

Next stage for me and the 'dream team' is to paint the underside of the wings, and to put the car back together. And while we're at it to do whatever I need to do to sort out electrics and drive-train mechanicals.  I'll have to do these things myself - to minimise the bill.  Of course I've yet to purchase & fit a new exhaust system,  plus wheels and tyres,  before we get the car inspected and legal. 

 

Then, as with the old Sunbeam m/c's I used to restore professionally - I expect to put a few hundred miles on the clock..  while doing finer adjustments and sorting out any teething problem, followed by an oil change.  And then also to rectify the things that decide "now's the time to be a pain in the arse" even though I've not touched it. 

 

So, in answer to your question  ..don't know !

 

watch this space (patiently)

[rrsix]

I'd have to agree with you about the blue Ami's wheels. Personally, I don't like these white wide ones, and so plan to keep to the skinny tyres - which reportedly work very well, would be lighter to steer,  less unprung weight,  and have a lower rolling resistance.  But personally I rather like this car's flared round arches. Those together with losing the bumpers update the car.   Of course the purest would hate it,  but as a time served Design Engineer I wouldn't have had much of a career if I'd fallen into that category   (but.., I do respect these old cars and the purest..,  so wouldn't want to chop things up, or do irreversible mods).

 

"Why have an Ami if you don't like its character ?"  Black & White ..my life isn't.  I can like / appreciate / respect 90% of something  ..but still would like to change aspects of the other 10%.   Surely.., one of the beauties of cheap,  mass-produced,  rusted out,  &/or already hacked about  Autoshite  is that one can do so ...without being so concerned about 'heritage'. ?

 

Yes I'd agree. It doesn't sound like you want to to do anything too drastic anyway. At the end of the day It's your car do what you like with it. You have "saved" and are returning it to a much better condition than it was.

 

To miss quote Groove Armada: If every Ami looked the same we'd get tired of looking at another. 

[jonny69]

Gentle drive home from Slovenia will be a convenient running in for the engine

[forddeliveryboy]

Something worth mentioning is the engine - the only thing which is likely to let you down is cheap oil or cheap bits like a rotor arm. 8,000 revs is very easy especially with the littlest version of the flat four, so aftermarket parts are a no-no. Intermotor rotor arms can disintegrate at little more than 6,500 rpm, for example. Cheap oil can lead to premature wear of the camshafts, as found by general garages in France in the early seventies who ignored Citroën advice.

 

For a while, they tried to suggest it was a component problem until the company pointed out that none of the dealer-serviced cars suffered. I'd use nothing other than Total's 15W40 mineral oil, often marketed 'for diesels'. It's superb stuff and works better in these air cooled engines better than anything else I've tried. I use it in the flat twins, flat fours and on the inline fours, including on my ancient Traction. Its new owner tried a 'vintage' oil as recommended by a vintage oil supplier and it broke.

 

The sweetest flat four I've known was a 300,000+ mile Ami Super unit, which was thrashed mercilessly under the bonnet of a Dyane. 95mph was cruising speed, 8000rpm through the gears. I had to weld in a couple of bracing members for the windscreen since the panel was a little rotten, I suggested to the owner that having a windscreen hit you in a 100mph gale wasn't advisable. I spoke to the previous custodian and he'd known the engine for years and years, confirming all it'd had done was the generic oil leak sorted. 

 

The small four in the Super was known for over-cooling so use the grill muff when cold (anything much under 10C) but remove for sustained flat out running or long passes unless it's sub-zero. Check that the carb warming pipes aren't gummed up with loads of baked-on carbon - they should ring a little when tapped with something metallic. If not, warming-up will take even longer, I've removed a build up from a 'carefully driven' engine by heating these pipes up with a blowtorch, then quenching with water.

 

They need 3,500 rpm+ to come alive, there's another 4,000 or more, depending on how sweet a particular engine is, of useable power. Originally the red line was to be set at something like 8,500, but the marketing dept said no - people had enough trouble understanding Citroëns and the GS was cheap to buy. I think the valve timings were adjusted accordingly, but they're said to run fine up to 10,000 rpm. I've limited them to 8,500.

 

Since it may be a few months before you're on the road, here's a little taster.

 

 

[forddeliveryboy]

Interesting fact No.333

 

The company changed the shape of the combustion chambers in the flat four to make the engine quieter at idle, since it was destined for a small, luxury car - the GS. Downside was fuel consumption got worse.

 

 

No.878

 

The Ami Super's engine output was less than a GS, strange given the lack of HP pump. The lost horses vanished in a highly restrictive exhaust. 

[Bfg]

Yesterday evening I flew in to be greeted with no wind and a beautiful sunset.  Today hailstones remind me that the heating oil has run out.   You gotta laugh 

 

"Gentle drive home from Slovenia will be a convenient running in for the engine "   Ha !!  I was hoping to head straight across into the Dolomite mountains to have some fun. This is not a Ford Anglia

 

ForDelivery : thanks for great postings..  I've only lifted the one cam cover so far - and there is discernable wear on the lobes ..disappointing for a low mileage car, but they're still serviceable.  

 

 

Both my car's carb-heater pipes have holes and due to be replaced.  I'd very much like to do away with them - because all these pipes are ugly, but I'd also read that the early cars had cold running issues. 

 

Rotor arm and distributor cap I've replace for new Valeo items.  New points are also Valeo, & the HT leads (expensive ! - bought from Chevronics) I'll fit later ...together with the Bransden Boyer ignition unit..  I've also on order a new vaccum-advance diaphram unit (bolted on top of the distributor)  from Chevronics as mine is clearly defunct. 

 

NOS mechanical fuel pump arrived while I was away, so that'll travel with me when I go back.

 

Today, I'm facing bills to pay in Euro's for trailering costs from the coast up to to 2cvKeza in the north of Slovenia, also for the rental cost of the holiday apartment, and then the first stage payment to 2cvKeza.    Through Money-Saving-Expert I found TransferWise : https://transferwise.com/?utm_source=MSM&utm_medium=comparison_chart&ircid=985&utm_campaign=MoneySupermarket+Standard+Link&utm_source=MoneySupermarket&utm_medium=affiliate which looks to be much cheaper than transferring money direct from bank to bank,  but the forthcoming referendum's effect on the GBP : Euro exchange rate continue to frustrate my criteria for an inexpensive car.  

 

Today's (31st March) GBP : Euro exchange rate

 

Again, if anyone has a (polite) suggestion then I'm open eared. 

[jonny69]

Huh, well it's not a massive plummet, only from 1.27 to 1.26. If you're worried about it really dropping, I guess you could exchange a whole bunch of money now. But then in 6 months time it might be up at 1.3 or 1.4 - you just never know.

[Bfg]

"Huh, well it's not a massive plummet, only from 1.27 to 1.26".   ... you're right it's not a huge plummet but in when I bought the car in November it was 1.40 euro to the GBP,  which at today values would have been almost 80 per 1000 euros more expensive. 

 

Today graph is just a spotlight on part of one day's trading..,  and the direction things continue to go..  The drop from 1.27 to 1.26 (100 pips) presently represents 6.25 euros per 1000 more expensive..  The bill I'm facing for bodywork is double what I paid for the car, and then I've had / will have other costs - so these points soon add up to hundreds of pounds.

 

 

 

p.s. Heating oil ordered .. thankfully that was £135 less than last year   

[Bfg]

.

"The Ami Super's engine output was less than a GS, strange given the lack of HP pump. The lost horses vanished in a highly restrictive exhaust."  

                It's only rated a couple of HP less ...and surely that's as much to do with the marketing spec rather than "a highly restrictive exhaust"  ..but still what might you suggest.?

 

My car's manifolds, bottom front pipes & front cross-box,  and the tail pipe are (I believe) OK.   But the two carb-heater pipes, the pipe from cross-box to the under-car silencer, and the silencer itself are shot / need to be replaced.

[Bfg]

Janez (2cvKeza) kindly sent me some cuttings / photos of the Ami super,   when it was being sold as a new car under the Cimos banner.  Thought you guys might like to have look..    From the Soviet Block* period - it doesn't look so oppressive as Western propaganda might have had us believe.  

 

note the cut away engine cowlings & fan 

 

Generally panel fit is pretty good though..

 

 

As I understand it the applied graphics (stripe) down the Ami-super was introduced in 1975,  so each of these are either from 1975 or 76 (when production came to an end).  Most Cimos Citroens appear to be either white or beige.  **

 

 

*  p.s.  Janez has dropped me a line,  as he's also an avid reader of this post   and very politely corrects me, insomuch as Yugoslavia wasn't in fact part of the Soviet Block.   He writes  " Jugoslavija was not in Soviet block,  as well as it was not in Western block.  It was open to both sides . In that time we didn't see us as Soviet or Western ... We were just Yugoslavs from Yugoslavia And we had happy life until nationalism powered by western/east interests exploded in 90`s ...  Anyway... it is an old story that some of us keep remember on sunny days drinking beer and enjoying real Balkan BBQ "

 

I had mistakenly assumed from the fears of my friend - Jani's Christian family, regarding the country's former communism and of neighbours reporting to authorities any dissension - that Yugoslavia had been part of the Communist Walsall Pact (cold war counterbalance to NATO).  I now see (via a Google search) that this was not so,  but rather the six countries was the SFR Yugoslavia (Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). 

 

Should you wish to know more of their modern history - then here's a link to the fountain of 21st century western pop knowledge < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia >   NB., old school communists are still very powerful in business and beauracracy in Slovenia, although now motivated by personal power & self gain, rather than anything to do with the underlying people-principles of communist doctrins.   

 

 

** Like you mentioned on forum.. most of AMI Super from Cimos were beige, white, and also bright Yellow (stated as "SonÄno rumena" - Sunny Yellow) ."

 

Thanks Janez.   He  has kindly sent a few more great photos and adverts from this period which I'll post in due course.

[forddeliveryboy]

Those lobes should be fine, what year is the car? Today, if you knacker an engine with the wrong oil people take it on the chin, back then manufacturers were expected to produce an engine which would run on the cheapest stuff without complaining. Citroën further hardened the cams to keep everyone happy, those on that 300,000 mile engine were fine and I doubt very much it had always had the oil changed as often as necessary, or with the right stuff.

 

French manufacturers often restricted their engines outputs with the exhaust, to fit into their various taxation classes. When the exhaust on the old Traction fell away, its replacement looked as if it would last 18 months and the price was exorbitant. So I used a modern system with proportions I reckoned suitable with a front silencer much nearer the front - performance was signficantly better, the car much better to drive and the wallet only £60 lighter. Fifteen years later, it's still on and still shiny.

 

GS, as used on the 1015 but thought to be a bit restrictive for the 1222 and 1299/1301

 

Ami Super, note the much smaller diameter pipe

[Bfg]

...strange that Citroen should have used two silencer boxes and an extra pipe on the more economical Ami super ?

 

"The company changed the shape of the combustion chambers in the flat four to make the engine quieter at idle, since it was destined for a small, luxury car - the GS. Downside was fuel consumption got worse."  ...when do you reckon this happened.?  I ask because I understood the flat-four was an all new engine,  with original and subsequent sizes all intended for the GS.

 

 

NB. I've added a p.s. to my last post, regarding the political situation in Yugoslavia during the 1970's.

 

Janez (2cvKeza) writes " On monday I am starting with your AMI and I will start sending you some "horror" pictures"   ..watch this space.. 

 

He's enclosed more adverts and photo from Cimos..  Thanks   ..here's one

 

AMI SUPER

1015 cc

140 km/h

18 seconds : 0-100 km/h  (0 - 60 mph)

AVAILABLE  IMMEDIATELY

WITH ALL OUR DEALERS

CIMOS

CITROËN

[Bfg]

 

For those who love French Autoshite,  there's some to spot here. 

Ain't it great..,  the way the Ami Super is seen overtaking Peugeot & Renault

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzxphi_citroen-ami-8-super_auto

[forddeliveryboy]

The combustion chamber shape was altered pre-production for a quieter idle over all-out economy, from what people whose lives seem to involve little other than these machines have told me. There's also the feeling the Super's collector box at the front is restrictive for such a fast-spinning engine, although it should improve low end pull. Most GS/a exhausts I've seen have had a straight-thru silencer in that centre pipe, btw - seems the 1015's didn't.